Opinion A sobering reminder

[lionbear]

In our three terrible losses, we have won the scoring shot count.

So yes we are losing, but we are still getting the ball down there.

 

[ChookNorris]

In our three terrible losses, we have won the scoring shot count.

So yes we are losing, but we are still getting the ball down there.

And I think we've only lost 4 out of thr 12 quarters in those games.

 

[Pollywaffle]

OK. I'm sober now.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

And here are some facts to go with it - they had won the previous two flags. They knew within that they had what it takes. Even with that because of those losses they had to go to Perth twice in the finals and play the 4 full weeks. That doesn't happen much and I think we'd really be best to stop losing to shite teams and avoid it.

Sigh. Yawn.

Talk about missed point.

 

[Vdubs]

We had our chances in the 4Q to snatch a victory, but fact is we were outclassed on the night. We now have 8 games to get things right:

R16 v Swans at Simonds WIN
R17 v Dockers at Subiaco 50:50
R18 v Crows at Simonds WIN
R19 v Bulldogs at Simonds WIN
R20 v Bombers at Etihad WIN
R21 v Tigers at MCG WIN
R22 v Lions at Gabba WIN
R23 v Demons at Simonds WIN

On my reckoning we finish with 17 or 18 wins

Your reckoning does NOT allow for our form against sides outside top 8, hence, conservatively, 4 more losses..

Sigh. Yawn.

Talk about missed point.

The sad reality is, and CS said it perfectly on Mon pm- we need to be near our best to win close games, Hawthorn doesn't. BIG major difference. As he said, we are NOT at their level.
Our best is great, but we are not going to get that when we want it or expect it. Simple. Too unreliable and inconsistent and unproven under all sorts of pressure to be in the same equation as Hawks at this stage. No crime, still time.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Your reckoning does NOT allow for our form against sides outside top 8, hence, conservatively, 4 more losses..

lol. 4 more losses. Spare me. We have the Dons and Lions who are as close to guaranteed wins. Richmond... Our bitches and Melbourne... Well lightning won't strike twice. We have no more than 3 losses left. and even then that's overs.

Your reckoning does NOT allow for our form against sides outside top 8, hence, conservatively, 4 more losses..

The sad reality is, and CS said it perfectly on Mon pm- we need to be near our best to win close games, Hawthorn doesn't. BIG major difference. As he said, we are NOT at their level.
Our best is great, but we are not going to get that when we want it or expect it. Simple. Too unreliable and inconsistent and unproven under all sorts of pressure to be in the same equation as Hawks at this stage. No crime, still time.

sigh. The point was to diffuse the usual suspects and their tiresome, skip worthy melts. We're 6-1 against those that actually matter. Sounds good to me amongst the usual dribble.

 

[Vdubs]

lol. 4 more losses. Spare me. We have the Dons and Lions who are as close to guaranteed wins. Richmond... Our bitches and Melbourne... Well lightning won't strike twice. We have no more than 3 losses left. and even then that's overs.

sigh. The point was to diffuse the usual suspects and their tiresome, skip worthy melts. We're 6-1 against those that actually matter. Sounds good to me amongst the usual dribble.

Until we guarantee top 4, they all matter.
Anyway, what we do offer this year is hope and interest.
Last year our % reflected our season.

 

[vinum coupe]

I have a sobering reminder.

Had new carpet laid a few months ago and my son just put a a stack of super glue into it. F***#££|+£~£'f

Right in the effing centre of the walkway into the house.

Double f^*^+|?~£~*€~+

 

[Chinacats]

Hawthorn lost six H&A games last year including FOUR to teams that didn't make the finals (Port Adelaide x2, GWS, Essendon).

The only finalists they lost to were Sydney and Richmond.

A sobering thought amongst all the melts.

yet their finals record is awesome too. Ours is poor since 2012- a sobering reminder!

 

[Stan The Caddy]

For me the equation is simple. If we make the top 4 we're a chance and if we don't, we're not. The rest is elementary IMO.

 

[Larry Donohue]

Your reckoning does NOT allow for our form against sides outside top 8, hence, conservatively, 4 more losses..

