Expansion A 2nd NRL team in Melbourne...

[Rob]

They are working towards profitability and the new stadium is one of the last pieces in the jigsaw puzzle so that external factors are not hindering growth. In other words, with a world class stadium to attract fans, there will be no justifiable external excuses for poor crowds other than internal factors such as form and ladder position.

However, profitability just doesnt rely solely on crowds. The Storm require FTA exposure to become a long-term profitable enterprise and that looks about as likely in the near-term as Michael Fitzpatrick and Michael Searle enjoying an early morning short black at a trendy Coffee Bar in Broadbeach.

Hang on ld, didn't you say:

News Ltd are selling out soon because the Storm now have long-term financial viability, particularly now that their new Football Stadium is well on the way.

They're currently making losses of $6 million a year, and no real prospects of improving this given that on-field, they can't do any better.

If they can't draw higher crowds at the newer, and no doubt more expensive new stadium, then they're even more f**ked financially. They would need to draw better crowds just to justify the additional stadium cost. What if they don't draw bigger crowds?
And regular FTA coverage is just a dream you've got. AFAIK, there are no plans for that in place.

What on earth prompted you to say that they have long term financial viability? A bunch of maybes and possiblys?

 

[RUNVS]

They're currently making losses of $6 million a year, and no real prospects of improving this given that on-field, they can't do any better.

If thats true im surprised the Storm havent gone under already as it is alot of money.

 

[Pj.Rj.Hj]

What I can't understnad in all these post is how eager some of you all seem be at pointing out how poorly your respective town and state support the other code. Especially Melbourne, Perth and Hunter lost their teams to watch the Storm pick at the carcases for Melbourne not to support them. West Sydney guys, there's 1.7 million people west of Homebush, there has to be 200 000 people in the area that are willing to support their team?

I'm a proud West Australian when I see a West Aussie being elevated to the elite level in other football codes. It's no easy feat to develope the skills in a less competitive environment. I have lived all my life in the East Fremantle football zone/catchment, historically one of the most potent breading grounds of Australian Footballers, it is the definition of Heartland. There are a number of successful Rugby league and union clubs in the area, one club Palmyra has the grandest clubhouse of any sporting club in the state. We love our Eagles and Dockers and have room the enjoy and support the Force, many of us went to Reds games. Corporate and finanical support is one thing, markets can be saturated (why I fear the possible failure of a League return to Perth) but their is little reason why one can't support League and Australian Football at the same time. Funny, every person I know who has a Force membership also has a membership with the Eagles or Dockers.

 

[erpel9999]

mods please redcard Pj,Rj,Hj
we can't have sensible posts adding to the discussion

by the way jackmac, is the 7 for your age or just your Year at school?

 

[.Shotties.]

Perth and Adelaide got screwed by Murdoch, I don't know why AFL fans haven't given it to you, you embarrass them, and being an Aussie, you embarrass me with your stupidity.

While I would like to say he doesn't represent me, I should also remind you of the glass houses saying.

 

[littleduck]

Hang on ld, didn't you say:



They're currently making losses of $6 million a year, and no real prospects of improving this given that on-field, they can't do any better.

If they can't draw higher crowds at the newer, and no doubt more expensive new stadium, then they're even more f**ked financially. They would need to draw better crowds just to justify the additional stadium cost. What if they don't draw bigger crowds?
And regular FTA coverage is just a dream you've got. AFAIK, there are no plans for that in place.

What on earth prompted you to say that they have long term financial viability? A bunch of maybes and possiblys?

Thanks for picking up on that.... what I meant was they are closer to being financially viabile without News Ltd direct involvement than you think. 2 issues have hamstrung the Storm, lack of suitable venue and lack of FTA exposure. The new Melbourne Football Stadium means 1 of 2 issues are resolved. FTA coverage is the last major issue to resolve.

