News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[JTTheKing]

A lot has changed in the past 10 years so maybe it is the new pattern. The F/S are part of the clubs academies and they get elite coaching and development all through their teen years, not just when they are drafted. Lions have gotten 3 guns 3 seasons via this on the back of academy selections and then having enough capital left over to recruit gun players too.

The Pies traded their future pick since they knew it would be eaten up by the F/S selection and they could get the points at the same time with junk picks. You can keep flipping the higher pick for more points at the multiple lower picks and end up with extra 2nd rounders due to the flawed system.

If they had of kept Pick 2, they would have had both Callaghan and Daicos. Under the new system and no access in the 1st round, the Pies would have probably used pick 2 on Diacos anyway. Instead they got Reef McInnes & Caleb Poulter as a bonus plus Diacos.

Making a side wait 1 year for any extra special treatment is the way it should be. Even better is to offer no special treatment.

But they have to be talented enough in the first place for the clubs to even bother with their development.

Daicos was a jet since the time he was like 11. He was dominating state junior footy from a very young age. I imagine it was similar with Darcy and the Ashcrofts.

I’m well aware of what the Pies did. i don’t agree with that old system. I also don’t agree with a system where teams are locked out of father sons. Seems completely ridiculous to me.

As I already said this isn’t teams producing race horses. At the end of the day a father son being good at footy and good enough to stick with it and develop through their clubs academy is completely random. Clubs could spend all the money in the world but if their ex players are having girls or having kids with limited athletic traits they won’t make it.

It’s far different to the academies having a massive catchment of players and gobbling up all the talented players in that area.

Giving a team a high pick for finishing towards the bottom isn’t special treatment. It’s just how any sporting league with a draft works. Completely absurd to imply that is special treatment. Not sure how else a team that has had a down year is meant to improve, particularly when you have teams like Geelong come a kick off a prelim and then get Bailey Smith basically for nothing. All because gun players can just completely **** clubs over and they have to accept it.

Your idea essentially gives even more incentive for a team like North to languish at the bottom even longer.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

inequality, as you say, exists in all areas of the AFL, and it is not just linked to on-field stuff. Is it not equally disequal for WCE to receive $16.8 million in distributions while clubs like StK and NM get upwards of $25 million. Is it not disequal that despite this, WC pay 60% of their profit to the WAFC to help fund a talent pathway that ultimately benefits all clubs while offering no advantage to WC. Is it not disequal that Vic clubs that receive more are not required to contribute in the same way to the talent pathways in Victoria.

Not whinging, just pointing out that clubs like StK whinging about FS and Academies should perhaps be grateful they still exist... if it was a truly equal, dog eat dog "business", we'd be waving them and others good-bye.

You do realise that West Coast entered into a league that was established by St Kilda and one of the ongoing obligations of the leagues is to protect the interests of its existing clubs?

Be grateful that St Kilda let you into the league and be allowed to dominate a larger population.

 

[Elixuh]

You do realise that West Coast entered into a league that was established by St Kilda and one of the ongoing obligations of the leagues is to protect the interests of its existing clubs?

Be grateful that St Kilda let you into the league and be allowed to dominate a larger population.

Without the expansion of the comp nationally and WCE of the world the VFL would have been bankrupt a long long time ago. You’re welcome. Now you don’t have to tin rattle and bake sale, as much.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Without the expansion of the comp nationally and WCE of the world the VFL would have been bankrupt a long long time ago. You’re welcome. Now you don’t have to tin rattle and bake sale, as much.

Much better to be bankrupt than to have never come into existence at all

 

[Elixuh]

Much better to be bankrupt than to have never come into existence at all

 

[Choogler]

Is this a joke?

No joke and accurate.

The Northern clubs get up to triple the allocation of the richest clubs. Freo get about 1-2m less than WC most of the time, they get an extra 20-25m depending on the year.

Not sure where you got your info but it is manifestly incorrect.

On matters of funding, I'm not gonna argue with you as you are clearly misinformed.

Start by having a look at the link below from the Age that clearly shows funding received by all clubs between 2012 - 2021. Supplement that info by looking at the AFL Reports and the distributions for 2021 - 2024... when you've got the info and become more informed, I'm happy to argue.

Until then, please don't waste my time.

AFL funding ladder revealed: $100m gap between top and bottom clubs

The size of the gap is a sore point for some power clubs, with Essendon president Paul Brasher demanding a say in how the next round of money is doled out.

www.theage.com.au

Saying they fund it is like saying my Dad gives me an allowance but I have to pay my own rent (allowance is 10 times the rent amount).

