News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[geelong_crazy26]

Makes it way too hard for bottom teams to rebuild via the draft when you forecast 2-3 drafts ahead what talent will be available and instantly you have to cross off 15-30 kids off your first and second round lists due to academies.... In what world is that not a compromised system?? We may as well go back to zoning systems if academies are flooding the first 2 rounds every year and the AFL wont remove it or make it 40 and up each year.

Clubs like hawthorn north will have a much harder time rebuilding compared to sydney.

 

[.Shotties.]

But NONE of that is a reason to continue giving the Swans a discount on matching academy kids.

No, the lack of talent produced without them, the disadvantage of being unable to build a squad of majority home-state players like teams in Victoria, SA and WA can, and the work required to set up and maintain them are pretty decent arguments thought.

"Incorrect" in the sense I was being too generous to the Swans?
2021 ABS census: greater Sydney has a population of 5.2m

No, as in they don't get access to over half of them, and as I said, saying that the Swans get access to it is the same as saying North gets priority access to a whole traditional football state. It's not entirely accurate.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Someone on the Swans board keeps track of our academy draftees, but the short answer to your original belief that all NSW players get drafted by the Giants or Swans is "They don't".

As opposed to...

clears throat

Perryman
Mills
Himmelberg
Heeney
Hopper
Flynn
Kennedy
Cunningham
Campbell
Gulden
Bell
Buckley
Blakey
Wicks
Steele
Finlayson
Setterfield
Cumming
Green
Naismith
Fahey
Williams
Briggs
Peatling

sucks in comically large breath

I could go on, and I've no doubt missed some obvious ones, but you get the idea.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

What? Your original post says "aren't all NSW kids drafted by GWS or Sydney?" Now you say if an academy player is drafted by another team, it somehow proves a point? All elite talent goes through the academies up here. It's literally the only elite level football they can play.

Anyway, without even thinking too hard players who were drafted from NSW by other teams:

-Charlie Spargo
-Todd Marshall

• Luke Parks
• Ben Davies

Someone on the Swans board keeps track of our academy draftees, but the short answer to your original belief that all NSW players get drafted by the Giants or Swans is "They don't".

Well my point was you basically have universal access to everyone from the state so I dont know how you think you are going to come back to NSW when you have them all. Passing on them if they are in an academy hardly invalidates that point...

I was legit unsure about if you had complete access (hence the, excuse my ignorance) but it seems the only players from NSW dont have access from are from Riverina which is literally closer to Melbourne than Sydney, hardly a Sydney heartland.

• Todd Marshall: Riverina
• Charlie Spargo: Riverina
• Luke Parks: Literally in the Swans academy but you passed on him
• Ben Davies: Literally in the Swans academy

So yes, unless someone else has evidence, you have universal access apart from Riverina area. Of course you arent going to bring many players back when they are all at the club...

 

[Makeshift Park]

No, the lack of talent produced without them, the disadvantage of being unable to build a squad of majority home-state players like teams in Victoria, SA and WA can, and the work required to set up and maintain them are pretty decent arguments thought.

Are Adelaide and Port, for instance, majority SA born and bred players?

Off the top of my head, I doubt it?

 

[.Shotties.]

As opposed to...

clears throat

Perryman
Mills
Himmelberg
Heeney
Hopper
Flynn
Kennedy
Cunningham
Campbell
Gulden
Bell
Buckley
Blakey
Wicks
Steele
Finlayson
Setterfield
Cumming
Green
Naismith
Fahey
Williams
Briggs
Peatling

sucks in comically large breath

I could go on, and I've no doubt missed some obvious ones, but you get the idea.

Sorry, I feel like we're at cross purposes here. What point are you trying to make? My original one was that without the academies, there isn't elite NSW talent being produced or returning back to NSW, which means that it isn't a case if NSW and QLD teams being on even footing with the other states.

In any case, if it came down to it, I'd be fine with nuking it all. No priority picks, no academies of any kind, no father son.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Sorry, I feel like we're at cross purposes here. What point are you trying to make? My original one was that without the academies, there isn't elite NSW talent being produced or returning back to NSW, which means that it isn't a case if NSW and QLD teams being on even footing with the other states.

I was just comparing the amount of NSW talent that enters the AFL via Sydney and GWS versus Spargo and Marshall.

 

[.Shotties.]

Are Adelaide and Port, for instance, majority SA born and bred players?

Off the top of my head, I doubt it?

If they aren't it's a pretty recent phenomenon. I've been having this discussion for years about squad make ups and the closest to the NSW and Queensland teams the last time I had it was Fremantle.

Well my point was you basically have universal access to everyone from the state so I dont know how you think you are going to come back to NSW when you have them all.

