List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[gringo2011]

In a much shorter timeframe, each of the first 3 you’d mentioned have shown more than Windhager as a ball winning mid and none of those mentioned are asking for the apparent $850k.

Don't complain when we are continually shit then. If we keep leaking players as fast as we bring them in and just as they are set to pay off after developing them, we will stay in a cycle of losing.

 

[Holy Hunter Clark]

 

[Yawkey way]

John Elliott and the Paper bag issues back in the mid 90's ruined Carlton

True but it’s a long time ago.

 

[gringo2011]

Would we get a first rounder for him?


Seeing as we would need to trade him.

Doubt it but that's because we rub a stain on players. If he was a kid at GWS or another good system he'd be getting hyped.

 

[gringo2011]

John Elliott and the Paper bag issues back in the mid 90's ruined Carlton

It worked for years, They were dumb enough to get caught. They struggled to adjust to being honest.

 

[Yawkey way]

Poorly run clubs do stupid things, this is us.

The Deshaun Watson trade helped set a new foundation for the Texans, here's a look at the final pieces

The 2024 NFL draft rendered the final pieces of Houston's 2022 trade with the Browns.

www.espn.com.au

 

[gringo2011]

Wilkie consistently plays in a key defensive role because he consistently does his job.

Windy is yet to be consistent in the role he wants most to play. MIDFIELD.

I’ve never said he hasn’t improved, in fact I’ve noted his improvement.

In the same breathe you can find players who matched his early career progress and made it as mids, you can find plenty who’ve done so and haven’t.

He’s not there yet.

Of course he isn't there yet but as out fourth highest possession getter and one that has genuinely made a massive amount of progress it would be absolutely ridiculous to lose him. I'm not seeing where he's demanded anything from the club other than what he thinks is fair money.

He's been thrown around the field and been solid in everything often sacrificing himself for the side as a tag. You want him gone because he isn't Dangerfield, I want him kept because I think he's an important piece of the puzzle even if he doesn't end up more than a a solid B grader.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I really don't get why the club is going after Aleer, particularly on the money that's being reported.

TDK I do get, because he allows us to trade Marshall, and he's the right age for our list build. Getting him is similar to getting a younger Ro, who will be at his prime while we are competing, and a top 20 pick for a bit of cap space. If we are paying him say 2.5 for the next 2 years while we have 110% cap to spend, then he becomes a well paid, but not insanely well paid player for the other 5 years of his contract.

But Aleer is not, in my opinion, a list need. Even at his ceiling, he's more a third tall type, and we have Barrat, Caminiti, Keeler and Tauru who can all play that same role, and all except maybe Barrat have not that much less exposed form than Aleer, who is also older than all mentioned. If Aleer was more of a defensive KPF in the Howard mould, then I'd get the appeal, but he's not great one on one, and relies very much on being the second or third guys up.

Personally, I'd much, much rather see Keeler given the time to play to role Aleer would play. He's got a great leap, great hands, and is a smart, natural footballer, unlike Aleer who is more of an athlete first. Keeler is also a lovely kick, which Aleer definitely isn't.

Wilkie, Caminiti/Howard, and Keeler/Tauru, in my opinion, is a great tall back mix, and I think that maybe we're splashing cash for cash splashing sake, rather than backing in the players we currently have. I can understand how that would be frustrating for a player like Windhager, who sees someone who has significantly less exposed form and I would say less potential to be an A grade player getting offered the same or more money than he is getting.

All in all, I'm pro-TDK, and anti-Aleer, and if pursuing the former costs us a good player that we currently have, I'll be very disappointed in the club.

Aleer still has scope to improve and is the perfect age so view him as a transition piece that may become an important cog. He has high intercepting abilities and is good enough in other departments to play his role, and combined with Tauru and Wilkie it becomes an elite intercepting backline that other's can feed into if they prove to be better. Doogs' body is on the decline and Cordy is finished so we absolutely need someone. It's a sensible move.

 

[gringo2011]

TDK wasn’t underperforming, his form from mid-last year up until round 13 this year was borderline AA. Very few players can play through contract queries like Nas has.

He had 4 good games last year and 2 to 3 this season. He's a project ruck at 25 years old and wildly inconsistent.His best looks flash but my Carlton family reckon Carlton often lose when he plays well and prefer the consistency of Pittonet.

If the ruck rule changes he might have a massive advantage but realistically his best footy is as a win his own clearance and dump kick forward type. He's like an inconsistent Marshall at this stage.

 

[Joffaboy]

Before we lose our minds… let’s just wait for someone with any level of credibility to factually state that Windy wants $850k

But everyone loses their shit when SEN says the Saints have lowballed him. Ok

 

[Yawkey way]

Aleer still has scope to improve and is the perfect age so view him as a transition piece that may become an important cog. He has high intercepting abilities and is good enough in other departments to play his role, and combined with Tauru and Wilkie it becomes an elite intercepting backline that other's can feed into if they prove to be better. Doogs' body is on the decline and Cordy is finished so we absolutely need someone. It's a sensible move.

Seriously have you watched him play?.

I’ve watched him at afl and vfl level at least 12 times and imo it’s a massive leap of faith.

At present he is a vfl player, last week he was so out of his depth it was crazy. He is very athletic and we know he has a massive leap but that’s all he is at present, a project.

Why are we chasing a project on a long contract and great money ?.

 

[gringo2011]

The player managers are out to smash us. We have 2 problems, a lot of cap space and what we are paying/offering other players.