You still have to pay your rent which, if you want to use that analogy, is higher for the northern clubs than for others who only have to fund NGA and FS. More kids to house = bigger house to rent

The revolving door is an issue over here too and with all clubs in the bottom 4. The AFL doesn’t address this except for North of the border. Its own compo system encourages bad teams to let experience leave.

Not entirely true... I know Freo have a problem with revolving doors, but very few players we've wanted to keep have left WCE.

We do finally agree on something, the FA Compo system is a farce

Freo had no F/S for decades due to the rules and only just starting to come into the window. GC & GWS avoided free agency for 8 years when it came in, we’re not even at par yet in terms of disadvantage with those two things.

If you mean they didn't have to worry about FA for 8 years then that is true, but it still had no affect on the kids coming out of contract, and some still in contract, leaving the clubs

 

[Yoda_]

They will never be able to get all of them..

they will

 

[Purple Suit]

No joke and accurate.

Not sure where you got your info but it is manifestly incorrect.

On matters of funding, I'm not gonna argue with you as you are clearly misinformed.

Start by having a look at the link below from the Age that clearly shows funding received by all clubs between 2012 - 2021. Supplement that info by looking at the AFL Reports and the distributions for 2021 - 2024... when you've got the info and become more informed, I'm happy to argue.

Until then, please don't waste my time.

AFL funding ladder revealed: $100m gap between top and bottom clubs

The size of the gap is a sore point for some power clubs, with Essendon president Paul Brasher demanding a say in how the next round of money is doled out.

www.theage.com.au

You still have to pay your rent which, if you want to use that analogy, is higher for the northern clubs than for others who only have to fund NGA and FS. More kids to house = bigger house to rent

Not entirely true... I know Freo have a problem with revolving doors, but very few players we've wanted to keep have left WCE.

We do finally agree on something, the FA Compo system is a farce

If you mean they didn't have to worry about FA for 8 years then that is true, but it still had no affect on the kids coming out of contract, and some still in contract, leaving the clubs

Sorry it was double, not triple. Still an extra 16m a year. What do you think academes cost? They wouldn't even be 1m a year and they can get sponsorship so I've been told.

 

[Scotland]

Mate, no one has claimed we're hard done by. That some narrative you've invented to go off on.

Do you need to play by different rules to 14 other clubs or don't you? Make up your mind.

The entire premise of the academy argument is that without them there would be fewer players coming through to AFL level from NSW and Qld, and because the clubs fund them they therefore deserve draft concessions.

I am not the one trying to divert the discussion away from the actual thread title to talk about where the GF is played and other things that have nothing to do with junior development and the draft.

QBE has directly funded Sydney's academy for over a decade, to the tune of $1m per year in sponsorship. This has been mentioned by the Swans multiple times in draft articles and interviews.

Since 2023 the Lions academy has been funded solely through commercial sponsors, when Ausenco came on board, along with Youi and several other commercial sponsors.

That's great. Who funds the Suns and Giants academies? If Sydney and Brisbane deserve draft access to academy players because they "fund" the academies does that mean Gold Coast and GWS not? It's your logic m8.

Multiple posters have tried to explain to you why the northern clubs receive a higher distribution than the other clubs, but you completely ignore these.

Yes, because they are nothing arguments. Brisbane received $30m last year. That's well above average and $10m more than half the clubs in the comp. They also reported the highest football department spending. Am I supposed to feel sorry for Brisbane or something? Do you think you are entitled to have the fourth highest reported revenue in the competition - propped up by others?

None of this has anything to do with the topic being discussed, and in any event trying to present AFL distributions as northern clubs vs the rest is disingenuous anyway. WC aren't Port. Collingwood aren't North. And everyone is aware that GC and GWS are in a different position to everyone else given their infancy, not just clubs outside NSW and Qld.

A big part of it is the stadium lease agreements in place. Not every state/team has the same stadium costs. Before we moved in to our own training base, the Lions rented their offices and gym at the Gabba from Stadiums QLD to the tune of $1m per year. That was on top of the $1m per game it cost us to use the Gabba.

I don't know about the other northern clubs, but last financial year we turned our first profit as a club, and announced we had finally paid off our debt to the AFL.

