A Tale of Alcock and Clarkeson

[Talking Dockers]

In yesterdays TheWest and interview with Clarkson stated that the aim for the Hawks after RD 17 was to make the top eight and exposure the youngsters in the side to finals footy.The Hawks have done much better than just scrape into the top 8.

Our President's interview concluded with him saying that finals was not as important as playing consistent football and winning on the road. Now Dale,Mark Harvey had a three yr rebuild/renovation in 2008,2009&2010 and made the finals in 2010 and beat the 2008 Premiers in the Hawks but went down to the Cats in the second week at the MCG. The experience that this young group got in 2010 was invaluable for RTB to work with in 2012(beat the Cats 2011 Premiers at MCG) and 2013.

The point I'm making is that our president(& probably the board) are setting the bar too low. Our youngsters need to experience finals very much sooner than later for their development.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

In yesterdays TheWest and interview with Clarkson stated that the aim for the Hawks after RD 17 was to make the top eight and exposure the youngsters in the side to finals footy.The Hawks have done much better than just scrape into the top 8.

Our President's interview concluded with him saying that finals was not as important as playing consistent football and winning on the road. Now Dale,Mark Harvey had a three yr rebuild/renovation in 2008,2009&2010 and made the finals in 2010 and beat the 2008 Premiers in the Hawks but went down to the Cats in the second week at the MCG. The experience that this young group got in 2010 was invaluable for RTB to work with in 2012(beat the Cats 2011 Premiers at MCG) and 2013.

The point I'm making is that our president(& probably the board) are setting the bar too low. Our youngsters need to experience finals very much sooner than later for their development.

Agree. But If I were in charge, id be taking a baseball bat to our list management team and strategy.

Our backline is solid, but we consistently cannot score... people blame Ross, but what tools have we ever given him to use? Seriously, who was the last forwardline player we have recruited in the top 20 of the draft? The game has evolved, and I’m sure Ross would love to be more attacking, but we consistently draft small to mid sized midfielders with our early picks and seem to think that rookie listers and late picks will do the job? Who was the last rookie listed key forward to dominate?

We also hear that we will be aggressive at the trade table, but guess what, you can’t force key forwards to come here... so the void continues...

Alcock and the club needs to treat things more like a business. Demand high performance, and ruthlessly cut ties with underperformers or players who may be a flight risk in free agency. Take sentiment out of it. Look at the New England patriots who I despise.

Finally, demand answers on why we have recieved so little from our first round picks. Why is it that Sheridan and tucker are not makin the grade. Why is it that historically we underperform with our selections

Demand excellence absolutely, but it is not just an on field issue. Demand excellence from the people building the wasteland that is our list and expect our coach (who has plenty of areas to improve) to perform miracles.

The biggest underperfomers at our club in the last 5 years has been Chris bond and Brad Lloyd. High standards are important, but in an industry that relies on skill, fitness and ability, you need to collect the right talent and make the right list movements to have even a chance. Look at those mongrels across the river who forever seem to make he right list choices

 

[mightymouse75]

Agree. But If I were in charge, id be taking a baseball bat to our list management team and strategy.

Our backline is solid, but we consistently cannot score... people blame Ross, but what tools have we ever given him to use? Seriously, who was the last forwardline player we have recruited in the top 20 of the draft? The game has evolved, and I’m sure Ross would love to be more attacking, but we consistently draft small to mid sized midfielders with our early picks and seem to think that rookie listers and late picks will do the job? Who was the last rookie listed key forward to dominate?

We also hear that we will be aggressive at the trade table, but guess what, you can’t force key forwards to come here... so the void continues...

Alcock and the club needs to treat things more like a business. Demand high performance, and ruthlessly cut ties with underperformers or players who may be a flight risk in free agency. Take sentiment out of it. Look at the New England patriots who I despise.

Finally, demand answers on why we have recieved so little from our first round picks. Why is it that Sheridan and tucker are not makin the grade. Why is it that historically we underperform with our selections

Demand excellence absolutely, but it is not just an on field issue. Demand excellence from the people building the wasteland that is our list and expect our coach (who has plenty of areas to improve) to perform miracles.