Okay, let's widen the parameters then. How many players from NSW, (or the Sydney Metro area, if you want, you keep changing what counts and what doesn't) have returned to play for a NSW team in the last 25 years?

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

If they aren't it's a pretty recent phenomenon. I've been having this discussion for years about squad make ups and the closest to the NSW and Queensland teams the last time I had it was Fremantle.

Okay, let's widen the parameters then. How many players from NSW, (or the Sydney Metro area, if you want, you keep changing what counts and what doesn't) have returned to play for a NSW team in the last 25 years?

Ok, before I go further, is your point that Sydney needs academies because you dont have the "go-home" factor to bring players in from other clubs (like a WA or SA club has)?

 

[.Shotties.]

Ok, before I go further, is your point that Sydney needs academies because you dont have the "go-home" factor to bring players in from other clubs (like a WA or SA has)?

No, my point is that the Swans and Lions aren't on equal footing with other teams in the league in terms of home state talent, either through drafting or having players put in requests to be traded back to their home state.

 

[Makeshift Park]

No, as in they don't get access to over half of them, and as I said, saying that the Swans get access to it is the same as saying North gets priority access to a whole traditional football state. It's not entirely accurate.

Apologies, I meant to follow up on this, but got carried away with the other threads of discussion taking place here.

What exactly did you mean?

 

[JZ_Skitzo]

Sorry Sydney and Brisbane peeps, I just dont think you need assistance anymore, the game is strong enough in your area AND your clubs are strong enough that I dont see any reason you need different rules to WA or SA teams.

If Sydney and Brisbane can't get priority access to their academy kids, what incentive is there for them to fund and run their academies?

As opposed to...

clears throat

Perryman
Mills
Himmelberg
Heeney
Hopper
Flynn
Kennedy
Cunningham
Campbell
Gulden
Bell
Buckley
Blakey
Wicks
Steele
Finlayson
Setterfield
Cumming
Green
Naismith
Fahey
Williams
Briggs
Peatling

sucks in comically large breath

I could go on, and I've no doubt missed some obvious ones, but you get the idea.

Can we please get a list of talent coming from Victoria

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

No, my point is that the Swans and Lions aren't on equal footing with other teams in the league in terms of home state talent.

Ok, on this actual point
A) I'm not sure how pointing out you dont get to trade players back in from NSW from other clubs, when you have them all, proves this point.
B) Historically, I would agree. You havent previously had the same amount of home state talent in the AFL.

My argument against this is the same as from my original post. Your club is now strong enough and football is now popular enough in those areas where the talent production difference is minimal to SA and WA. The Allies literally just won the carnival for the first time and the U16 team (or whatever it is) has like 50% allies players (might have even been more). Footy has grown in QLD and NSW significantly.

There are other advantages you have that make up this talent difference, enough that academy access is way way too much of a boost for a strong club anyway. While the home talent production is currently better, WA and SA team can only bring in home state players unless they are a basically unwanted by the club they play for. I've listed the players (many Vic based) who Brisbane have traded in recently, Sydney got Franklin and possibly Barrass shortly. Players often enjoy playing in non-footy states and unlike us, you guys are close enough to Vic that you arent basically shut off from all Vic talent once the draft goes through.

I've avoided comparing to Vic teams because the advantages powerful Vic clubs have over everyone else is ridiculous. The comparisons that matter are for whether you should get an advantage over WA and SA teams

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

If Sydney and Brisbane can't get priority access to their academy kids, what incentive is there for them to fund and run their academies?

Can we please get a list of talent coming from Victoria

From my original suggestion, you can have access from pick 20 onwards, like everybody else. That's still a worthy benefit and you'll undoubtedly produce more players than everyone elses Academy/NGA because there's no restrictions on who is in there apart from the zone they live in

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Additionally JZ_Skitzo I imagine you'll have a decent chance of bringing them back later if you want given they'll have been in and around the academy (and the football club) for a decent amount of their football life

 

[rye]

people seem to very quickly forget the go home 5 and other first rounders like schache and aish leaving promptly and for far less than drafted value when getting on their soapbox to whinge about brisbane's academy

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

people seem to very quickly forget the go home 5 and other first rounders like schache and aish leaving promptly and for far less than drafted value when getting on their soapbox to whinge about brisbane's academy

Im not sure examples of losing players when a club is a basketcase is particularly relevant? We made finals last year and lost 3 best 22 players, all WA born.

Brisbanes academy also didn’t help them turn it around but if I’m arguing against Sydney’s academy and think the same rules should apply to Brisbane for future parity

 

[.Shotties.]

