List Mgmt. Adelaide Crows 2021 List Management thread

[1970crow]

Still not over Pedler being dropped, he and McHenry must be playing at stoppages right now! Best two young instinct clearance ball winners on list.....

Neither are playing midfield

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Criminal that in a 'rebuild' year where we're guaranteed a bottom 4 finish we couldn't find a way to share midfield/forward duties amongst Keays, Sloane, Laird, Schoey, Berry, Pedlar and McHenry. I'm not suggesting even share across the board, but some time within games in rotations and also some games where the more experienced blokes that have worked the hardest get a planned breather at half forward that week. They're there if needed, but otherwise a few extra minutes that game for each of the others.

 

[Thetrader15]

Very interesting name I hadn't thought of before ...

Was listening to the ESPN champion data podcast this morning and they compared Brayden Fiorini's stats to Jack Macrae's through their first X amount of games (it was the number Fiorini has played to date), and they are very very similar

I hadn't watched a lot of Fiorini in the past, but his per minute stats are very impressive, he's only 23, and reading his draft as well as latest player profiles, he's supposed to be a good ball user and have versatility to go forward and back as well as run in the midfield obviously

He's not the exact sort of player we necessarily need, but given his age, per minute stats, and already proven ability at AFL level - he's the type of player that if you could get him for a reasonable trade price, and you give him a clear opportunity (like we gave Ben Keays), he could pay huge dividends down the road. He's younger than Dunstan, and more proven than Constable

I look at a guy like Jackson Hately - although he's young (and Fiorini and Hately are only roughly 3 years apart) - he hasn't really shown anywhere near the production Fiorini has shown at AFL level. I'd even go as far as to say that given the opportunities the Crows gave Hately at the start of the season, his development is a bit of a concern at this stage. He might end up being one of those players that stars in State leagues, but is never anything more than average at AFL level

Then you look at a guy like Matt Crouch - if he was to walk at any stage or there was more value in the Crows trading him than paying him what he's asking for - Fiorini could be a good insurance policy against that

There's always injuries too, and then you've got impending retirements (Sloane over the next few years)

There's far worse depth players you could have that don't have anywhere near the potential upside and proven production Fiorini already has at his age

The question is whether he's gettable and how much he would cost.

Gold Coast have still got to fit Elijah Hollands into that side, they've got more high draft picks this year, and Fiorini had been in and out of the side as it is.

I'm not against the idea if the Crows can explore it

I think the knock on him is his disposal, but he's a better option than Dumont and would be equally easy to aquire.

 

[FNeighbourhoodSpiderman]

Not a bad thought

Maybe Dew has a blind spot with Fiorini as he (and we) did with Jarryd Lyons

He has holes in his game that's for sure - not super quick, or a goal a game type goalkicker. Not flashy or a line breaker either.

But, he's currently elite at ball winning, and an above average ball user.

At his age and based on his per minute stats, you wonder what he could do with more development and opportunity in the midfield, or a role change perhaps to the backline.

You don't get 41 disposals in 71% game time, and get listed as your team's best player against a top 4 team like Brisbane (and with all the talent Gold Coast has in their team), by being a plodder.

Even Lyons wasn't doing that at that age (Lyons is 29 at the moment and has only really come on in the last 2 or 3 years)

It's kind of all moot though if Gold Coast don't want to trade him or the asking price is too high.

Thought it was worth the mention though.

 

[Thetrader15]

Yeah exactly, our issue isn’t finding solid B-Grade, maybe A minus type midfielders. We need to find bonefide A-Grade to Elite midfielders. Drafting in fringe midfielders from other teams on the cheap is a very low % method of doing this and in fact causes harm in that they clog up development pathways for this young mids with some genuine potential.

Guys like Dunstan, Dumont, Constable… I’ve no doubt they’re solid players who would likely push into the lower parts of our best 22. A rebuild is not about topping up players 12-22, it’s about finding your next core of 8-10+ A-Graders to win you a premiership.

You recruit the fringe types, the role players once you’ve sorted out the core and can recognize specific deficiencies that need filling.

I agree with your philosophy.

Can we trade in one of these types of guys, let's call them role players, and trade out Matt Crouch and not lose too much on field, but gain significantly in teh draft?

e.g. Fiorini + pick10 or Matt + pick 35?

 

[Gtowncrow]

identical situation to Orazio last year. What you'd accept this year while contracted is no less than you'd expect to get from the AFL in FA compo. If you don't offer that, you're not getting him and he'll play a contract year in 2022 at Essendon. Any talk about mental health, him phoning it, looking bad etc etc is just white noise, totally meaningless during trade discussions.