The Storm are a red hot team that is still on the up and should remain top 4 competitive for the foreseeable future, particularly in the early seasons of the new venue. Very difficult to attract people to Oly Park, and even harder to attract repeat patronage to a s/hole. When Victorians experience RL football at a rectangular shaped purpose built for RL football stadium, repeat patronage is far more likely.

 

[zero]

What I can't understnad in all these post is how eager some of you all seem be at pointing out how poorly your respective town and state support the other code. Especially Melbourne, Perth and Hunter lost their teams to watch the Storm pick at the carcases for Melbourne not to support them. West Sydney guys, there's 1.7 million people west of Homebush, there has to be 200 000 people in the area that are willing to support their team?

I'm a proud West Australian when I see a West Aussie being elevated to the elite level in other football codes. It's no easy feat to develope the skills in a less competitive environment. I have lived all my life in the East Fremantle football zone/catchment, historically one of the most potent breading grounds of Australian Footballers, it is the definition of Heartland. There are a number of successful Rugby league and union clubs in the area, one club Palmyra has the grandest clubhouse of any sporting club in the state. We love our Eagles and Dockers and have room the enjoy and support the Force, many of us went to Reds games. Corporate and finanical support is one thing, markets can be saturated (why I fear the possible failure of a League return to Perth) but their is little reason why one can't support League and Australian Football at the same time. Funny, every person I know who has a Force membership also has a membership with the Eagles or Dockers.

eg-****ing-zactly. multicode support in perth is already widespread, with the force and glory getting alot of crossover support. now that im back in oz ill be getting along to a force game or two this year, and watching a few games on fox

and in my travels pretty much everyone iv met from SEQ follows the broncos AND the lions.

thats the goal in western sydney and the gold coast too

 

[Shinboner Schem]

I dont believe in a 2nd Melbourne team. I was applying an argument that local rivalries and derbies grow support.. and if it does, it would surely apply to RL in Melbourne. But I dont support a 2nd Melbourne team now, or ever.

A rivalry can be built a lot easier by AFL in Sydney than RL/soccer in Melbourne...

Firstly, Sydney's city and the SCG are very easterly located (compared to the geographical centre of greater Sydney) and the Swans are generally supported by people from the Eastern Suburbs.
So it is easy to generate a East V West rivalry.

Melbourne on the other hand is very centrally located, so there really isn't an option for a rivalry other than Geelong.

Secondly, there will be a stadium in Blacktown to play home games at, and there is the centrally located ANZ stadium for big clashes.
There is no ideal place for a second stadium in Melbourne that will tie-in with the club's identity (again, other than Geelong)

So really, its not comparing apples with apples.

...
The Storm are a red hot team that is still on the up and should remain top 4 competitive for the foreseeable future, particularly in the early seasons of the new venue. Very difficult to attract people to Oly Park, and even harder to attract repeat patronage to a s/hole. When Victorians experience RL football at a rectangular shaped purpose built for RL football stadium, repeat patronage is far more likely.

Melbourne Victory didn't have any problems. They had to turn people away

 

[littleduck]

A rivalry can be built a lot easier by AFL in Sydney than RL/soccer in Melbourne...

Firstly, Sydney's city and the SCG are very easterly located (compared to the geographical centre of greater Sydney) and the Swans are generally supported by people from the Eastern Suburbs.
So it is easy to generate a East V West rivalry.

Melbourne on the other hand is very centrally located, so there really isn't an option for a rivalry other than Geelong.

Secondly, there will be a stadium in Blacktown to play home games at, and there is the centrally located ANZ stadium for big clashes.
There is no ideal place for a second stadium in Melbourne that will tie-in with the club's identity (again, other than Geelong)

So really, its not comparing apples with apples.

Fair point.

I guess when the FFA get around to considering a 2nd A-League team from Melbourne, they will be the first code to ponder this problem.