Ok, on this actual point
A) I'm not sure how pointing out you dont get to trade players back in from NSW from other clubs, when you have them all, proves this point.

Which is why I included time before the academies. Which NSW players, in over 40 years of us being in this city have come here?

There are plenty of players in the league from NSW who don't request to come back.

B) Historically, I would agree. You havent previously had the same amount of home state talent in the AFL.

My argument against this is the same as from my original post. Your club is now strong enough and football is now popular enough in those areas where the talent production difference is minimal to SA and WA.

The Allies literally just won the carnival for the first time and the U16 team (or whatever it is) has like 50% allies players (might have even been more). Footy has grown in QLD and NSW significantly.

Because of the academies. If those get shut down, it's incredibly unlikely this would be maintained.

Whats more, the Allies are from four states. How would they go if it was just NSW or QLD?

There are other advantages you have that make up this talent difference, enough that academy access is way way too much of a boost for a strong club anyway. While the home talent production is currently better, WA and SA team can only bring in home state players unless they are a basically unwanted by the club they play for. I've listed the players (many Vic based) who Brisbane have traded in recently, Sydney got Franklin and possibly Barrass shortly.

Since Franklin, essentially unwanted players is all we've brought in as well. This isn't an advantage for Sydney over those states.

Players often enjoy playing in non-footy states and unlike us, you guys are close enough to Vic that you arent basically shut off from all Vic talent once the draft goes through.

So who's come in for Sydney since Franklin?

 

[KinderSmock]

Just fwiw the poster that said Sanders had been identified and (perhaps) part of the academy at 12 was a Collingwood supporter, KinderSmock who presented to me as having some decent knowledge of that arena. Sanders says we've been in contact with him since 15 (which is not unreasonable, these academies are open and can have up to 100 kids in them so the club would obviously take an interest in draft hopefuls once they've matured more). As for development, what development does any club put into players? We don't really see it. He's definitely trained at the club (there were photos on the North board of him sitting in on team meetings etc at Arden St but if you've seen the North board I'm not going back through the 100 pages over the last fortnight to find them). He's also said we've been there to help when needed, whatever that means. Covid hasn't really been of impact either as when it was at it's peak he was in Tasmania which was pretty much open and has since been in Melbourne to no restrictions.

Take away the prospect North is trying to get an academy player pre-listed (using the initiative of when GC were able to do it with their package a few years ago), for me the mystery is why he isn't in there anyway or what we've had to prove. He's certainly been in the North NGA academy and certainly been involved with the club to x degree. He's certainly indigenous and has played rep footy for indigenous sides. It feels almost like an accounting error somewhere down the line although I since believe this has been sorted and he will be added to our NGA list for access. The rest is up to the AFL because he sure as s**t isn't making it out of the top 40.

Sanders and North have began actively talking at 15 but recruiters were showing up to his underage games well before then. North provided him with an academy (Tasmanian links but I'm not sure what happened to it - I last heard of it pre-COVID), supporting him with what he needed. Ryley spoke about North well before this year. I think the move to Melbourne gets understated. Ryley's school, whilst the better for footy in Tasmania, is not elite by any stretch and moving to boarding school is a change for anyone.

I generally only know this as I've got links to Ryley through friends. His heritage has never been of question and I doubt Melbourne Grammar would have given him a scholarship if he wasn't nor would he have been allowed to perform in traditional dances at the MCG both this year and last.

I've found the article that proves he was part of North's Academy: Roos name regional squads. It's paywalled but his name is listed. I don't subscribe so can't copy and paste but he is mentioned there.

If anyone else has Ryley questions or queries about Tasmanian draft prospect, more than happy to answer.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Okay everyone looking at this thread from Qld and NSW, I have a question:

I assume everyone agrees that the northern academy system and the advantages for the clubs involved are only justifiable for a finite period of time.

1) At what point do we say the Swans, Lions, Giants and Suns have to draft in an open market, where there are no matched bids, no discounts? Can you point to a figure, or an achievement?

2) Do you think there's a compelling argument that the Swans and Lions should lose these advantages before GWS and GC? Why?

3) In the meantime, is there any justification for the 20% discount on matched bids, aside from how its also a feature of F/S nominations? Could you get behind removing the discount across the board?

 

[The Filth Wizard]

Sanders and North have began actively talking at 15 but recruiters were showing up to his underage games well before then. North provided him with an academy (Tasmanian links but I'm not sure what happened to it - I last heard of it pre-COVID), supporting him with what he needed. Ryley spoke about North well before this year. I think the move to Melbourne gets understated. Ryley's school, whilst the better for footy in Tasmania, is not elite by any stretch and moving to boarding school is a change for anyone.