The sad reality is, and CS said it perfectly on Mon pm- we need to be near our best to win close games, Hawthorn doesn't. BIG major difference. As he said, we are NOT at their level.
Our best is great, but we are not going to get that when we want it or expect it. Simple. Too unreliable and inconsistent and unproven under all sorts of pressure to be in the same equation as Hawks at this stage. No crime, still time.

Doesn't really matter what CS said, coaches often play the unders approach. If we meet Hawks in finals at full strength I reckon we pound them. We have Caddy, Cockatoo, Clark, S.Selwood to enter the fray.
I think we have strengths that Hawks are miles from
Spine of Lonergan, Taylor, Selwood, Clark and Hawkins
vs Frawley, Gibson, Mitchell, O'Brien, Sicily
mids of Dangerfield, Selwood, Selwood, Guthrie, Duncan, Blitz, Caddy, Cockatoo
vs Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Hartung, Smith, Hill, Shiel
defense of Taylor, Enright, Henderson, Lonergan, Mackie, Kolo, Ruggles
vs Frawley, Gibson, Stratton, Burgoyne, Birchall, Duryea
Forwards of Hawkins, Clarke, Kersten, Menzel, Motlop, McCarthy
vs Sicily, O'Brien, Gunston, Breust, Rioli, Puopolo

I reckon we stand head and shoulders above them. Wishes for us to take over the mantle as era dynasty champions with 4 flags apiece and Geelong with the better forward look.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

We are not hawthorn.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Your reckoning does NOT allow for our form against sides outside top 8, hence, conservatively, 4 more losses..

The sad reality is, and CS said it perfectly on Mon pm- we need to be near our best to win close games, Hawthorn doesn't. BIG major difference. As he said, we are NOT at their level.
Our best is great, but we are not going to get that when we want it or expect it. Simple. Too unreliable and inconsistent and unproven under all sorts of pressure to be in the same equation as Hawks at this stage. No crime, still time.

Hawthorn are not going to beat either of the sydney sides in a knockout final.doesnt mean we will win either though we have a lot of work to do.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

What amazes me is that there is a group on people (particularly Geelong supporters) who seem to think that in a period of transition (inevitable) that there will be no drop in performance. It was clear from early on that 2012-2016 would be difficult for us, and that to remain a force we needed to play kids and get game time into them. I have over the weeks seen kids like Kolodjashnij, McCarthy, Lang, Gregson and others cop a pretty raw bake for their performances. The expectations of these players (who will be top draw performers in time) is totally unrealistic.

Scott said from day 1, that he was looking toward 2016 and developing a side that would be a powerhouse...taking a champion but aging outfit from Premiership status through a transition back to the top without bottoming out. Right now he seems to be achieving that...criticism of him is both unwarranted and premature.

Here we stand at 10-4 playing kid after kid after kid...getting game time and experience into their minds and bodies yet we have (cough) supporters using a loss to be critical and negative...its a little sad imo.

Clearly we have been spoilt and maybe we older heads remember the days when we couldn't even be considered for finals let alone dream of being 10-4 after 14.

Making finals is an achievement...not the ultimate...but an achievement all the same. Perhaps we should lower our eyes a little...take the first step and aim for that, and then see what we can do in September. Another season into the kids...add a little finals know-how, then another pre-season..I think with our group, and what may come we look pretty good for the future.

Perhaps all this vitriol is a product of the "now" generation. The club is doing all right...embrace it and watch it grow...there is exciting times ahead.

 

[dazbroncos]

I have a sobering reminder.

Had new carpet laid a few months ago and my son just put a a stack of super glue into it. F***#££|+£~£'f

Right in the effing centre of the walkway into the house.

Double f^*^+|?~£~*€~+

Acetone will get the glue out......



Probably strip the carpet right back to the underlay too.... but at least the superglue will be gone....

Go Catters

 

[Partridge]

What amazes me is that there is a group on people (particularly Geelong supporters) who seem to think that in a period of transition (inevitable) that there will be no drop in performance. It was clear from early on that 2012-2016 would be difficult for us, and that to remain a force we needed to play kids and get game time into them. I have over the weeks seen kids like Kolodjashnij, McCarthy, Lang, Gregson and others cop a pretty raw bake for their performances. The expectations of these players (who will be top draw performers in time) is totally unrealistic.

