News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[Sonny Hayes]

It looks like Sam Edmund gets it Every I go to Suns home and see majority fans being opposition fans I am just shaking my head. A Suns player taking a set shot and crowd is booing. Talk about home crowd advantage.

AFL embarking on 'competitive balance review' as club angst rises across the league

The AFL has told its clubs that it is embarking on what it’s calling A Competitive Balance Review.

www.sen.com.au

I’m not sure of his point?

Because they have been poorly run it’s okay they get a massive leg up? It doesn’t stop the cost from being absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

When you think about it, getting stressed about 4 first round picks is a bit mad. It doesn't actually mean anything, other than people think they have potential.

Jed Walter hasn't kicked one goal in the AFL yet. None of them have done anything, yet. And there is no guarantee they will. But apparently it's the end of the world.

I don't see a problem with increasing the cost of matching academy and FS players. But folk acting like the Suns academy producing good players is a bad thing have their club bias blinkers on. If these guys are the guns some fear, then the Suns will make finals and lots of academy players will make it to the open pool, so win win.

I dare say you may also be looking this through the eyes of a Suns supporter.

It’s a win win for rebuilding clubs watching the Suns get a massive leg up? It’s a competition, having a direct rival getting a ton of talent in is going to be a concern for clubs, it isn’t overly reassuring being told. Hey well maybe there will be a little bit of a talent spill over and you can get some of those crumbs.

 

[Jirik13]

I’m not sure of his point?

Because they have been poorly run it’s okay they get a massive leg up? It doesn’t stop the cost from being absolutely ridiculous.

More like Suns were badly set up by AFL. In the end AFL owns Suns and essentially runs the club. To start the expansion club in NRL territory 8 years in metal sheds and with coach and admin who never worked in those roles before tells you all you need to know.

 

[Jirik13]

When you think about it, getting stressed about 4 first round picks is a bit mad. It doesn't actually mean anything, other than people think they have potential.

Jed Walter hasn't kicked one goal in the AFL yet. None of them have done anything, yet. And there is no guarantee they will. But apparently it's the end of the world.

I don't see a problem with increasing the cost of matching academy and FS players. But folk acting like the Suns academy producing good players is a bad thing have their club bias blinkers on. If these guys are the guns some fear, then the Suns will make finals and lots of academy players will make it to the open pool, so win win.

Yeah, Vics fans go a bit nuts here. It will take 3-5 years for draftees to develop and quite possibly some will not deliver on potential. And if Suns do play finals matching bids in round 1 is severely limited.

Obviously, AFL wants Suns to prosper. Right now, they are far from established and successful club. When Suns play finals regularly, sure support can be wind it down.

I still remember when Suns got Ainsworth, Brodie, Bowes, Scrimshaw with all that excitement. Now only Ainsworth really starting to deliver.

 

[ohmygewd]

In 82 pages, no one has said the SA and WA clubs have got the better deal. I wonder why?

I'm interested in the state of junior competitions in both WA and SA - are your Colts systems simliar to the Vic TAC/NAB/Coates, schoolboy leagues and are the AFL teams frustrated at junior development level in these states?
It's extremely rare that a Vic kid gets drafted from local comp and i don't think VFL/VFA clubs have junior teams anymore.

In terms of concessions, well the AFL consider WA and SA football states so there's no need for academies, NGA rules are in line with everyone else and WA and SA teams are old enough to have FS as well a Brissie and Sydney.

 

[Obeanie1]

Why don’t you want to grow the game? Do you really think the lions are in the position we are currently in through rorting academies? We’ve never had a top 10 academy pick.

Academies has very little to do with growing the game. Success grows the game in non football states.

And the Lions and Swans are peaking now.

So why do these two teams get exactly the same priority access as the Suns and GWS?

And the teams foundering in the bottom 3 get little or no priority access. And in fact have teams playing finals taking their academy kids with access restricted over pick 40?

BTW your comment saying the Lions haven't had a top 10 academy pick just confirms they don't need it. They will land another top 3 father son next year. Just imagine if they also had unlimited access to a top 5 academy kid as well? THAT would show just how ridiculous the current system is.

 

[Obeanie1]

What disadvantages are the academies trying to equalise?

Lack of father sons? Lions doing very well there.

Losing players to interstate clubs?

Swans and Lions have traded in some serious A grade Victorians recently. Daniher, Dunckley, Hodge, Adams, Grundy,........plus a number of role players.

The Northern states have evolved into destination clubs for players to avoid the scrutiny of Melbourne and don't have huge travel loads like the WA clubs.