The biggest underperfomers at our club in the last 5 years has been Chris bond and Brad Lloyd. High standards are important, but in an industry that relies on skill, fitness and ability, you need to collect the right talent and make the right list movements to have even a chance. Look at those mongrels across the river who forever seem to make he right list choices

Well loyds gone now.

 

[Talking Dockers]

Agree. But If I were in charge, id be taking a baseball bat to our list management team and strategy.

Our backline is solid, but we consistently cannot score... people blame Ross, but what tools have we ever given him to use? Seriously, who was the last forwardline player we have recruited in the top 20 of the draft? The game has evolved, and I’m sure Ross would love to be more attacking, but we consistently draft small to mid sized midfielders with our early picks and seem to think that rookie listers and late picks will do the job? Who was the last rookie listed key forward to dominate?

We also hear that we will be aggressive at the trade table, but guess what, you can’t force key forwards to come here... so the void continues...

Alcock and the club needs to treat things more like a business. Demand high performance, and ruthlessly cut ties with underperformers or players who may be a flight risk in free agency. Take sentiment out of it. Look at the New England patriots who I despise.

Finally, demand answers on why we have recieved so little from our first round picks. Why is it that Sheridan and tucker are not makin the grade. Why is it that historically we underperform with our selections

Demand excellence absolutely, but it is not just an on field issue. Demand excellence from the people building the wasteland that is our list and expect our coach (who has plenty of areas to improve) to perform miracles.

The biggest underperfomers at our club in the last 5 years has been Chris bond and Brad Lloyd. High standards are important, but in an industry that relies on skill, fitness and ability, you need to collect the right talent and make the right list movements to have even a chance. Look at those mongrels across the river who forever seem to make he right list choices

Agree with you on Chris Bond a very ordinary performer as a Footy Operations Manager. Lloyd hasn't had too may success stories with 1st Rd picks until 2017 but his success rate with lower picks, mature agers and rookie picks is much better. Kochie said Good Organizations win Premierships.

We(Dockers)but a very long way off.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

Agree with you on Chris Bond a very ordinary performer as a Footy Operations Manager. Lloyd hasn't had too may success stories with 1st Rd picks until 2017 but his success rate with lower picks, mature agers and rookie picks is much better. Kochie said Good Organizations win Premierships.

We(Dockers)but a very long way off.

Jury is still well and truly out on Logue, brayshaw and cerra too

 

[blue shark]

Jury is still well and truly out on Logue, brayshaw and cerra too

McCarthy was a first round pick, Kersten was a second round, both have gone backwoods? To blame all our woes on the
players is why we will never improve.
Even the Bulldogs won a GF with a limited forward line, Ross is Lost, and we are on the roundabout rebuild that every coach uses to fans to be patient.
Instead of reinventing the club, gameplan, we are now being sold a pup.

 

[DannyTheDoorman]

Agree. But If I were in charge, id be taking a baseball bat to our list management team and strategy.

Our backline is solid, but we consistently cannot score... people blame Ross, but what tools have we ever given him to use? Seriously, who was the last forwardline player we have recruited in the top 20 of the draft? The game has evolved, and I’m sure Ross would love to be more attacking, but we consistently draft small to mid sized midfielders with our early picks and seem to think that rookie listers and late picks will do the job? Who was the last rookie listed key forward to dominate?

We also hear that we will be aggressive at the trade table, but guess what, you can’t force key forwards to come here... so the void continues...

Alcock and the club needs to treat things more like a business. Demand high performance, and ruthlessly cut ties with underperformers or players who may be a flight risk in free agency. Take sentiment out of it. Look at the New England patriots who I despise.

Finally, demand answers on why we have recieved so little from our first round picks. Why is it that Sheridan and tucker are not makin the grade. Why is it that historically we underperform with our selections

Demand excellence absolutely, but it is not just an on field issue. Demand excellence from the people building the wasteland that is our list and expect our coach (who has plenty of areas to improve) to perform miracles.

