News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[Elixuh]

GWS didn't try to make finals for their first few years.

There are 3 teams who recently had a stint at the top, fell and then had a really quick bounce. Collingwood, Sydney and GWS - draft concession players have played a big role in all 3. Draft concessions can break the boom bust cycle that is the likely impact of the draft for most clubs.

Collingwood went up the ladder because you changed your entire coaching staff and now have the most loaded coaching group in the league by a country mile, replacing an underperforming coaching group.

Sydney has had a strong list rounded out by several low pick academy players. But how many have they had over 13 years? Compare that to Brisbane who has had Eric Hipwood at pick 14 in 2015. We haven't had a top 10 academy pick, ever. It is just luck. But otherwise the academies are slowly performing as intended.

Have you seen GWS' academy picks over the last 12 years? I think there is maybe 2 in the top 10. In 12 years.

VFL club supporters in this thread giving the academies a lot of credit.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

I see your Sydney argument and raise you a GCS who has never played in finals; Lions who were horrendous from 2010-2018; GWS has made finals 6 times in 12 seasons. It is almost like you're overstating the scary northern academies!

I think the real strength in your argument is raising the last 20 years, which was long before Sydney had an academy

The problem is, even though your argument is incoherent and wrong, people like you are who the AFL seems to be listening to lol.

Scary academies have netted us exactly 2 flags since 1933.

Gold Coast haven't even played in a final.

Its been a decade of Hawthorn and Richmond domination.

I cant fathom the outrage heaven forbid a expansion club like GCS pinches a flag in the next 5 years.

 

[Membling]

Heeney - pick 17 became pick 2.
Mills - what pick(s) became pick 3?
Break it down and what did Blakey cost you?

Heeney - old rules, matched at out next pick in the round which was 17.

Mills -Bid on pick 3 cost 33, 36, 37, 43 - originally had pick 14 and Craig Bird was traded for 23 and 44. 23 was traded for 36 and 37

Blakey - Bid on pick 10 cost 34, 39, 40 - original had pick 13, traded out for 26, 28 and 40. Pick 28 for 39 and future second.

Both times had to split our first. Could have easily matched Blakey with original pick. Mills was more of a stretch and I will admit that.

Also tack on the financial cost of academies at $1m a year for the club.

 

[adammania9]

I am not having a sook. I like the F/S system. I like Josh Daicos too, think he is a terrific player.

But saying he is not a F/S pick is absolutely braindead, you are the only person that seems to hold this position. Even the Collingwood website lists him a F/S pick:

View attachment 1863582

Just take the L already.

I’m not saying you’re a sook. I’m saying that if Josh Daicos was not a F/S option, he’d still have ended up at Collingwood regardless. The tag on the website means nothing.

 

[Caligo]

Also tack on the financial cost of academies at $1m a year for the clclub.

There is no financial cost. Sydney are and always have been massively over funded by the AFL. They have been nigh on insolvent and bailed out more than once.

Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast and others pay for the Sydney academy.

 

[Elixuh]

There is no financial cost. Sydney are and always have been massively over funded by the AFL. They have been nigh on insolvent and bailed out more than once.

Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast and others pay for the Sydney academy.

Sydney is middle of the pack in funding. Much closer in funding to the mighty hawks than those receiving the highest funding amounts.

 

[TheBoss]

I’m not saying you’re a sook. I’m saying that if Josh Daicos was not a F/S option, he’d still have ended up at Collingwood regardless. The tag on the website means nothing.

Your contention that he would end up at Collingwood regardless cannot be proven.

He nominated Collingwood and was never in the open draft pool. He would have been wiped off most clubs draft board for being unobtainable unless they did something stupid like reaching for him the first round.

Saying that he "is not a F/S pick because no club bid on him" is utterly ******ed; there is little incentive for other clubs to make bids beyond the second round because it does not give any club an edge. Matching a bid after pick 40 is pretty trivial.

It is no different to Errol Gulden being an academy selection notwithstanding that no one bidded on him.

To also say that the F/S tag on his draft profile does not matter just highlights how stubborn you are. If a player nominates and lands at their chosen club they are a F/S regardless of the circumstances; it is in the rules.

Just take the L. Cope and seethe.

 

[Caligo]

Sydney is middle of the pack in funding. Much closer in funding to the mighty hawks than those receiving the highest funding amounts.