Disagree strongly.
A player with mental health worries is as significant as a player with injury worries.
Men's mental health is absolutely real and I'd be very confident that neither AFC or Essendon would be prepared to play hard ball if it might result in a negative mental health outcome for a player.

 

[Thetrader15]

He has holes in his game that's for sure - not super quick, or a goal a game type goalkicker. Not flashy or a line breaker either.

But, he's currently elite at ball winning, and an above average ball user.

At his age and based on his per minute stats, you wonder what he could do with more development and opportunity in the midfield, or a role change perhaps to the backline.

You don't get 41 disposals in 71% game time, and get listed as your team's best player against a top 4 team like Brisbane (and with all the talent Gold Coast has in their team), by being a plodder.

Even Lyons wasn't doing that at that age (Lyons is 29 at the moment and has only really come on in the last 2 or 3 years)

It's kind of all moot though if Gold Coast don't want to trade him or the asking price is too high.

Thought it was worth the mention though.

I think he's seriously on the outer at GC. Only played 5 games last year and now only played 6 this year when injuries struck. I think his papers have been stamped. In 2020, he signed until 2023, but I think they would be open to the prospect of trading him out.

 

[Scorpus]

Fiorini would be another Ben Keays

2

Ben Keays

Age

27

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.1

3star

K

5.8

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.9

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

13.7

3star

K

8.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.7

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

13.0

4star

K

4.8

2star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.4

2star

T

4.4

5star

G

0.4

3star

type but with less impact up forward. Not sure we need that sort of player (though I think he's better than Trent Dumont

43

Trent Dumont

Age

28

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.9

5star

K

10.5

4star

HB

9.4

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.1

5star

CL

2.6

4star

D

20.1

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

9.7

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.9

5star

CL

2.4

4star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

0.6

1star

T

4.4

5star

CL

2.6

5star

).

With Berry, Schoenberg and Pedlar all struggling for midfield time I don't see the value in a 23 year old predominantly inside player like that. If he was more a run and carry outside player then maybe

 

[skam85]

I think he's seriously on the outer at GC. Only played 5 games last year and now only played 6 this year when injuries struck. I think his papers have been stamped. In 2020, he signed until 2023, but I think they would be open to the prospect of trading him out.

GC are very clearly putting him in the shop window like we are with Himmelberg.

 

[Sanders]

More game and midfield opportunities

Has only played 3 games this year, Geelong has offered him a contract but he is exploring more game time opportunities

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How does that explain why we should be interested?

 

[Danger in Texas]

I’m not sure I really want either of Constable or Fiorini

Would prefer to target potential elite talent through the draft

 

[Mutineer]

Constable is a very handy contested ball and clearance player but he's a handball first type mid who lacks any semblance of breakaway speed even though he tested 3.06 at the combine it's not on show on the playing field.

 

[Sanders]

Disagree strongly.
A player with mental health worries is as significant as a player with injury worries.
Men's mental health is absolutely real and I'd be very confident that neither AFC or Essendon would be prepared to play hard ball if it might result in a negative mental health outcome for a player.

Constable & Francis are just in the yawn, too boring basket

Meh

 

[UcantCme]

How does that explain why we should be interested?

I didn't say we should be interested

Im juat sharing why he is exploring his options

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[Peter Doherty]

No thanks to Fiorini, we need better ball users.

 

[BunjiMac]

Our midfield needs clutch game winners who thrive and execute under pressure. These guys arent cheap in trade or draft currency.

These guys also come with a healthy ego and we've shown that we have no idea how to handle young talented players with ego, in fact we're so scared of them we will do everything we can to avoid bringing this type in.

It's much safer to go for fine young, polite, upstanding, vanilla workhorses every day of the week.

The AFC way.

 

[Sanders]

I didn't say we should be interested

Im juat sharing why he is exploring his options

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Lol. like a player not getting games is some kind of mystery. FFS

 

[DaKids]

Gawd this place has me scratching my head the more I read. So you want to spend valuable draft picks on blokes who haven’t been able to forge a career despite year’s in the system.

But someone suggests the Crows sign a player like Dumont and there’s a riot. Now I’m not saying he’s perfect or very sexy, but he’s played a 100 games and been top 5 B&F last 3 years. And he costs zero. Or Luke Dunstan

27

Luke Dunstan

Age

29

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.7

5star

K

10.1

4star

HB

10.6

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.8

5star

CL

4.4

5star

D

21.0

5star

K

13.0

5star

HB

8.0

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

9.0

5star

CL

2.0

4star

D

18.2

5star

K

6.0

3star

HB

12.2

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

6.2

5star

CL

4.2

5star

is another - free and and actually plays regular league football!