The biggest underperfomers at our club in the last 5 years has been Chris bond and Brad Lloyd. High standards are important, but in an industry that relies on skill, fitness and ability, you need to collect the right talent and make the right list movements to have even a chance. Look at those mongrels across the river who forever seem to make he right list choices

Just for your info Tommy Sheridan was a first rounder at Pick 16 in 2011 and has played 81 games. Darcy Tuckey wasn't first round but Pick 27 in 2015 and to date has played 48 games in 3 years and obviously by his high number of games he is doing what the Coaches and Match Committee are expecting of him.

I think your being a bit hard on Darcy who averages 16 games per season in his 3 seasons as against Tommy who hasn't ever had major injury worries and who averages just over 11 games a season in his 7 seasons.

I am not defending Bondy but he doesn't recruit/draft the players nor do the trades nor extend Contracts that was Lloyd's job as General Manager List Management. Bondy is Ross's direct Boss so we can have a go at him for the game plan and it's deficiencies and Match Committee for team selection and of course Ross's performance as Head Coach.

 

[Wigarus]

In yesterdays TheWest and interview with Clarkson stated that the aim for the Hawks after RD 17 was to make the top eight and exposure the youngsters in the side to finals footy.The Hawks have done much better than just scrape into the top 8.

Our President's interview concluded with him saying that finals was not as important as playing consistent football and winning on the road. Now Dale,Mark Harvey had a three yr rebuild/renovation in 2008,2009&2010 and made the finals in 2010 and beat the 2008 Premiers in the Hawks but went down to the Cats in the second week at the MCG. The experience that this young group got in 2010 was invaluable for RTB to work with in 2012(beat the Cats 2011 Premiers at MCG) and 2013.

The point I'm making is that our president(& probably the board) are setting the bar too low. Our youngsters need to experience finals very much sooner than later for their development.

BigFooty in a nutshell. The biggest builder in the state is accused of not being ambitious enough by someone who typed "exposure the youngsters".

 

[awaremind]

Don’t seem to be matching it with the better teams on skills or fitness, and that can be dis heartening. Have to work really hard on both and also foward structure and game plan in the preseason, and then we may jump up. Less injuries should be a result of better fitness, and better skills not putting players under as much pressure. Iid say no8, no job to Ross and see what he can do. Lots of people on last chances.

 

[BettercallSaul]

Hopefully Alcock is practicing a stratagem of "under promise and over deliver". Here's hoping anyway.

 

[One_Wing]

In yesterdays TheWest and interview with Clarkson stated that the aim for the Hawks after RD 17 was to make the top eight and exposure the youngsters in the side to finals footy.The Hawks have done much better than just scrape into the top 8.

Our President's interview concluded with him saying that finals was not as important as playing consistent football and winning on the road. Now Dale,Mark Harvey had a three yr rebuild/renovation in 2008,2009&2010 and made the finals in 2010 and beat the 2008 Premiers in the Hawks but went down to the Cats in the second week at the MCG. The experience that this young group got in 2010 was invaluable for RTB to work with in 2012(beat the Cats 2011 Premiers at MCG) and 2013.

The point I'm making is that our president(& probably the board) are setting the bar too low. Our youngsters need to experience finals very much sooner than later for their development.

Lets be real though, contrary to the narrative the Hawks have one of the most experienced lists in the comp. I mean terrific list management by them and terrible by us but the two positions are not comparable.

 

[its free real estate]

BigFooty in a nutshell. The biggest builder in the state is accused of not being ambitious enough by someone who typed "exposure the youngsters".

Why would his ambition in home building be reflected in football? Maybe he directs all his energies where he can make money.

 

[Galvo]

Don’t seem to be matching it with the better teams on skills or fitness, and that can be dis heartening. Have to work really hard on both and also foward structure and game plan in the preseason, and then we may jump up. Less injuries should be a result of better fitness, and better skills not putting players under as much pressure. Iid say no8, no job to Ross and see what he can do. Lots of people on last chances.

I think we under rate how important fitness is with regards to skills. It’s two fold in that the player passing will execute better when not fatigue. Fitness for the receiver allows them to get separation and run to correct for any slightly offline passes. Since the pass doesn’t need to be as precise there is less pressure on the kicker.