Scott said from day 1, that he was looking toward 2016 and developing a side that would be a powerhouse...taking a champion but aging outfit from Premiership status through a transition back to the top without bottoming out. Right now he seems to be achieving that...criticism of him is both unwarranted and premature.

That would be reasonable, and mostly is, except for the fact that from 2013-2014 we seemed to be contending pretty strongly for a premiership. Certainly on this board I can't recall too many saying to not worry about the finals those years as we were in transition. No doubt those that were the most certain we would win a flag have backpedalled the most on those calls. That to me is disingenuous. In 2013 (along with 2008 one of the great blown seasons) especially and less so in 2014 we were definitely contending. Those teams were not in transition.

Another point is the words of our senior coach in the years 2012-2014. For three successive seasons he stated that we would be playing our best football in September. He did not say we were in transition. Instead we played our worst football in finals. Hopefully, if they finish in a strong position this year, they can do better.

There's no major disaster in having a poor year, there's no major issue in the side developing new players and showing hiccups along the way. That's part of sport. But to pretend we were never contending in the last 4 years, and that no one expected a flag or anything, is not correct.

And before anyone asks, I don't expect them to win a flag this year. I would have hoped for 5th-8th at the start of the year, now I'm hoping for top 4. It'll be curious to see if we do finish top 4, how many put their hands up and say "nup, we aren't going for a premiership, we're in transition". It'll be interesting to watch.

 

[catempire]

What amazes me is that there is a group on people (particularly Geelong supporters) who seem to think that in a period of transition (inevitable) that there will be no drop in performance. It was clear from early on that 2012-2016 would be difficult for us, and that to remain a force we needed to play kids and get game time into them. I have over the weeks seen kids like Kolodjashnij, McCarthy, Lang, Gregson and others cop a pretty raw bake for their performances. The expectations of these players (who will be top draw performers in time) is totally unrealistic.

Scott said from day 1, that he was looking toward 2016 and developing a side that would be a powerhouse...taking a champion but aging outfit from Premiership status through a transition back to the top without bottoming out. Right now he seems to be achieving that...criticism of him is both unwarranted and premature.

Here we stand at 10-4 playing kid after kid after kid...getting game time and experience into their minds and bodies yet we have (cough) supporters using a loss to be critical and negative...its a little sad imo.

Clearly we have been spoilt and maybe we older heads remember the days when we couldn't even be considered for finals let alone dream of being 10-4 after 14.

Making finals is an achievement...not the ultimate...but an achievement all the same. Perhaps we should lower our eyes a little...take the first step and aim for that, and then see what we can do in September. Another season into the kids...add a little finals know-how, then another pre-season..I think with our group, and what may come we look pretty good for the future.

Perhaps all this vitriol is a product of the "now" generation. The club is doing all right...embrace it and watch it grow...there is exciting times ahead.

Early contender for Post of July.

 

[catempire]

That would be reasonable, and mostly is, except for the fact that from 2013-2014 we seemed to be contending pretty strongly for a premiership. Certainly on this board I can't recall too many saying to not worry about the finals those years as we were in transition. No doubt those that were the most certain we would win a flag have backpedalled the most on those calls. That to me is disingenuous. In 2013 (along with 2008 one of the great blown seasons) especially and less so in 2014 we were definitely contending. Those teams were not in transition.

Another point is the words of our senior coach in the years 2012-2014. For three successive seasons he stated that we would be playing our best football in September. He did not say we were in transition. Instead we played our worst football in finals. Hopefully, if they finish in a strong position this year, they can do better.

There's no major disaster in having a poor year, there's no major issue in the side developing new players and showing hiccups along the way. That's part of sport. But to pretend we were never contending in the last 4 years, and that no one expected a flag or anything, is not correct.

And before anyone asks, I don't expect them to win a flag this year. I would have hoped for 5th-8th at the start of the year, now I'm hoping for top 4. It'll be curious to see if we do finish top 4, how many put their hands up and say "nup, we aren't going for a premiership, we're in transition". It'll be interesting to watch.

We were defying gravity in 2013-14. We had been written off by the pundits since 2010 but, yes, we kept on competing.