Not saying I think Crows should get either of them just can’t see your logic in wanting to PAY for someone lesser. I should stick to the draft ha ha

 

[Sanders]

Gawd this place has me scratching my head the more I read. So you want to spend valuable draft picks on blokes who haven’t been able to forge a career despite year’s in the system.

But someone suggests the Crows sign a player like Dumont and there’s a riot. Now I’m not saying he’s perfect or very sexy, but he’s played a 100 games and been top 5 B&F last 3 years. And he costs zero. Or Luke Dunstan is another - free and and actually plays regular league football!

Not saying I think Crows should get either of them just can’t see your logic in wanting to PAY for someone lesser. I should stick to the draft ha ha

200%

 

[FNeighbourhoodSpiderman]

No thanks to Fiorini, we need better ball users.

If you go back through Fiorini's draft profiles, majority of them list his ball use and left foot as a strength, or at least above average

His games this season show that he can be incredibly efficient, but also have some inefficient games. His games this season:
- 56% DE (disposal efficiency) from 25 disposals
- 60% DE from 25 disposals
- 75% DE from 32 disposals
- 78% DE from 41 disposals
- 73% DE from 15 disposals

The guy can obviously dispose of the ball correctly in the right role.

Does he hurt the opposition with that ball use? That's a different question.

The guy also tackles, and although his clearance numbers for his career aren't fantastic, he looks capable of being at least an average clearance player.

I'm not saying to recruit him or not, but, if you're a recruiter that thinks there is a clear role you can find for him on your team where his strengths can come into play, there's not many guys you'll find with the proven elite traits he does have at age 23 that have translated into AFL production (and it would be up to recruiters to determine if that production could be used effectively elsewhere or not).

 

[1970crow]

Disagree strongly.
A player with mental health worries is as significant as a player with injury worries.
Men's mental health is absolutely real and I'd be very confident that neither AFC or Essendon would be prepared to play hard ball if it might result in a negative mental health outcome for a player.

Nope, won't impact Essendon's required price at all. And he's not our player, so we shouldn't offer any more than we value him at because of purported mental health issues. Not our problem.

 

[FNeighbourhoodSpiderman]

I’m not sure I really want either of Constable or Fiorini

Would prefer to target potential elite talent through the draft

I’m not sure I really want either of Constable or Fiorini

Would prefer to target potential elite talent through the draft

Yes if I was the Crows list manager I'd:
- Mainly build through the draft, and mainly aim for mids, mid/fwds, at least one elite key forward, small forwards (and general goalkickers), linebreakers, ultra athletes, elite ball users, and essentially guys that are going to win games for you and be very difficult to get anywhere else other than the draft

- Steer away from selecting key position backmen and rucks with high picks. Adequate players at these positions can opportunistically be found with later picks or through trade. I'd refer to guys like Butts and Nick Murray. Aliir Aliir was gettable to everyone last offseason. A player like Jackson Callow (who has positional key position flexibility) was passed on by everyone in last year's draft. Essentially - I'd take a scattergun approach and cycle through guys until you find guys that are at least passable. With modern day schemes like zones, it's also far easier now to play team defence and not necessarily need your individual defenders or non key forward bigs to be the absolute elite of the competition (but, even Melbourne has managed to get by this season without necessarily having elite key forward options like Geelong, Bulldogs, and Brisbane do)

- Opportunistically bring in recycled players who you think can play a specific role for your team that you've struggled to fill, or who you think have more potential than a guy that plays the same position or fill the same role already on your list

- As the team improves, hopefully you get fortunate every few years, and a good SA free agent wants to come back and play in Adelaide

 

[baldandbroke]

Gawd this place has me scratching my head the more I read. So you want to spend valuable draft picks on blokes who haven’t been able to forge a career despite year’s in the system.

But someone suggests the Crows sign a player like Dumont and there’s a riot. Now I’m not saying he’s perfect or very sexy, but he’s played a 100 games and been top 5 B&F last 3 years. And he costs zero. Or Luke Dunstan is another - free and and actually plays regular league football!

Not saying I think Crows should get either of them just can’t see your logic in wanting to PAY for someone lesser. I should stick to the draft ha ha

I'm not sure what people don't like about Dumont? He'd be in our 22 instantly.

 

[Golumless]

I'm not sure what people don't like about Dumont? He'd be in our 22 instantly.

Got to earn that respectable 10th place finish.

 

[WeedsMullet84]

I'm not sure what people don't like about Dumont? He'd be in our 22 instantly.

Go and watch the game from last weekend between the Kangas and Carlton. His highlight reel of clangers should change your mind.

 

[Scorpus]

I'm not sure what people don't like about Dumont? He'd be in our 22 instantly.

He's a bog average player that would clog our list and hinder development of potentially elite players