We’re not lacking in players with skill. Wilson, Ryan, S.Hill, Walters, Mundy, Cerra, McCarthy are all elite kicks of the footy. Our ability to two way run and create separation from our opponents is pretty poor though. Hopefully this comes with preseason but the number of injuries we have means we always seem to have players building back to fitness. That puts more load on the fit players and skills suffer as a result

I have a conspiracy theory that we’ve deliberately reduced the amount of running we do in preseasons to expose the less skilled players like DeBoer, Mzungu, Surclffe, D.Pearce, Barlow etc. so they can’t rely on effort to make the grade to enable the club to transition the list to a higher skilled set of players

 

[Crippa]

Even the Bulldogs won a GF with a limited forward line, Ross is Lost, and we are on the roundabout rebuild that every coach uses to fans to be patient.
Instead of reinventing the club, gameplan, we are now being sold a pup.

Get real. The Bulldogs invested $7 million in a top line KPF who then proceeded to win them the GF off his own boot. To quote Bevo:

Tom Boyd could walk away from the AFL after his brilliant grand final performance and the mega-trade from GWS would still be worth every penny. "He can graduate, throw his hat in the air and never come back and play another game - he was unbelievable"

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/17690049/star-bulldog-tom-boyd-justifies-afl-mega-trade-gws

 

[blue shark]

Get real. The Bulldogs invested $7 million in a top line KPF who then proceeded to win them the GF off his own boot. To quote Bevo:

Tom Boyd could walk away from the AFL after his brilliant grand final performance and the mega-trade from GWS would still be worth every penny. "He can graduate, throw his hat in the air and never come back and play another game - he was unbelievable"

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/17690049/star-bulldog-tom-boyd-justifies-afl-mega-trade-gws

That article was written straight after the GF win, as you would expect in jubilation. Boyd also played ruck, but the fact
remains that year they didn't have the greatest forward line. Winning from 7th place, they took their chance, but Beverage's
thinking out of the square was influential.
Boyd has had issues with depression from the pressure of that contract, Stringer's issues are well documented, these guys had a good year, to say they are top line is misleading.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

McCarthy was a first round pick, Kersten was a second round, both have gone backwoods? To blame all our woes on the
players is why we will never improve.
Even the Bulldogs won a GF with a limited forward line, Ross is Lost, and we are on the roundabout rebuild that every coach uses to fans to be patient.
Instead of reinventing the club, gameplan, we are now being sold a pup.

I think it’s too simplistic to blame Ross. He hasn’t performed well this year I agree, but our list strategy seems to have centred around not building a forwardline with high end talent? How can any coach succeed with that? Don’t get me wrong, Ross has a case to answer and if we don’t improve next year then I believe he will be moved on, but bond and Lloyd have in no way made it easy on him.

It winds me up because the eagles, who I hate, yes hate, more than anything else in the world have taken the approach that you can turn ordinary players into good defenders but you can’t turn ordinary players into good forwards. So they have stocked up in the forwardline, and with a solid game plan, middle of the road to below average midfield and backline sit second on the ladder.

I honestly think the vision by bond and lloyd is wrong, and it was only the excellent coaching and solid recruiting of previous regimes that saw us succeed.

 

[Ausbenito]

I think it’s too simplistic to blame Ross. He hasn’t performed well this year I agree, but our list strategy seems to have centred around not building a forwardline with high end talent? How can any coach succeed with that? Don’t get me wrong, Ross has a case to answer and if we don’t improve next year then I believe he will be moved on, but bond and Lloyd have in no way made it easy on him.

It winds me up because the eagles, who I hate, yes hate, more than anything else in the world have taken the approach that you can turn ordinary players into good defenders but you can’t turn ordinary players into good forwards. So they have stocked up in the forwardline, and with a solid game plan, middle of the road to below average midfield and backline sit second on the ladder.

I honestly think the vision by bond and lloyd is wrong, and it was only the excellent coaching and solid recruiting of previous regimes that saw us succeed.

