List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[SaintsSeptember]

In hindsight it wasn't the right move. Billings over Bont wasn't right either. It was safer but obviously a terrible move.

King might end up being a masterstroke but right now he's probably one of four disappointments in the top 13 of a super draft. Tarryn Thomas, Chase Jones and Lukosius the only others that aren't guns.

Our bigfooty thread was stacked with love for Tarryn.

 

[jwikked]

Our bigfooty thread was stacked with love for Tarryn.

Perhaps we would have been better off picking him. The estrogen running through the Moorabbin taps might have changed his preferences enough so that he would be sending threatening text messages to men, instead of women, which the AFL is okay with.

 

[_Maximus_12]

In hindsight it wasn't the right move. Billings over Bont wasn't right either. It was safer but obviously a terrible move.

King might end up being a masterstroke but right now he's probably one of four disappointments in the top 13 of a super draft. Tarryn Thomas, Chase Jones and Lukosius the only others that aren't guns.

In hindsight everyone makes mistakes in every draft.

 

[stavro#4]

What, and you didn’t think this would be an issue 12 months ago when your argument with offloading Battle for a FRP was to fix the midfield issues once and for all?

So, basically, in the space of 12 months you’ve put forward conflicting and deviating arguments around:

• Initially, losing our key intercepting and running defender with Battle to gain draft capital and fix the midfield issues which weren’t addressed at all through Battle’s free agency and remain largely unresolved. You were aware then that we maintain a run and carry game style, so that’s a moot point.
• Currently, you’re now arguing midfield is no longer the issue and we should be coughing up draft capital so we can obtain Bergman (medium defender) and Leek (key defender) so we can fix intercept issues down back (arguably, still a secondary issue to the midfield).
• You’ve also come out and said losing Nas and a FRP for Bergman and Butters would be a good deal, basically we would be pulling Ports pants down (this one probably takes the cake).

At some point, you sort of start to lose credibility, noting this is just the last 12 months and I’d hate to troll back through what other pearlers you’ve promoted.

Friday night, we congested the game because we couldn’t compete in the middle, after being pantsed there in intervals, which either forced us down the line or either we failed to hit lateral targets under pressure to break the line. Not an intercepting issue.

And, to clarify, are you arguing that Toby Greene (small to medium forward) scored 5 goals because we couldn’t intercept? Surely not lol.

Here we go.

I didn’t say our midfield wasn’t an issue. However, Carlton have a star studded midfield. Their captain is a dual brownlow medalist. Yes they won clearances. BUT They got the 4 points because we couldn’t stop their key forwards and we couldn’t retain possession when we locked the ball down the line most of last Friday night.


If you think the way the game turned out was because of us, then you truly know nothing about football. That is how Carlton play. It’s effectively rugby. Gain territory. Lock it in. Go again and get it to their talls. They have played that way under Voss since he got there. They don’t want those games to become free flowing. We want and need intercept ball to get our better players in open space and to hit up Sharman and Owens. Our undersized key talls.

I’ve already said I wished we took mids last year. I very much admit I am in a what if place about those last 2 wins. Draper and Langford in our colours - yeah it’s very enticing. But you only need to watch a minute of Tauru footage or at training and you can see why he was spoken about as an option at pick 2. I’m comfortable with the selection even if I wanted something different and based on the clubs comments at the time they wanted mids and likely a different outcome aswell.

Re Battle and intercepting. Battle is a good 1 on 1 defender. He is a good channel interceptor. He isn’t an aerial intercept defender like a McGovern or Moore etc. I’ve been very clear about our needs here. Go and look at sides who have won flags. All have atleast 1 player capable of intercepting a highball.

Greene kicked 2 or 3 from memory that day from crumbing goals off packs because we couldn’t kill the highball. It was definitely his 4th and 5th goals. Can’t remember if his 1st or 2nd occurred because we didn’t kill a contest with Hogan and they again won the ball back. But my point was purely focused on Key tall forwards and our ability to defend and turn that into attacks directly on them.

It’s a massive issue for us. We significantly lack size. Part of that is because of injury and suspension. But even Ross has alluded to this being an issue and our need to get bigger.

“You’ve also come out and said losing Nas and a FRP for Bergman and Butters would be a good deal, basically we would be pulling Ports pants down (this one probably takes the cake).”

Nas is a gun. But Butters is arguably a top 5 midfielder in this league.

If you put a poll up and asked afl supporters in general who wins a trade when it’s likely Wanganeen-Milera and roughly pick 10 of the 2025 draft for Bergman & Butters. They would tell you the saints win that trade.

Also, review my posts with you. I didn’t say anything about trading for Bergman.