But just because we were competing, that doesn't mean it was planned or there were internal expectations that we could go all the way. It also doesn't mean that once we were there we weren't trying to win the whole thing; I've got no doubt we were.

It comes back to this discussion about the "pass mark". Pass marks are set ex ante. If things go better than expected, sure, shift your goals but the pass mark remains the same. If you fail to reach the higher goal you have set down the track, you can still have achieved your original, reasonable, goals. We did in 2013-14 - our enduring pre-season "pass mark" is to make the top 4 and we did in those years.

In 2013-14 we were just not good enough. It was a hard reality to accept at the time when it looked like we were in the mix but easy to see now in hindsight. We lacked the cattle to win the flag. No ruckman. A clearly inferior midfield to the top teams. Premiership stars that were past their prime. Our young stars crippled by injuries or at least often so.

So for me the coach and club deserve credit for getting this side in a shape that could compete in 2013-14. It's not a criticism that we didn't achieve ultimate success in those years.

 

[Cataholic]

I have a sobering reminder.

Had new carpet laid a few months ago and my son just put a a stack of super glue into it. F***#££|+£~£'f

Right in the effing centre of the walkway into the house.

Double f^*^+|?~£~*€~+

Put a carpet tile on top.

The glue should hold it.....

 

[Vdubs]

That would be reasonable, and mostly is, except for the fact that from 2013-2014 we seemed to be contending pretty strongly for a premiership. Certainly on this board I can't recall too many saying to not worry about the finals those years as we were in transition. No doubt those that were the most certain we would win a flag have backpedalled the most on those calls. That to me is disingenuous. In 2013 (along with 2008 one of the great blown seasons) especially and less so in 2014 we were definitely contending. Those teams were not in transition.

Another point is the words of our senior coach in the years 2012-2014. For three successive seasons he stated that we would be playing our best football in September. He did not say we were in transition. Instead we played our worst football in finals. Hopefully, if they finish in a strong position this year, they can do better.

There's no major disaster in having a poor year, there's no major issue in the side developing new players and showing hiccups along the way. That's part of sport. But to pretend we were never contending in the last 4 years, and that no one expected a flag or anything, is not correct.

And before anyone asks, I don't expect them to win a flag this year. I would have hoped for 5th-8th at the start of the year, now I'm hoping for top 4. It'll be curious to see if we do finish top 4, how many put their hands up and say "nup, we aren't going for a premiership, we're in transition". It'll be interesting to watch.

Totally agree with your summation.
Preseason, top 8, now, with our recruits firing and our form v contenders, top 4 is a hope.
We all know how everything must go right to actually win a flag, most importantly on GF day, but all through September, so the team left with closest to their best and fittest list will win.
We are reliant on many iffy players, and that could haunt us, but at our very best, we are near to the most exciting team to watch.
Can not ask for a lot more.
Last 2 years, we were not even entertaining.
A flag this year would be an absolute bonus.

 

[Partridge]

In 2013-14 we were just not good enough. It was a hard reality to accept at the time when it looked like we were in the mix but easy to see now in hindsight. We lacked the cattle to win the flag. No ruckman. A clearly inferior midfield to the top teams. Premiership stars that were past their prime. Our young stars crippled by injuries or at least often so.

So for me the coach and club deserve credit for getting this side in a shape that could compete in 2013-14. It's not a criticism that we didn't achieve ultimate success in those years.

2014 I agree, but not 2013. We had smashed every other top 4 team during home and away and were 5-0 against them. Until September. So I don't buy for one second that our midfield was inferior. To me 2013 was one of the great lost opportunities.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

That would be reasonable, and mostly is, except for the fact that from 2013-2014 we seemed to be contending pretty strongly for a premiership. Certainly on this board I can't recall too many saying to not worry about the finals those years as we were in transition. No doubt those that were the most certain we would win a flag have backpedalled the most on those calls. That to me is disingenuous. In 2013 (along with 2008 one of the great blown seasons) especially and less so in 2014 we were definitely contending. Those teams were not in transition.

Another point is the words of our senior coach in the years 2012-2014. For three successive seasons he stated that we would be playing our best football in September. He did not say we were in transition. Instead we played our worst football in finals. Hopefully, if they finish in a strong position this year, they can do better.