The Eagles have made us look silly at the draft table time and time again again over the last decade they keep drafting the same types with the same results even worried that Brayshaw looks a Lachie Neale clone type in the making will be great little footballer but game changer at pick3 no. Tucker started out well but looks to be getting slower every season why he is only 21?
Still have high hopes for Logue see him playing the intercepting defender for next 10 years cant fault the reasoning there.

 

[salim malik]

I think it’s too simplistic to blame Ross. He hasn’t performed well this year I agree, but our list strategy seems to have centred around not building a forwardline with high end talent? How can any coach succeed with that? Don’t get me wrong, Ross has a case to answer and if we don’t improve next year then I believe he will be moved on, but bond and Lloyd have in no way made it easy on him.

It winds me up because the eagles, who I hate, yes hate, more than anything else in the world have taken the approach that you can turn ordinary players into good defenders but you can’t turn ordinary players into good forwards. So they have stocked up in the forwardline, and with a solid game plan, middle of the road to below average midfield and backline sit second on the ladder.

I honestly think the vision by bond and lloyd is wrong, and it was only the excellent coaching and solid recruiting of previous regimes that saw us succeed.

Our greatest and only decent key forward was taken with the only top pick we have used on a KPF.
Clive doesnt count, not really sure what he was

 

[Silent Alarm]

The big thing is how Hawthorn progress their young players.

It's an affordability of success, so if you started it at Fremantle now you'd need patience, but the idea is:

– Give guys time to develop. Most blokes who are axed after a season or two have a s**t attitude or aren't fully committed
– Playing Box Hill enables them to hone their craft, come up against actual built bodies (usually for the first time – see the TAC Cup), brush shoulders with big AFL players who are returning from injury, learn a game style, and then put on bulk and endurance in the Hawks gym
– Box Hill's a successful side with its own culture and standards
– If you have three years of elite development then when you come into the side, you have no excuses. If you don't impose yourself after 10 games, then you probably never will
– This enables you to slowly blood players
– Getting in a guy in round 1, two in round 6, etc. and having 4-5 debutants (maybe one stars, the rest get a taste) enables guys to learn quickly and not have to put up with mass floggings. Builds confidence, enables them to segue into taking the game on themselves, lowers pressure but allows them to harness it if they want
– Gradual fading in and out of players is a much better way to rebuild. You keep the same intangible spine and elements of a team despite the tiles slowly changing completely
– Hawthorn explore all avenues and are open to short-term fixes in areas where they know an 'academy' player will come through in two years

This idea of pushing and pushing and pushing, then overplaying old guys and being stuck in a situation where you reached too hard is dangerous. Not all rebuilds build back up. And if you look at most examples of hardcore rebuilds – which it seems we're trying to do – they have a set back. All you need is one bad draft or a coaching change and suddenly the outlook is different and you're re-starting the re-build. Dees didn't play finals for over ten years, Lions still haven't, Saints are in for a world of hurt, Blues are going to be in a do-or-die situation next year.

It's a bit like those blokes who have a girlfriend they don't really like. They didn't get that many roots beforehand, but they've got a girl who's alright to chat to, alright looking, never really made memories, but ya know... she's okay. But he reckons he can do better if he ditches her right now. There's a good chance he will not pick back up or get a better girlfriend. In fact, he could struggle even more after the weight gain and years did him no charm... you know?

 

[its free real estate]

The big thing is how Hawthorn progress their young players.

It's an affordability of success, so if you started it at Fremantle now you'd need patience, but the idea is:

– Give guys time to develop. Most blokes who are axed after a season or two have a s**t attitude or aren't fully committed
– Playing Box Hill enables them to hone their craft, come up against actual built bodies (usually for the first time – see the TAC Cup), brush shoulders with big AFL players who are returning from injury, learn a game style, and then put on bulk and endurance in the Hawks gym
– Box Hill's a successful side with its own culture and standards
– If you have three years of elite development then when you come into the side, you have no excuses. If you don't impose yourself after 10 games, then you probably never will
– This enables you to slowly blood players
– Getting in a guy in round 1, two in round 6, etc. and having 4-5 debutants (maybe one stars, the rest get a taste) enables guys to learn quickly and not have to put up with mass floggings. Builds confidence, enables them to segue into taking the game on themselves, lowers pressure but allows them to harness it if they want
– Gradual fading in and out of players is a much better way to rebuild. You keep the same intangible spine and elements of a team despite the tiles slowly changing completely
– Hawthorn explore all avenues and are open to short-term fixes in areas where they know an 'academy' player will come through in two years