Thats being completely unbiased. Which you seemingly are struggling with on this point.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Going to upset some battle lovers here but this board overrates him. He’s a high level role player, nothing more. You can pull out his disposal & intercept stats that are inflated by his performance against bottom sides but he has never dominated a game, he has only contributed.
Taurus ceiling is twice that of Josh’s. We were never winning a premiership this year. Move on.

 

[HeavenlySources]

Going to upset some battle lovers here but this board overrates him. He’s a high level role player, nothing more. You can pull out his disposal & intercept stats that are inflated by his performance against bottom sides but he has never dominated a game, he has only contributed.
Taurus ceiling is twice that of Josh’s. We were never winning a premiership this year. Move on.

Yep, calling it now, Tauru will win more AA in his career than Battle IF he ever wins one.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Yep, calling it now, Tauru will win more AA in his career than Battle IF he ever wins one.

Leek Aleer will.

 

[AirWinmar]

Here we go.

I didn’t say our midfield wasn’t an issue. However, Carlton have a star studded midfield. Their captain is a dual brownlow medalist. Yes they won clearances. BUT They got the 4 points because we couldn’t stop their key forwards and we couldn’t retain possession when we locked the ball down the line most of last Friday night.


If you think the way the game turned out was because of us, then you truly know nothing about football. That is how Carlton play. It’s effectively rugby. Gain territory. Lock it in. Go again and get it to their talls. They have played that way under Voss since he got there. They don’t want those games to become free flowing. We want and need intercept ball to get our better players in open space and to hit up Sharman and Owens. Our undersized key talls.

I’ve already said I wished we took mids last year. I very much admit I am in a what if place about those last 2 wins. Draper and Langford in our colours - yeah it’s very enticing. But you only need to watch a minute of Tauru footage or at training and you can see why he was spoken about as an option at pick 2. I’m comfortable with the selection even if I wanted something different and based on the clubs comments at the time they wanted mids and likely a different outcome aswell.

Re Battle and intercepting. Battle is a good 1 on 1 defender. He is a good channel interceptor. He isn’t an aerial intercept defender like a McGovern or Moore etc. I’ve been very clear about our needs here. Go and look at sides who have won flags. All have atleast 1 player capable of intercepting a highball.

Greene kicked 2 or 3 from memory that day from crumbing goals off packs because we couldn’t kill the highball. It was definitely his 4th and 5th goals. Can’t remember if his 1st or 2nd occurred because we didn’t kill a contest with Hogan and they again won the ball back. But my point was purely focused on Key tall forwards and our ability to defend and turn that into attacks directly on them.

It’s a massive issue for us. We significantly lack size. Part of that is because of injury and suspension. But even Ross has alluded to this being an issue and our need to get bigger.

“You’ve also come out and said losing Nas and a FRP for Bergman and Butters would be a good deal, basically we would be pulling Ports pants down (this one probably takes the cake).”

Nas is a gun. But Butters is arguably a top 5 midfielder in this league.

If you put a poll up and asked afl supporters in general who wins a trade when it’s likely Wanganeen-Milera and roughly pick 10 of the 2025 draft for Bergman & Butters. They would tell you the saints win that trade.

Also, review my posts with you. I didn’t say anything about trading for Bergman.

Thats being completely unbiased. Which you seemingly are struggling with on this point.

Wilkie would be a great interceptor but we need him to play kpd

 

[L_W_P]

Yep, calling it now, Tauru will win more AA in his career than Battle IF he ever wins one.

Pavlich 2.0

Will play in all 3 zones and succeed in all of them.

Honestly think he will end up essentially playing CHF in the long run. Three man swing with him, Owens and Pou going from on ball to half forward to deep forward to keep the opposition guessing.

 

[Ads734]

Pavlich 2.0

Will play in all 3 zones and succeed in all of them.

Honestly think he will end up essentially playing CHF in the long run. Three man swing with him, Owens and Pou going from on ball to half forward to deep forward to keep the opposition guessing.

I see him as curnow up forward. His marking is rediculous and his kicking is very pretty

 

[Mav3rick]

What do people think of the midfield mix in the senior team moving forward? Garcia and Boxshall are promising but still really raw imo and both might be better served developing the offensive side of their game at Sandy for a while. I've always thought our midfield appears to function better with Hunter Clark

11

Hunter Clark

Age

26

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.9

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

in there but not sure if that still applies now we've got Macrae.

I actually think Steele could be an effective forward as he gets on, obviously elite tackling and pressure plus a lovely kick generally with some time and space. Wouldn't mind him rotating 50/50 with Phillipou. Windy ? no idea where his best position is.