There's no major disaster in having a poor year, there's no major issue in the side developing new players and showing hiccups along the way. That's part of sport. But to pretend we were never contending in the last 4 years, and that no one expected a flag or anything, is not correct.

And before anyone asks, I don't expect them to win a flag this year. I would have hoped for 5th-8th at the start of the year, now I'm hoping for top 4. It'll be curious to see if we do finish top 4, how many put their hands up and say "nup, we aren't going for a premiership, we're in transition". It'll be interesting to watch.

I think that says more about the standard of the competition than it does anything else. The compromised drafts with the two new franchises sugarcoated our transition somewhat and enabled us to stay above the chasing pack.

 

[catempire]

2014 I agree, but not 2013. We had smashed every other top 4 team during home and away and were 5-0 against them. Until September. So I don't buy for one second that our midfield was inferior. To me 2013 was one of the great lost opportunities.

Those victories masked the, now obvious, problems:

9th in contested posession differentials.
17th in clearance differentials.

Not premiership standard.

It was something of a coaching masterstroke to put us in contention despite those numbers.

 

[Lana]

2014 I agree, but not 2013. We had smashed every other top 4 team during home and away and were 5-0 against them. Until September. So I don't buy for one second that our midfield was inferior. To me 2013 was one of the great lost opportunities.

I felt that in 2013 we were a small amount of luck away from a grand final. No Enright(ankle in the qualifying final) or Chapman (suspension), Hawkins back so was stuffed that he missed the qualifying final and Dawson going down after showing his career best form leaving us without a proper ruck. Any one of those go our way and we probably would have held on in the 4th against Hawthorn. With Chapman and Enright back we probably would have had given Freemantle a decent shot in the grand final given their jitters on the day. Definitely a lost chance but it wasn't lost through negligence, it is often not enough to be the best, sometime you really need things to fall your way ( Compare the balance of all of the little things that went our way in 2009 and 2011 to the things that didn't in 2008 and 2010).

After the second game against Hawthorn in 2014, felt that we were in a good position to win it that year, our first half was a a dominant as their second. But that game was really the beginning of the end as we suffered a lot of injuries leading up to the finals. We lost both guys in our best 22 and our immediate depth. Guys like Walker, Brown, McCarthy and Thurlow shouldn't have been playing in the finals for us that year (They weren't even our preferred depth players let alone being close to best 22) and we took injured players into the qualifying final (Johnson and McIntosh, and Kelly was NQR against North) and we paid for it in full. We didn't really have a chance with the players we fielded on the day, with better luck we would have given it a better shot. It is hard to know if with a close to full list whether we would have been good enough to win it.

Those victories masked the, now obvious, problems:

9th in contested posession differentials.
17th in clearance differentials.

Not premiership standard.

It was something of a coaching masterstroke to put us in contention despite those numbers.

I fell like our record in the contested possessions and clearances were kind of irrelevant given our setups at the time (It doesn't matter if we lose the differentials if we ensured that the opposition's inside work was of poor quality), if we wanted the differentials to be better we would have had a different setup. But we didn't since it wouldn't have made us more likely to win. IMO Scott's press conferences were just misdirection, I can't remember the last time I've trusted a word he has said in them, it's just a performance.

 

[catempire]

I fell like our record in the contested possessions and clearances were kind of irrelevant given our setups at the time (It doesn't matter if we lose the differentials if we ensured that the opposition's inside work was of poor quality), if we wanted the differentials to be better we would have had a different setup. But we didn't since it wouldn't have made us more likely to win. IMO Scott's press conferences were just misdirection, I can't remember the last time I've trusted a word he has said in them, it's just a performance.

They were only irrelevant to the extent that the coaching staff were good enough to put us in a position where they could be (almost) irrelevant. Conventional wisdom was you couldn't win with those numbers. That has now proven to be true.

And it goes both ways - if we could have set up differently to do better in those areas I have no doubt we would have. Scott et al recognised we had a deficiency in those areas, tried something different, it didn't quite work but nearly did. Kudos to them for trying.

My point is I don't accept it was a failure by not achieving ultimate success with that approach.