This idea of pushing and pushing and pushing, then overplaying old guys and being stuck in a situation where you reached too hard is dangerous. Not all rebuilds build back up. And if you look at most examples of hardcore rebuilds – which it seems we're trying to do – they have a set back. All you need is one bad draft or a coaching change and suddenly the outlook is different and you're re-starting the re-build. Dees didn't play finals for over ten years, Lions still haven't, Saints are in for a world of hurt, Blues are going to be in a do-or-die situation next year.

It's a bit like those blokes who have a girlfriend they don't really like. They didn't get that many roots beforehand, but they've got a girl who's alright to chat to, alright looking, never really made memories, but ya know... she's okay. But he reckons he can do better if he ditches her right now. There's a good chance he will not pick back up or get a better girlfriend. In fact, he could struggle even more after the weight gain and years did him no charm... you know?

Nonsense. Hawthorn have mixed and matched under Clarkson. Look at the age and experience of the sides they fielded in 2009 - routinely younger and less experienced than the ones we fielded this year.

Hawthorn went a full year without fielding a single team with an average age over 24, in the year after they won the premiership.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

Hawthorn will come back to the fold. It is inevitable

They are very much helped by

A. Having guns request to go their
B. Being in Melbourne.
C. Having a second home in tassie that nobody can beat them at
D. More “home” games

It’s not all that by any means, they certainly have culture and obviously a good program for development, but they definitely have it far easier than us in many respects. I guess my point is, is that we can’t bleat about it but it’s easier to build that juggernaut.

If we want to compare to anyone it needs to be the arseholes at West coast

 

[blue shark]

Hawthorn will come back to the fold. It is inevitable

They are very much helped by

A. Having guns request to go their
B. Being in Melbourne.
C. Having a second home in tassie that nobody can beat them at
D. More “home” games

It’s not all that by any means, they certainly have culture and obviously a good program for development, but they definitely have it far easier than us in many respects. I guess my point is, is that we can’t bleat about it but it’s easier to build that juggernaut.

If we want to compare to anyone it needs to be the arseholes at West coast

We are so poorly run compared to them though, and it looks like it's getting worse the longer this year goes. Our rebuild
plan, wink wink, load up with early picks because you don't have to develop them at all?
When was the last time WC had a top pick? The comparison is chalk and cheese.
Off the field they are a powerhouse of the AFL, we have gone back to a laughing stock. The only thing missing is the draft,
trade blunders, but there is still time.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

We are so poorly run compared to them though, and it looks like it's getting worse the longer this year goes. Our rebuild
plan, wink wink, load up with early picks because you don't have to develop them at all?
When was the last time WC had a top pick? The comparison is chalk and cheese.
Off the field they are a powerhouse of the AFL, we have gone back to a laughing stock. The only thing missing is the draft,
trade blunders, but there is still time.

Oh of course, I’m not saying there isn’t elements of what you say, just that hawthorn have it easier than what they would have you think. In fact all Victorian clubs do.

I hate the eagles with every fibre of my being, not only am I hoping they go out in straight sets this finals, but that they also get significant injuries that impact next year... but as far as a club they are the standard when need to get to

 

[Lach72]

Nonsense. Hawthorn have mixed and matched under Clarkson. Look at the age and experience of the sides they fielded in 2009 - routinely younger and less experienced than the ones we fielded this year.

Hawthorn went a full year without fielding a single team with an average age over 24, in the year after they won the premiership.

Wasn't that the year they were cruelled by injury?

 

[its free real estate]

Wasn't that the year they were cruelled by injury?

At the end of the year they were, they started off the season with a decent lineup, but it was still very, very young

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2009/091020090327.html

Three debutants the first game after a premiership. We couldn't play a single one in the first rounds of either 2016 or 2017.

Look at the age difference between us and the Dogs in 2016

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2016/070820160327.html

And we got pumped.