These arguments for the academies are out of date and no longer valid.

Easiest way to look at the priority access and discounts is how much success is needed before the advantages are cut?

 

[Jirik13]

Academies has very little to do with growing the game. Success grows the game in non football states.

Sure, success helps a great deal. But to say that academies has very little to do with growing game is not objective view, IMO.

You should check out regularly what Suns and its academy actually do in communities. Suns now runs thousands kids through academy from if I remember correctly 11-12 years old, organizing camps, recruitments events all over the place, organizing coaches clinics, setting up additional staff in the regions, organizing training, visits, etc.

Always was wondering what clubs actually do withing NGA academies.

 

[Obeanie1]

I'm interested in the state of junior competitions in both WA and SA - are your Colts systems simliar to the Vic TAC/NAB/Coates, schoolboy leagues and are the AFL teams frustrated at junior development level in these states?
It's extremely rare that a Vic kid gets drafted from local comp and i don't think VFL/VFA clubs have junior teams anymore.

In terms of concessions, well the AFL consider WA and SA football states so there's no need for academies, NGA rules are in line with everyone else and WA and SA teams are old enough to have FS as well a Brissie and Sydney.

What father son advantage have the Eagles and Freo landed?

Eagles. Cousins..............Waterman.

Freo. ?

What gun Victorian players have agreed to move to WA compared to Qld and NSW? None. Zero.

So on those two counts the Qld and NSW clubs have a massive advantage over the two WA clubs. Even BEFORE getting additional priority academy access PLUS discounts.

 

[rye]

What disadvantages are the academies trying to equalise?
many
Lack of father sons? Lions doing very well there.
are the lions the only club with a northern academy? fletcher was academy eligible anyway, so we've effectively had 1 father son since jonathan brown
Losing players to interstate clubs?
members of the go home 5 are still actively playing for other clubs let alone other draftees brisbane has lost over the journey, gws lost a b&f winner + aa squad level mid in 2022, gold coast have bled talent across most of their existence and the current adelaide captain left for significant unders from sydney. if you want a more general rebuttal to this, see the comments the GWS list manager made in the 2022 draft year about how different draft boards look for northern clubs and as to why they traded up so hard to land cadman rather than face the likely prospect of the other high level talents getting homesick and requesting a trade back home after their rookie contract. these clubs have to adopt a completely different draft strategy to other clubs to avoid retention issues
Swans and Lions have traded in some serious A grade Victorians recently. Daniher, Dunckley, Hodge, Adams, Grundy,........plus a number of role players.
no rebuttal here, but think on this - sydney and brisbane have to actively work to be attractive places for players to want to go to. clubs in football states are attractive for players seeking to return to their home state purely by the virtue of their location. do you think adelaide attracts dawson or rankine if the club is located anywhere else?
The Northern states have evolved into destination clubs for players to avoid the scrutiny of Melbourne and don't have huge travel loads like the WA clubs.
gold coast has never been a destination club, neither gws. brisbane for most of its existence has struggled to attract trade / free agent targets.
These arguments for the academies are out of date and no longer valid.
maybe these arent the actual arguments as to why the academies are meant to exist?
Easiest way to look at the priority access and discounts is how much success is needed before the advantages are cut?

 

[Sonny Hayes]

More like Suns were badly set up by AFL. In the end AFL owns Suns and essentially runs the club. To start the expansion club in NRL territory 8 years in metal sheds and with coach and admin who never worked in those roles before tells you all you need to know.

They did, but 2016 was supposed to be the turning point, then it was supposed to be the Rowell/Anderson draft.

They had a rough start but they are not free of blame over the past half decade.

 

[Jirik13]

They did, but 2016 was supposed to be the turning point, then it was supposed to be the Rowell/Anderson draft.

They had a rough start but they are not free of blame over the past half decade.

Nobody said Suns are free of blame. But let's not forget that all major decisions are approved by AFL. If you look at the Lions, they only came up from 10 years of misery after AFL put in Fagan, Swann and Noble.

I don't think too many mistakes were made since Dew came in. You could in hindsight argue that Dew appointment was a mistake, but a lot of things improved under him. Except Rankine all players committed, apparently good culture, good place to work, players work hard. For some reason the team could not take a next step under Dew.

Suns look to me like a proper club now. Let's see how they go under Dimma. The list is approaching a good age and experience profile. Players like Anderson, Rowell, King, Lukosius are just entering a delivery time (all still under 100 games).