Over the last 20 years? They are absolutely nowhere near the middle. How about over the last 40?

In real terms, over the last half century no club has been funded like Sydney.

 

[mpal6]

I'm not talking about the years prior, I'm talking about the last few years. You've had 3 elite youngsters for free. You would've known 3 years ago that you had multiple midfielders come in, so that helps your list strategy. Massively kissed and a massive asterisk on future results.

wow 3 years ago ? why not extrapolate and say we knew it from the moment they dropped out of their mother's womb? You have a weird obsession of painting your view on a topic and then persisting with it as the only ever rolled gold fact and nothing else matters.

Fletcher at the beginning of draft year was tracking 2nd or 3rd rounder. His dad took upon the academy or development role and moulded him to what he became in the end. There is enough evidence in our academy thread to point out how much development work he did with his dad to actually reach that first rounder status.

Ashcroft was always on a will-he, wont-he cycle before he finally committed to coming over as a father-son prospect. I'm not going to re-hash all news articles and his decision making out there, its a waste of time with you anyway. There was no certainty whatsoever of him landing at Lions. Will Ashcroft was at Suns academy up until he was 13 years old until Marcus left Suns in 2017. If it wasn't for his dad leaving, AFL would've made sure Will lands at GC as academy player.

But yeah, go on and keep parroting about how we always knew, always planned, always had all this cunning roadmap to build this list around bunch of teenagers 3-4-5 years out. Go figure !

 

[go_the_dockers]

In 82 pages, no one has said the SA and WA clubs have got the better deal. I wonder why?

 

[Membling]

There is no financial cost. Sydney are and always have been massively over funded by the AFL. They have been nigh on insolvent and bailed out more than once.

Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast and others pay for the Sydney academy.

Every club has been given financial assistance from the AFL but the Swans Acadmey has never been funded by the AFL.

Hawthorn paying for the Academy? Short, short memories about the respective financial positions of clubs and those timelines.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Would like to see the AFL penalise teams for behind the scenes deals on when to make bids. North not bidding on Walter with pick for example, or even worse GWS not bidding on Nick Daicos at all.

 

[Obeanie1]

In the grand final we had 3 players from our academy play, in a squad that had players drafted from 2011 onwards. I think you’re giving the academies a bit too much credit old boy.

Academies aren’t just an equalisation mechanism. It is principally a strategy to grow the game and increase talent for the league, which is especially important if you want to continue adding teams.

Not your boy for starts.

Now lets just stop the BS about the AFL allowing ridiculous access for any side to simply 'grow the game' in expansion states.

Thats just total BS and weasel words to hide the real purpose. The AFL want TV rights $$$ to grow in northern markets and that dirrectly results in AFL executive bonuses increasing.

The way to grow the game is to get northern clubs playing finals and winning flags. That is NOT reliant on how many Qlders or NSW players play in the team. So the Lions and Swans are there. Right now. They are consistently playing finals and now in grand finals.

Both clubs are attracting quality trades on Victorian players. So no need to equalise that disadvantabe.

The Lions are picking up quality 1st round father sons. So no need to continue equalising that so called disadvantage. In fact the Lions ans Swans are tied to Fitzroy and South Melbourne for father sons, much more access than the Suns and GWS.

So the reality is the two oldest established northern clubs in the Lions and Swans are decades ahead of the Suns and GWS but are getting exactly the same priority access. And they no longer need it.

Its a really simple concept. When do northern clubs have the prioritt access dialed back because they no longer need it to be competitive and contend?

And if this doesnt occur why not? Because growing the game alone simply is an acceptable reason to hand four clubs such as massive advantagee over others.

Thats the point. How many grand finals does a northern club need to play in before its obvious their lists dont need prioiry access to players?

AFL can fix this by stopping the discounts and double dipping by trading quality picks and paying with rubbish picks in the 40's.

 

[WilloTree]

Why do people seem to think that the draft is some incredibly pure instrument that should not have its influence adulterated in any way shape or form?

Ross Oakley and Wayne Jackson were both very clear on this.