Melbourne Victory didn't have any problems. They had to turn people away

Melbourne Storm had to shut the gates and turn people away an hour or more before kick-off in their first ever home game against North Sydney Bears as well.

Melbourne Victory were performing brilliantly on the field topping the table and went on to win the Grand Final, and so they required increased capacity. Hence the move to Tesltra Dome.

But the Victory would also have faced the same issue in the end, that day in day out season after season, it's difficult to attract repeat patronage to a $hithole venue in this age where the sporting public and theatregoers who attend big games demand a much higher level of comfort.

 

[Shinboner Schem]

...
But the Victory would also have faced the same issue in the end, that day in day out season after season, it's difficult to attract repeat patronage to a $hithole venue in this age where the sporting public and theatregoers who attend big games demand a much higher level of comfort.

Fair point

 

[Rob]

But the Victory would also have faced the same issue in the end, that day in day out season after season, it's difficult to attract repeat patronage to a $hithole venue in this age where the sporting public and theatregoers who attend big games demand a much higher level of comfort.

Explain Subiaco Oval then.

 

[littleduck]

Explain Subiaco Oval then.

I don't know anything about it, other than it looks pretty impressive on television.

 

[Rob]

I don't know anything about it, other than it looks pretty impressive on television.

It's a shithole. Yet sells out most weeks.

If people want to go to a game, shit stadium or not, they'll go.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think News Ltd can only afford to prop up one Melbourne based team. From an article in the SMH last July looking at the 2006 financials pf NRL clubs.

Get rich or die trying

Melbourne
End of October 2006

Total revenue: $14,098,000

Sponsorship: N/A

Gate takings: $549,000

News Limited grant: $13.11 million

Loss: $781,798

Heavily subsidised by News Limited to the tune of more than $13 million a year. In the club's financial reports there is no allocation for sponsorship, although "other income" is listed as $28,893. The Herald Sun newspaper provided sponsorship of $420,000 last year, while a News Limited company paid the newspaper $443,573 for advertising expenses. The club also received a Victorian Government grant of nearly $600,000. Chief executive Brian Waldron said crowds at Olympic Park had doubled during the past year, now up to 12,000, and the club was anticipating far greater corporate support when a new $250 million stadium, complete with 16 luxury hospitality boxes, was completed in 2010. Television exposure is critical to the Storm's acceptance in AFL heartland, but recent research has shown the Storms' sponsors are the fourth-most recognised behind Essendon, the Broncos and the Fremantle Dockers.

In Sydney you have the Swans who are financially stable making a small profit in 2005 $150k and $1.5mil in both 2006 and 2007 with the only assistance from the AFL being a Annual Special Distribution amount covering the Cost of Living Allowance since 2004 or 2005.

A second AFL team in Sydney will need to be subsidised $6mil to $10mil a year for the first 5 years by the AFL or if some company/individual is dumb enough to buy a private licence. The second 5 year period will need a similiar subsidy.

So 2 teams in Melbourne will need about $25mil per year from News Ltd.

 

[littleduck]

I think News Ltd can only afford to prop up one Melbourne based team. From an article in the SMH last July looking at the 2006 financials pf NRL clubs.

Get rich or die trying



In Sydney you have the Swans who are financially stable making a small profit in 2005 $156k and $1.5mil in both 2006 and 2007 with the only assistance from the AFL being a Annual Special Distribution amount covering the Cost of Living Allowance since 2004 or 2005.

A second AFL team in Sydney will need to be subsidised $6mil to $10mil a year for the first 5 years by the AFL or if some company/individual is dumb enough to buy a private licence. The second 5 year period will need a similiar subsidy.

So 2 teams in Melbourne will need about $25mil per year from News Ltd.

Its a good post you submit, but consider that in RL the Football Club and the Leagues Club are separate but related entities, whereas in AFL, clubs own and operate their own Social Clubs and the Football Club is not a separate entity.