I generally only know this as I've got links to Ryley through friends. His heritage has never been of question and I doubt Melbourne Grammar would have given him a scholarship if he wasn't nor would he have been allowed to perform in traditional dances at the MCG both this year and last.

I've found the article that proves he was part of North's Academy: Roos name regional squads. It's paywalled but he's there. I don't subscribe so can't copy and paste but he is mentioned there.

If anyone else has Ryley questions or queries about Tasmanian draft prospect, more than happy to answer.

This is spectacular mate, thank you.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Which is why I included time before the academies. Which NSW players, in over 40 years of us being in this city have come here?

In this discussion, nothing is relevant since expansion teams, the game has grown in your states. How is a time before academies relevant or do you think AFL has the level of influence in QLD/NSW now as it did 20 years ago?

There are plenty of players in the league from NSW who don't request to come back.

There really isnt, we literally just proved this and the reason there isnt is you basically have them all

Because of the academies. If those get shut down, it's incredibly unlikely this would be maintained.

I never said shut them down, I said make them the same as others, locked out of top 20. You'd still get a significant benefit running those academies and you'd have more players in there then other clubs by way of having access to everyone from the state

Whats more, the Allies are from four states. How would they go if it was just NSW or QLD?

They'd go worse, it's not the same level yet but clearly it's reaching a pretty strong point. Whats more, it's not like every single player from WA comes back to WA, hardly any of them do once drafted interstate but they are the only ones we can bring back in. I believe Taylor has proved up that more WA players trade to a non-WA club then trade back home.

Since Franklin, essentially unwanted players is all we've brought in as well. This isn't an advantage for Sydney over those states.

So who's come in for Sydney since Franklin?

Your right, you havent brough in much but something tells me the largest AFL deal ever might have had something to do with that. Seems now it's gone, Sydney is back in the trading game given the cash supposedly being splashed about

 

[RonnieRaven]

Okay everyone looking at this thread from Qld and NSW, I have a question:

I assume everyone agrees that the northern academy system and the advantages for the clubs involved are only justifiable for a finite period of time.

1) At what point do we say the Swans, Lions, Giants and Suns have to draft in an open market, where there are no matched bids, no discounts? Can you point to a figure, or an achievement?

2) Do you think there's a compelling argument that the Swans and Lions should lose these advantages before GWS and GC? Why?

3) In the meantime, is there any justification for the 20% discount on matched bids, aside from how its also a feature of F/S nominations? Could you get behind removing the discount across the board?

I don’t mind suns and giants getting a leg up but lions with 3 flags and swans with 2 since 2000 is a joke.
Why should freo with die hard fans and no flags get donuts compared to the other two.
I’ll tell you why AFL is a business.
Business these days roll out the red carpet make them fill special for new and fair weather customers.
Long-standing loyal customers are not important because it doesn’t matter if the product is good or bad we are always there!
Freo has wa players leave because they hate the fishbowl, 10hrs in transit every second week and post career opportunities are only available if you become a club great!

 

[.Shotties.]

In this discussion, nothing is relevant since expansion teams, the game has grown in your states. How is a time before academies relevant or do you think AFL has the level of influence in QLD/NSW now as it did 20 years ago?

Because it shows the value of the academies and what happens if that elite talent pathway isn't in place.

There really isnt, we literally just proved this and the reason there isnt is you basically have them all

NSW PLAYERS ON AFL LISTS IN 2023 – NSW Australian Football History Society Inc

They'd go worse, it's not the same level yet but clearly it's reaching a pretty strong point.

Because four states combined for the first time in their history won the champs? Pretty weak evidence.

Your right, you havent brough in much but something tells me the largest AFL deal ever might have had something to do with that. Seems now it's gone, Sydney is back in the trading game given the cash supposedly being splashed about

It's...not? It was less per year than Hawthorns original offer, and has been exceeded by other contracts over its duration.

 

[briztoon]

Your club has priority access to more than half the kids in a metropolis of five million.

Your club has been in six grand finals in the past two decades, during which time you’ve won two premierships.

There isn’t a team that exemplifies the distortion of the draft better than the Swans.

And 95% of those kids play a sport other than AFL.

While Sydney has “access” to so many kids, it’s really a myth, because most aren’t interested in AFL.

If AFL was the number one sport in NSW, they would be producing more kids than Victoria (who produces 60% of each year’s draft crop).

Fact is, Sydney’s academy has produced 4 first round draftees in the last decade. I can’t even think of any later round draftees apart from Gulden.


Really fail to see how Sydney and its academy exemplifies the distortion of the draft. Particularly in regards to the first of the two decades you referred to.