When Oakley took over as CEO the league desperately needed to move to a Draft/Salary Cap model and away from the mess it was in btn 83-86 Financially, the VFL was in its last throws:

"The league was destitute. More than half the clubs were technically bankrupt." Oakley May 25, 2009

Jackson further emphasized the importance of the draft being "understood by all":

"The salary cap and the draft are fundamental planks of the policies of the AFL which are understood by all and work for the common good." - Wayne Jackson March 8, 2003

Diluting the draft, or manipulating the Salary Cap interferes with the two pillars that are here to protect the entire competition. In fact, without them, there simply wouldn't be a National Competition and the state based competitions would be run on shoe-string budgets similar to what they are now. Even in this case, half the VFL teams would still not have been able to continue in the highest level state based competition (the VFL)

So - take your pick

- Draft and Salary Cap
OR
- State based competition where "more than half the clubs" are broke

 

[adammania9]

Your contention that he would end up at Collingwood regardless cannot be proven.

He nominated Collingwood and was never in the open draft pool. He would have been wiped off most clubs draft board for being unobtainable unless they did something stupid like reaching for him the first round.

Saying that he "is not a F/S pick because no club bid on him" is utterly ******ed; there is little incentive for other clubs to make bids beyond the second round because it does not give any club an edge. Matching a bid after pick 40 is pretty trivial.

It is no different to Errol Gulden being an academy selection notwithstanding that no one bidded on him.

To also say that the F/S tag on his draft profile does not matter just highlights how stubborn you are. If a player nominates and lands at their chosen club they are a F/S regardless of the circumstances; it is in the rules.

Just take the L. Cope and seethe.

Don’t cry. And don’t use the word ******ed. Says a lot about you, champ. Grow up

No club bid on Daicos therefore he would have ended up a Magpie. That is a fact. Your contention that clubs didn’t bother is more unproven.

 

[Caligo]

Every club has been given financial assistance from the AFL but the Swans Acadmey has never been funded by the AFL.

Hawthorn paying for the Academy? Short, short memories about the respective financial positions of clubs and those timelines.

Not short memories at all. When Hawthorn was in trouble the AFL said we needed to rescue ourselves or go under like Fitzroy did. When the Swans were in trouble they were bailed out. And not just financially. Priority picks were invented specifically to prop up Sydney. Star players were brought to the club on direct AFL cash to prop them up too. There has been no end of Sydney support, and that is a good thing. We need to build the game in the North. But don't go claiming you paid for it.

Couldn't be more different.

 

[sr36]

Your contention that he would end up at Collingwood regardless cannot be proven.

He nominated Collingwood and was never in the open draft pool. He would have been wiped off most clubs draft board for being unobtainable unless they did something stupid like reaching for him the first round.

Saying that he "is not a F/S pick because no club bid on him" is utterly ******ed; there is little incentive for other clubs to make bids beyond the second round because it does not give any club an edge. Matching a bid after pick 40 is pretty trivial.

It is no different to Errol Gulden being an academy selection notwithstanding that no one bidded on him.

To also say that the F/S tag on his draft profile does not matter just highlights how stubborn you are. If a player nominates and lands at their chosen club they are a F/S regardless of the circumstances; it is in the rules.

Just take the L. Cope and seethe.

Geelong bid on Gulden. So it's significantly different.

 

[Membling]

Not short memories at all. When Hawthorn was in trouble the AFL said we needed to rescue ourselves or go under like Fitzroy did. When the Swans were in trouble they were bailed out. And not just financially. Priority picks were invented specifically to prop up Sydney. Star players were brought to the club on direct AFL cash to prop them up too. There has been no end of Sydney support, and that is a good thing. We need to build the game in the North. But don't go claiming you paid for it.

Couldn't be more different.

Ah yes the 1990s when the Academy didn't exist and the AFL put South up there to die.

Very relevant to the discussion on academies.

The AFL has not paid for the Academies. You trying to move the goal post does not change that fact.

Also....

Victorian clubs handed AFL funding for academies

And where the fubding for the Swans academy comes from

The Swans’ secret sauce: youth developed through its academy

 

[Maybe Tomorrow]

Would like to see the AFL penalise teams for behind the scenes deals on when to make bids. North not bidding on Walter with pick for example, or even worse GWS not bidding on Nick Daicos at all.

Agree with you, but it's very hard to prove.

North would just say "we rated Mckercher above Walter". Probably not true, but it might be.