So if RL clubs could post their revenue and expenditure and profit combining the Football Club and Leagues Club, then the raw numbers for AFL clubs and NRL clubs would look remarkably similar.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Its a good post you submit, but consider that in RL the Football Club and the Leagues Club are separate but related entities, whereas in AFL, clubs own and operate their own Social Clubs and the Football Club is not a separate entity.

So if RL clubs could post their revenue and expenditure and profit combining the Football Club and Leagues Club, then the raw numbers for AFL clubs and NRL clubs would look remarkably similar.

I have made this point in several other threads comparing the two sports ie that you have to include the licensed clubs in calculations even though they are seperate legal entities, but usually have common board of directors, eg Panthers Leagues clubs has $40mil cash in the bank and granted Penrith $2.5mil in 2006.

But you raised a 2nd Melbourne team and as far as I'm aware the Storm have no licensed club with big revenue stream like the NSW based NRL teams and the Broncos (I'm not sure about other Qld and NZ teams).

 

[littleduck]

I have made this point in several other threads comparing the two sports ie that you have to include the licensed clubs in calculations even though they are seperate legal entities, but usually have common board of directors, eg Panthers Leagues clubs has $40mil cash in the bank and granted Penrith $2.5mil in 2006.

But you raised a 2nd Melbourne team and as far as I'm aware the Storm have no licensed club with big revenue stream like the NSW based NRL teams and the Broncos (I'm not sure about other Qld and NZ teams).

I dont believe in a 2nd NRL team in Melbourne. I started the thread to apply the same argument people are using to justify a 2nd Sydney AFL team in the context of a 2nd NRL team in Melbourne.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

There is one big difference, one of geography. As well as Sydney being 1 million people larger.

The Storm play near the centre of Melbourne, with reasonabler access from almost anywhere in the city. The same is not true of the Swans. Sydney's "city centre"; with the SCG sort of nearby, is not at all central and the SCG is hardly the most accessible venue on the planet (only Bellerive and maybe Football Park would be worse in Australia) : even from the CBD.
Add to that the woeful situation regarding Sydney's transport and road systems, although Melbourne is rapidly approaching Sydney in those terrors, and there isn't as much as a divide by travel time in Melbourne as is apparent is Sydney. (Plus the NRL has an even lower following per capita in Melbourne than the AFL does in Sydney, Sydney is larger population wise, western Sydney the second largest economy behind only eastern Sydney, the eventual - probably not in the initial years - boost to TV interest capturing more of the number one market and the fact the Swans are more advanced in becoming viable on their own than the Storm.)
But the biggest difference is that Sydney is, to some extent, naturally divided east-west in a way that Melbourne isn't. Melbourne has an east-west divide economically, but not one driven so much by geography and transport.

 

[RUNVS]

There is one big difference, one of geography. As well as Sydney being 1 million people larger.

The Storm play near the centre of Melbourne, with reasonabler access from almost anywhere in the city. The same is not true of the Swans. Sydney's "city centre"; with the SCG sort of nearby, is not at all central and the SCG is hardly the most accessible venue on the planet (only Bellerive and maybe Football Park would be worse in Australia) : even from the CBD.
Add to that the woeful situation regarding Sydney's transport and road systems, although Melbourne is rapidly approaching Sydney in those terrors, and there isn't as much as a divide by travel time in Melbourne as is apparent is Sydney. (Plus the NRL has an even lower following per capita in Melbourne than the AFL does in Sydney, Sydney is larger population wise, western Sydney the second largest economy behind only eastern Sydney, the eventual - probably not in the initial years - boost to TV interest capturing more of the number one market and the fact the Swans are more advanced in becoming viable on their own than the Storm.)
But the biggest difference is that Sydney is, to some extent, naturally divided east-west in a way that Melbourne isn't. Melbourne has an east-west divide economically, but not one driven so much by geography and transport.

The SCG is in a shithole of a location. It doesnt matter how many times i go i always get lost. Its clear nobody thought out Sydney's roads before they were built as they make little to no sense to me.