But the success is needed and fast. Or in 2-3 years we could talk about another re-build.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Nobody said Suns are free of blame. But let's not forget that all major decisions are approved by AFL. If you look at the Lions, they only came up from 10 years of misery after AFL put in Fagan, Swann and Noble.

I don't think too many mistakes were made since Dew came in. You could in hindsight argue that Dew appointment was a mistake, but a lot of things improved under him. Except Rankine all players committed, apparently good culture, good place to work, players work hard. For some reason the team could not take a next step under Dew.

Suns look to me like a proper club now. Let's see how they go under Dimma. The list is approaching a good age and experience profile. Players like Anderson, Rowell, King, Lukosius are just entering a delivery time (all still under 100 games).

But the success is needed and fast. Or in 2-3 years we could talk about another re-build.

I agree with most of this, but none of it goes against my original point. In the article he is essentially saying because the Suns have sucked it’s okay they got the big leg up, I am saying no it’s not and it is why people are commenting on it.

You are right they have the systems in place, they have a good young core, they have an experienced head coach. So why would other clubs and supporters be happy to see them adding a huge haul for a ridiculously low price.

 

[Elixuh]

Academies has very little to do with growing the game. Success grows the game in non football states.

And the Lions and Swans are peaking now.

So why do these two teams get exactly the same priority access as the Suns and GWS?

And the teams foundering in the bottom 3 get little or no priority access. And in fact have teams playing finals taking their academy kids with access restricted over pick 40?

BTW your comment saying the Lions haven't had a top 10 academy pick just confirms they don't need it. They will land another top 3 father son next year. Just imagine if they also had unlimited access to a top 5 academy kid as well? THAT would show just how ridiculous the current system is.

We are just growing the game.

If we want to keep adding teams then we need to keep growing the talent pool. Otherwise it’s how you get guys like Tim Kelly becoming top paid players in the league.

 

[Jirik13]

I agree with most of this, but none of it goes against my original point. In the article he is essentially saying because the Suns have sucked it’s okay they got the big leg up, I am saying no it’s not and it is why people are commenting on it.

You are right they have the systems in place, they have a good young core, they have an experienced head coach. So why would other clubs and supporters be happy to see them adding a huge haul for a ridiculously low price.

Fair point. Personally, I would make some changes to draft system and it looks like AFL will do.

But until Suns are actually successful, I would chill out. Suns need to be successful for expansion to non-AFL territories to work.

As I said already, if Suns were successful let's say like Lions they would be able to match only one bid. So there is a pretty impactful rule already in place. But for sure, I would remove discount, possibly change picks points table values and couple of other things.

It was pretty obvious clubs exploited NGA hence the rule no access to players in 2 first rounds was introduced. But I suspect AFL will revert back to no access 1st round only.

 

[ohmygewd]

What father son advantage have the Eagles and Freo landed?

Eagles. Cousins..............Waterman.

Freo. ?

What gun Victorian players have agreed to move to WA compared to Qld and NSW? None. Zero.

So on those two counts the Qld and NSW clubs have a massive advantage over the two WA clubs. Even BEFORE getting additional priority academy access PLUS discounts.

Hey hey, l was only asking about the state of elite junior development in WA and SA.

In terms of FS, you do have the same advantage as all clubs in having access to FS but it's not the AFL's fault if the father doesn't produce son's that go onto play football or if the club foregoes the chance to pick up a FS eligible player if they deemed that player not worth a pick or the father played 99 games.

And before you go on, l do agree that raising the threshold from 50 to100 games is utterly crap but l don't think we can go back to pre 1997 rules where a FS could bypass the draft like Cousins or after 1997 when 2nd and 3rd rounders were needed or pre 2006 where 150 WAFL or 200 SANFL got you under FS.

Back to the topic...

 

[go_the_dockers]

Hey hey, l was only asking about the state of elite junior development in WA and SA.

In terms of FS, you do have the same advantage as all clubs in having access to FS but it's not the AFL's fault if the father doesn't produce son's that go onto play football or if the club foregoes the chance to pick up a FS eligible player if they deemed that player not worth a pick or the father played 99 games.

And before you go on, l do agree that raising the threshold from 50 to100 games is utterly crap but l don't think we can go back to pre 1997 rules where a FS could bypass the draft like Cousins or after 1997 when 2nd and 3rd rounders were needed or pre 2006 where 150 WAFL or 200 SANFL got you under FS.

Back to the topic...

SA and WA clubs did not get the same advantage over the last 10 years. It has massively favoured the vic clubs.