Windy's manager would be looking around with reports of Aleer and the supposed $800 odd thousand and compare him to that (and he is a better player). He wouldnt care whether we need to pay the small club tax or not to attract players. They know how much $$ we have in the salary cap with 800k thrown at Aleer, 1.4 mill at TDK and Near 2 mill for Nas and wants the biggest piece of the pie for his player and his own back pocket. Plus im sure he would be aware of what Owens signed for and if im a guessing man it would have been higher than what they would have offered Windhager.

It would be irresponsible for the manager not to chase the cash. Most players only get a few seasons and you are always one serious knock from retirement. It's up to the club to sit them down and sell them the dream and get them to buy in.

 

[Captain Paddy]

But everyone loses their shit when SEN says the Saints have lowballed him. Ok

Yeah but Josh Gabelich is actually good

 

[Joffaboy]

Don't complain when we are continually shit then. If we keep leaking players as fast as we bring them in and just as they are set to pay off after developing them, we will stay in a cycle of losing.

You want to overpay B Graders again like we did with Acres, Dunstan, Billings etc?

You were the one that was so critical of that, but want to pay a tagger 850k a year?
Ok

 

[Joffaboy]

Yeah but Josh Gabelich is actually good

Yes he is usually on the mark, depends on who leaked it. Sounds like the manager who said he was lowballed.

You keen on paying a tagger 850k a year?

 

[gringo2011]

Seriously have you watched him play?.

I’ve watched him at afl and vfl level at least 12 times and imo it’s a massive leap of faith.

At present he is a vfl player, last week he was so out of his depth it was crazy. He is very athletic and we know he has a massive leap but that’s all he is at present, a project.

Why are we chasing a project on a long contract and great money ?.

Particularly when they have players at GWS even that look better in reserve. This guy regularly takes more marks than most VFL backs get touches.

https://vfl.aflmstats.com/player/Wade_Derksen

Or if you want to pay up big someone like Busslinger who couldn't be any better in the VFL and can't get a decent run.

VFL Stats - Jedd Busslinger

vfl.aflmstats.com

 

[stavro#4]

Doubt it but that's because we rub a stain on players. If he was a kid at GWS or another good system he'd be getting hyped.

If he isn’t worth a first round pick on the open market. How can anyone justify stumping up more than 750k for a player ?

 

[gringo2011]

You want to overpay B Graders again like we did with Acres, Dunstan, Billings etc?

You were the one that was so critical of that, but want to pay a tagger 850k a year?
Ok

I don't think he is staying B grade but 2 years on $800 means that if he doesn't progress we aren't over committed.


We are finding ways to waste the extra cap space that you keep saying we have to burn or it's irresponsible. Keeping your young core together is paramount. You'd be better to low ball guys like Dow, Jones and Clark who are filler.

 

[StCicatriz]

Looks like the battle narrative is being rolled out for windy. Gee wonder why.

Is there even one report he wants 850k?

That aside its a big ****in hard to say its too much given the offers to aleer and tdk.

We are picking and choosing when money is a concern to support the shit house list management going on.

 

[gringo2011]

If he isn’t worth a first round pick on the open market. How can anyone justify stumping up more than 750k for a player ?

You pay what the market demands or lose players. I don't know what he's asking for other than you making up a figure. I've heard Sydney are keen on him. If we don't come close to what others are willing to pay we will start losing players.

 

[StCicatriz]

You want to overpay B Graders again like we did with Acres, Dunstan, Billings etc?

You were the one that was so critical of that, but want to pay a tagger 850k a year?
Ok

Youre literally going to offer that money to a guy playing VFL

But youre not happy to pay it for a guy best 22 running through the midfield?

You can't make this up.

But all this is based on the amazing source: trust me bro

 

[StCicatriz]

But everyone loses their shit when SEN says the Saints have lowballed him. Ok

No offence

But I'll take an SEN report over a post on here with absolutely no substance to it.

It literally started with "there's a rumour"

Atleast the report on SEN was published and printed by an actual journalist.

 

[stavro#4]

You pay what the market demands or lose players. I don't know what he's asking for other than you making up a figure. I've heard Sydney are keen on him. If we don't come close to what others are willing to pay we will start losing players.

No you don’t.

You pay what you value the player at.

Over the long term, you’ll have more wins than losses with this method.

Again, if you’re telling me Windy isn’t worth a first round pick on the open market. Than why are we talking 750+k contracts for him?

 

[StCicatriz]

No you don’t.

You pay what you value the player at.

Over the long term, you’ll have more wins than losses with this method.

Again, if you’re telling me Windy isn’t worth a first round pick on the open market. Than why are we talking 750+k contracts for him?

Because 750k now is what 450k use to be.

Its not a big contract anymore.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Seriously have you watched him play?.

I’ve watched him at afl and vfl level at least 12 times and imo it’s a massive leap of faith.

At present he is a vfl player, last week he was so out of his depth it was crazy. He is very athletic and we know he has a massive leap but that’s all he is at present, a project.

Why are we chasing a project on a long contract and great money ?.

Maybe I've seen his better games but talant identification is one of the things the club has got right lately so I'm not worried about it. Recruiters and list managers see vastly more than we do and have a big picture view that we're not privy to. IMHO the only concerns ATM is retaining Nas and contingencies around King's ability to play a meaningful role in our future. We never get the truth anyway on contract values or internal player ratings so it's not worth the bother as numbers get overstated all the time. Aleer - 900k, Windy - 850k+, Nas 2M, TDK - 1.8M
It's all just silly.