 

[Mav3rick]

Aleer looks ok in so much as he shows occasional flashes of talent but 12 games turning 24 and not getting a look in at GWS sounds more like a junk pick than a second rounder. We have our own youngsters that will fill the third tall and half back roles, we need a genuine key back.

Context is key, he's been playing behind elite key position depth. Taylor, Buckley, Himmelberg is as good as it gets

 

[_Maximus_12]

Context is key, he's been playing behind elite key position depth. Taylor, Buckley, Himmelberg is as good as it gets

Every time he has stepped up to play AFL he has looked at home. He will be an instant upgrade to our backline

 

[Joffaboy]

Why all the Battle dissing? Here's a very good backman and a required player for us.
He made our backline and team better.
To say Tauru is better is fine, but based on what? He has potential and that's it.

With Battle we were chances for the 8. Without, we are struggling.

 

[gringo2011]

Our bigfooty thread was stacked with love for Tarryn.

He should have bee a absolute star. So should JUH. Sometimes players just don't have the discipline and off field stuff in order.

 

[stavro#4]

Why all the Battle dissing? Here's a very good backman and a required player for us.
He made our backline and team better.
To say Tauru is better is fine, but based on what? He has potential and that's it.

With Battle we were chances for the 8. Without, we are struggling.

Aren’t we in the same position and have had a significantly harder draw up until now than most sides this year?

 

[littlecreatures]

Here we go.

I didn’t say our midfield wasn’t an issue. However, Carlton have a star studded midfield. Their captain is a dual brownlow medalist. Yes they won clearances. BUT They got the 4 points because we couldn’t stop their key forwards and we couldn’t retain possession when we locked the ball down the line most of last Friday night.


If you think the way the game turned out was because of us, then you truly know nothing about football. That is how Carlton play. It’s effectively rugby. Gain territory. Lock it in. Go again and get it to their talls. They have played that way under Voss since he got there. They don’t want those games to become free flowing. We want and need intercept ball to get our better players in open space and to hit up Sharman and Owens. Our undersized key talls.

I’ve already said I wished we took mids last year. I very much admit I am in a what if place about those last 2 wins. Draper and Langford in our colours - yeah it’s very enticing. But you only need to watch a minute of Tauru footage or at training and you can see why he was spoken about as an option at pick 2. I’m comfortable with the selection even if I wanted something different and based on the clubs comments at the time they wanted mids and likely a different outcome aswell.

Re Battle and intercepting. Battle is a good 1 on 1 defender. He is a good channel interceptor. He isn’t an aerial intercept defender like a McGovern or Moore etc. I’ve been very clear about our needs here. Go and look at sides who have won flags. All have atleast 1 player capable of intercepting a highball.

Greene kicked 2 or 3 from memory that day from crumbing goals off packs because we couldn’t kill the highball. It was definitely his 4th and 5th goals. Can’t remember if his 1st or 2nd occurred because we didn’t kill a contest with Hogan and they again won the ball back. But my point was purely focused on Key tall forwards and our ability to defend and turn that into attacks directly on them.

It’s a massive issue for us. We significantly lack size. Part of that is because of injury and suspension. But even Ross has alluded to this being an issue and our need to get bigger.

“You’ve also come out and said losing Nas and a FRP for Bergman and Butters would be a good deal, basically we would be pulling Ports pants down (this one probably takes the cake).”

Nas is a gun. But Butters is arguably a top 5 midfielder in this league.

If you put a poll up and asked afl supporters in general who wins a trade when it’s likely Wanganeen-Milera and roughly pick 10 of the 2025 draft for Bergman & Butters. They would tell you the saints win that trade.

Also, review my posts with you. I didn’t say anything about trading for Bergman.

Thats being completely unbiased. Which you seemingly are struggling with on this point.

We restricted Carlton to a score of 77. Carlton and Curnow had three contested marks between them. Not a bad effort for a side with two triple As and Coleman medalists in that line.

Our issue was we had zero scoreboard pressure when he had ascendency against Carlton - that’s got zero to do with defending their talls. We made basic errors transitioning across lines, once again, teams know they can restrict movement in the coal face or close down space defensively and we can’t keep up. This isn’t an issue around defending an aerial threat.

Similarly, other sides (e.g., Dogs, Adelaide and GWS) have been able to amp up the pressure, restrict our movement, cut off any clearance ball, and we don’t have the capability or execution to keep up. All these games are a perfect example, we got absolutely pantsed in the spread. Once again, not an aerial threat issue.

We’ve got limited capability and capacity to get clean ball out, transition, and move from inside to outside. We just don’t have the engine room nor the capability across the board to keep it moving. Similar to your argument, all premiership sides have elite talent who can do this and move it inside to outside with damage - as other posters have said, midfield depth not the issue, it’s elite talent who can do this and a weight of numbers with high end capability.