 

[sydney_gws]

Does anybody know what conclusions this meeting reached, or won't it be announced until approved by AFL commission.
Or is it going to drag on and on, become its own saga like a WWE show.

 

[Elixuh]

Not your boy for starts.

Now lets just stop the BS about the AFL allowing ridiculous access for any side to simply 'grow the game' in expansion states.

Thats just total BS and weasel words to hide the real purpose. The AFL want TV rights $$$ to grow in northern markets and that dirrectly results in AFL executive bonuses increasing.

The way to grow the game is to get northern clubs playing finals and winning flags. That is NOT reliant on how many Qlders or NSW players play in the team. So the Lions and Swans are there. Right now. They are consistently playing finals and now in grand finals.

Both clubs are attracting quality trades on Victorian players. So no need to equalise that disadvantabe.

The Lions are picking up quality 1st round father sons. So no need to continue equalising that so called disadvantage. In fact the Lions ans Swans are tied to Fitzroy and South Melbourne for father sons, much more access than the Suns and GWS.

So the reality is the two oldest established northern clubs in the Lions and Swans are decades ahead of the Suns and GWS but are getting exactly the same priority access. And they no longer need it.

Its a really simple concept. When do northern clubs have the prioritt access dialed back because they no longer need it to be competitive and contend?

And if this doesnt occur why not? Because growing the game alone simply is an acceptable reason to hand four clubs such as massive advantagee over others.

Thats the point. How many grand finals does a northern club need to play in before its obvious their lists dont need prioiry access to players?

AFL can fix this by stopping the discounts and double dipping by trading quality picks and paying with rubbish picks in the 40's.

Why don’t you want to grow the game? Do you really think the lions are in the position we are currently in through rorting academies? We’ve never had a top 10 academy pick.

 

[marcmurphy3]

Love the competitive balance review. You can't look at the academy system in isolation. It's great to know the powers at afl house understand that. Every club has its own advantages and disadvantages that must all be weighed up. Trying to make every little thing equal is a great way to make the competition completely unequal.

Also suggests the academy system won't be stripped back much although I expect clubs to pay closer to fair value. The AFL already knows what clubs think and this feedback gathering process is just formalising it. Going broader and looking at completive balance rather then just the bidding system will make it much easier for them to justify leaving the academy system in tact.

 

[Jirik13]

It looks like Sam Edmund gets it Every time I go to Suns home and see majority fans being opposition fans I am just shaking my head. A Suns player taking a set shot and crowd is booing. Talk about home crowd advantage.

And the moment the Suns, who have never played finals, have been a basket case, just sacked yet another coach, and had an Academy that has far from set the world on fire, land four kids in one draft…the world closes in. The Suns sell two games to Darwin for heaven’s sake.

They play a home game against Collingwood and 18,000 of the 22,000 there are Pies fans.

Clubs like GWS and Gold Coast don’t have father-sons and don’t have big crowds and have to travel 13 times.

AFL embarking on 'competitive balance review' as club angst rises across the league

The AFL has told its clubs that it is embarking on what it’s calling A Competitive Balance Review.

www.sen.com.au

 

[Maybe Tomorrow]

Love the competitive balance review. You can't look at the academy system in isolation. It's great to know the powers at afl house understand that. Every club has its own advantages and disadvantages that must all be weighed up. Trying to make every little thing equal is a great way to make the competition completely unequal.

Also suggests the academy system won't be stripped back much although I expect clubs to pay closer to fair value. The AFL already knows what clubs think and this feedback gathering process is just formalising it. Going broader and looking at completive balance rather then just the bidding system will make it much easier for them to justify leaving the academy system in tact.

When you think about it, getting stressed about 4 first round picks is a bit mad. It doesn't actually mean anything, other than people think they have potential.

Jed Walter hasn't kicked one goal in the AFL yet. None of them have done anything, yet. And there is no guarantee they will. But apparently it's the end of the world.

I don't see a problem with increasing the cost of matching academy and FS players. But folk acting like the Suns academy producing good players is a bad thing have their club bias blinkers on. If these guys are the guns some fear, then the Suns will make finals and lots of academy players will make it to the open pool, so win win.

 

[rye]

Without doubt, the Northern Academies are an advantage. That’s exactly why they were set up. To give an advantage to those clubs who don’t have any other advantages.