I think something like 80% of father son, have been for Victorian clubs and Russell Ebert's kids were not eligible.

When you add all the marquee time slots that only vic clubs get, a home grand final, it is no wonder the vic's are dominating.

 

[Dogflogger]

Inside the father-son rule: How genetics have changed the AFL draft this article is a bit dated now but its a decent look at father son and what value it has brought teams, also let me know if you spot the top tier troll on any St kilda fans reading it lol.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Fair point. Personally, I would make some changes to draft system and it looks like AFL will do.

But until Suns are actually successful, I would chill out. Suns need to be successful for expansion to non-AFL territories to work.

As I said already, if Suns were successful let's say like Lions they would be able to match only one bid. So there is a pretty impactful rule already in place. But for sure, I would remove discount, possibly change picks points table values and couple of other things.

It was pretty obvious clubs exploited NGA hence the rule no access to players in 2 first rounds was introduced. But I suspect AFL will revert back to no access 1st round only.

See I don’t blame the Suns at all, they did nothing wrong. Just used the system as it’s currently designed. I would also like to see a successful Suns. I would like to feel like it wasn’t simply because the AFL refused to allow it to fail though.

Between the assistance package, the haul this year and the potential for some considerable talent incoming over the coming few years you can’t blame clubs supporters for being concerned.

I think the one rule minimum I want introduced is you must use a pick from the same round to match a bid, work out the rest but that would make me a feel a lot more comfortable about the academies.

 

[Jirik13]

See I don’t blame the Suns at all, they did nothing wrong. Just used the system as it’s currently designed. I would also like to see a successful Suns. I would like to feel like it wasn’t simply because the AFL refused to allow it to fail though.

Between the assistance package, the haul this year and the potential for some considerable talent incoming over the coming few years you can’t blame clubs supporters for being concerned.

I think the one rule minimum I want introduced is you must use a pick from the same round to match a bid, work out the rest but that would make me a feel a lot more comfortable about the academies.

I would not put too much limit on when the team does not play finals. In the end if the clubs languish at the bottom as Suns did and North recently concessions are applied by AFL and everybody goes nuts. Looking at North they are loaded too except still some holes in defence and forward. North list of young talent is impressive.

 

[WilloTree]

Would like to see the AFL penalise teams for behind the scenes deals on when to make bids. North not bidding on Walter with pick for example, or even worse GWS not bidding on Nick Daicos at all.

If you get rid of bids, this is impossible.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I would not put too much limit on when the team does not play finals. In the end if the clubs languish at the bottom as Suns did and North recently concessions are applied by AFL and everybody goes nuts. Looking at North they are loaded too except still some holes in defence and forward. North list of young talent is impressive.

The problem with just saying it’s okay if they are bad is it still has an effect on other bad teams trying to rebuild. I have an even bigger issue with that North situation. I think the league as a whole has so many issues to address. Priority picks are an absolute joke.

The draft and the salary cap are the measures in place to rebuild a team. If a club is well run they will rebuild in time. What we need is a clear run at these things. Academies are a part of the issue. Father son another part, compensation picks and priority picks another.

Let the equalisation measures do what they are supposed to do and butt out from the rest as a league.

 

[Dangerousfield]

Over the last 20 years? They are absolutely nowhere near the middle. How about over the last 40?

In real terms, over the last half century no club has been funded like Sydney.

Gold Coast have cost more in a decade than Sydney in four!

I read that QBE sponsor their academy to the tune of $1mill pa

 

[Membling]

I am intrigued that the afl haven't opened up both QLD and NSW for academies to all clubs.

Divvie up the state and enable all clubs to run an academy in the states. Have to have guidelines about who is eligible, minimum requirements for the academy running (spending, contact hours, eligibility). Allow all clubs to prelist their academy members onto their list.

Rewards Academy success, increases funding into both QLD and NSW grass roots footy, grows the drafting pool of talent, etc etc

 

[Jirik13]

Gold Coast have cost more in a decade than Sydney in four!

I read that QBE sponsor their academy to the tune of $1mill pa

How much does extra game per week bring to AFL? A couple of years ago Gillon talked about 50M per year.

Let's not forget clubs like GWS, Lions, Saints, Bulldogs are not far behind in AFL contributions.

Let's not forget growth of the game in QLD which now even the strongest opponents of expansion acknowledge.

BTW, IMO, Sydney is doing great job. But their start in Sydney was painful if I read it correctly. I sure hope Suns will get there one day too. Just don't want to wait too long. I could be gone by that time.