Until we can build more elite talent with players that can transition it from inside to out, and move the ball at tempo and under pressure from line to line we’re just papering over the cracks with finding “aerial threats” to defend - it’s pointless and doesn’t align our list strategy to date nor the argument you put up 12 months ago.

I dare say if there’s a stat broken down around marks on lead, when the ball isn’t up for grabs to defend an “aerial threat” we would’ve ran an absolute deficit against GWS, Dogs and Adelaide. You can’t defend an aerial threat when you’re getting beat on the spread and defending open space which is indicative of getting it done in the coal face, moving it out effectively, and using your numbers in transition.

Look, you do you and piece together your argument around Nas, Bergman and Butters. It’d be an absolute nightmare despite what they’re worth on the open market. And re Bergman, please, you’ve been hard on Bergman for sometime.

Bit rich talking about objectivity when you flip flop and cobble together an argument dependent on whatever higher risk play is on the go at any given time. It lacks any credibility.

Last year it’s the Battle fiasco, now it’s coughing up draft capital for players which haven’t aligned to the list strategy to date, which is basically our criticism that we can’t stick meaningfully to any sort of plan or strategy for any meaningful duration.

If you were serious about the Battle argument a year ago, you wouldn’t be deviating to throwing draft capital at a defensive “aerial threat”.

At this rate, we’ll have list holes everywhere if we’re just gambling with draft capital and talent across lines. I think the only thing that really lends itself to your argument right now is just how compromised the draft is, but that said Aleer and Bergman aren’t the answer and aren’t going to solve the elite talent issue we have.

 

[bergholt]

Philipou hasn’t influenced games as a midfielder or forward? His last 5 games:

• Rd 9 (Carlton - forward): 2.1 goals and 5 score involvements.
• Rd 24 (Carlton - forward): 20 disposals, 2 clearances, 9 tackles, 5 score involvements and 30 pressure acts.
• Rd 21 (Brisbane - midfielder): 24 disposals at 79.2% efficiency, 327 metres gained, 1 goal, 5 score involvements, 19 pressure acts, 5 clearances, 14.4 player rating points.
• Rd 18 (Adelaide - midfielder): 20 disposals, 314 metres gained, 1.1 goal, 9 tackles, 5 clearances, 4 score involvements, 12.9 player ratings points.
• Rd 17 (Sydney - midfielder): 26 disposals, 1.1 goal, 10 score involvements, 714 metres gained, 5 clearances, 17.2 player ratings points and 10 coaches votes.

Yeah those last four games last year, as a midfielder, he averaged:

22.5 possessions
8.8 contested
4.3 clearances
6.5 tackles
4.8 inside 50s
1.0 goals

Not blockbuster numbers but very solid for an AFL quality mid.

 

[akaifu]

I still would take King at the moment. King is the type of player if he gets healthy and fit could be a key reason you win a flag. Rozee is very good, but I don't think he is a game changer like King.

I agree. I still prefer King over Rozee especially if we can get King's body right for when we are actually in contention

Rozee has played in 9 finals matches

Only ever gone above 20 disposals in 1 of them and averages less than a goal per game in those finals

 

[akaifu]

He was a huge Saints fan lol

This has been mentioned a lot in the media

Same Simon Leathlean that said no to Noah Anderson when he wanted to came home after his 1st year, apparently we wanted to keep the picks for Ben King , this I know as fact lol

Old mate was NVG

That's diabolical if true

So he's the reason why we have no good mids in their prime

 

[gringo2011]

In hindsight everyone makes mistakes in every draft.

100% but for a side to get nearly zero return of high end players from the national draft in about 20 drafts is absolutely bizarre. It's literally weighted to help the idiots that can't manage their own affairs.

 

[jwikked]

100% but for a side to get nearly zero return of high end players from the national draft in about 20 drafts is absolutely bizarre. It's literally weighted to help the idiots that can't manage their own affairs.

We've had significantly better luck in mature aged recruits than we did in the draft.

 

[Joffaboy]

That's diabolical if true

So he's the reason why we have no good mids in their prime

Him and every other CEO and list manager we have had since 2011.

 

[akaifu]

Him and every other CEO and list manager we have had since 2011.

Even tho they've also made blunders, you can't really blame the list manager for decisions where CEO has overruled them

 

[gringo2011]

We've had significantly better luck in mature aged recruits than we did in the draft.

And rookie list. That said if you are stacked with good players those guys probably don't get much of a go and a reminder to keep an eye on alternative pathways.