 

[Dogs Of War]

The SCG is in a shithole of a location. It doesnt matter how many times i go i always get lost. Its clear nobody thought out Sydney's roads before they were built as they make little to no sense to me.

How can you get lost? It's a 15min walk from Central down one street. There are plenty of buses from Eddy avenue taking you to the ground.

 

[kickingoals]

afl are kidding themselves if they truley beieve a club will firstly last more than 10 years and secondly be half successfull in either sydney or the gold coast without massive dollars from the afl and i mean double what they are saying .

look at west sydney first , i have many friends who live in the western sydney suburbs and they are all strong supporters of differant rugby league sides but dont buy memberships or attend games most struggle too pay the bills out the west suberbs after the property crashed out that way 5 years or so ago .
as i make a living off betting on sports i also watch every game live or recorded and some of the games out penrith way are lucky too get 5000 fans through the gate .

now the gold coast , the titans rugby franchise is born and breed gold coast , it is a rugby town , they have a brand new stadium (which is as good as the dome too watch sport from) but still they are struggling too get 15000 members and after the initial fanfare will probably get 10000 average too a game .
carrara staduim is built in the lowest lying land on the coast and every night is covered in dew , every game i attended last year was some of the ugliest footy i have ever seen , carlton dont help i suppose !!! there was under 2000 there last friday too see the cats & lions , it was a real prac match but still alot of geelong people live here and it was pumped in the media and they are the best in the land .

now unlike melbourne and adelaide there is a hell of alot more too do up here than attend footy matches , so unless they build a staduim that is worthy and schedule games on sat /sun arvo,s they will not succeed here either .

 

[Aucklander]

Subiaco is like Suncorp compared to Olympic Park.

 

[zero]

now the gold coast , the titans rugby franchise is born and breed gold coast , it is a rugby town , they have a brand new stadium (which is as good as the dome too watch sport from) but still they are struggling too get 15000 members and after the initial fanfare will probably get 10000 average too a game .
carrara staduim is built in the lowest lying land on the coast and every night is covered in dew , every game i attended last year was some of the ugliest footy i have ever seen , carlton dont help i suppose !!! there was under 2000 there last friday too see the cats & lions , it was a real prac match but still alot of geelong people live here and it was pumped in the media and they are the best in the land .

now unlike melbourne and adelaide there is a hell of alot more too do up here than attend footy matches , so unless they build a staduim that is worthy and schedule games on sat /sun arvo,s they will not succeed here either .

interesting points.

i think we take for granted big crowds, and just assume that because the swans, the lions and every other club gets good crowds then the new ones will too. but why? if the titans can only get 15k to a game then surely a new GC club will be getting less than that, even if they had a good stadium, which they probably wont.

the saving grace is your first point, the afl just wont let these clubs die and will prop them up for 20 years if needed.

 

[dr strange]

Could this eventually be the place for melbourne's 2nd rectangular stadium
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/71542,casey-plans-aleague-coup.aspx
Logic would say that all the afl teams with inner city names means that new developing areas somewhere arent represented by a team much the same as no nrl team for cc and possibly nw sydney in the future.Problem how to get teams out of ageing suburbs into new developing areas

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Could this eventually be the place for melbourne's 2nd rectangular stadium
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/71542,casey-plans-aleague-coup.aspx
Logic would say that all the afl teams with inner city names means that new developing areas somewhere arent represented by a team much the same as no nrl team for cc and possibly nw sydney in the future.Problem how to get teams out of ageing suburbs into new developing areas

15-20 min from St Kilda's new base in Frankston and St Kilda's VFL affiliate is the current Major Tenant at Casey Fields. Its pretty much St Kilda and Hawthorn heartland.

The council is still a little miffed that St Kilda chose Frankston instead of Cranbourne, A-League is the easiest type of major team to get.

But good on them.