Not relevant to academies. Smaller Melbourne clubs play home games in Tasmania and NT, I don't see Brisbane and Sydney doing that. The biggest distribution to any club outside Qld and NSW was $26.3m to North. Do you reckon Brisbane are $4m a year worse off than North? Given your membership and match returns were $5m higher and your sponsorships were $5m higher I am struggling to see a justification for it. But if Ausenco gave you $1m that changes everything!

Maybe the AFL were handing us a bigger distribution so we could payoff our debt to them.

Maybe. When someone you owe money to gives you money to pay back the money you owe them you aren't actually being self sufficient. Surely this concept isn't that difficult to digest?

Every club receives at least $15-16m and no club would be profitable without their share of central funding. Big difference between turning a profit of $1m receiving $15m vs $30m though.

West Coast don't get the same handout from the AFL, because they're the richest club in the land, as they like telling everyone. Same goes for Collingwood, Richmond etc.

And last I looked, this was a thread on academies and father sons, nothing to do with us winning anything, and I haven't mentioned anything about winning anything in these discussions. I struggle to recall any other Lions fan mentioning that either.

I think your now inventing slights and/or grudges to tee off on, as well inventing that someone has claimed to be hard done by.

OK so you do want to talk about academies, the gripe of which is how they impact the draft. No one in the context of drafting and trading actually cares how junior development works state to state. WA and SA are similar, Victoria has the Talent League rather than the old days of VFL clubs having zones, U/19s and reserves teams.

Given the draft is reverse ladder order I think winning is pretty relevant to the discussion. Sydney have four top 10 academy players on their list. They won 17, 16, 14, 5 games the seasons those players were picked. And in the season they won 5 games (out of 17) they took Logan McDonald at pick 4 out of WA and then had pick 5. Brisbane (via F/S and academy selections) have added better young talent to their list than West Coast over the last 3 seasons. 46 wins vs 10.

If Brisbane can win the flag and add picks 5 and 25 to their list (yes Levi Ashcroft is F/S but the mechanism is the same) before the team that wins the spoon has their second pick (28) what exactly is the point of having a draft?

 

[FreeAgent1]

Going to be a lot riskier for the strategic academy bids now the cost has gone up.

Just a matter of time now until someone gets stuck with someone they didn’t actually want… won’t be top 15 but 16-30 is rife with it to give more time to negotiate….

 

[Profop]

Blocking academy picks in the first round again is an odd move. Surely history just repeats itself?

Clubs will stop investing as much into the academies due to the reduction in return. The diversity of the draft will continue to fall. AFL will freak out about that and open all academy picks back up again after four years. There will be a team who gets screwed like the Dees were with Mac Andrew

 

[juddy_Like]

Isn't the obvious solution is you can only match bids with points from the next 18 picks?

If bid comes at Pick 1, you need multiple first rounders
If bid comes at Pick 18, you can still match, just with second rounders
If you come into deficit, points come off equivalent round pick next year (if you don't have it, you can't afford it so you must pass)

All this is on the onus of compo and priority picks being scrapped so the wooden spooners get Pick 19 and order continues.

 

[GC2015]

The biggest disgrace in all of this is the AFL actually choosing to listen to the designated losers of the AFL, St Kilda.

St Kilda got put in their place by the AFL and realised that the draft isn't going to be a good avenue for them in the short-term (partly to do with Tassie's introduction) when it comes to list management going forward. It's not a coincidence that they've decided to splash the cash on the likes of NWM and TDK shortly after being told that their criticisms of the draft won't change anything.

 

[bluebaggerjuls]

St Kilda got put in their place by the AFL and realised that the draft isn't going to be a good avenue for them in the short-term (partly to do with Tassie's introduction) when it comes to list management going forward. It's not a coincidence that they've decided to splash the cash on the likes of NWM and TDK shortly after being told that their criticisms of the draft won't change anything.

I wish but it’s clearly being changed unfortunately

 

[longdonkey]

The entire FS system was changed because of Hawkins.

That specific father/son rule only changed after Geelong were finished grifting the system so nobody else could.

 

[longdonkey]

inequality, as you say, exists in all areas of the AFL, and it is not just linked to on-field stuff. Is it not equally disequal for WCE to receive $16.8 million in distributions while clubs like StK and NM get upwards of $25 million. Is it not disequal that despite this, WC pay 60% of their profit to the WAFC to help fund a talent pathway that ultimately benefits all clubs while offering no advantage to WC. Is it not disequal that Vic clubs that receive more are not required to contribute in the same way to the talent pathways in Victoria.

Not whinging, just pointing out that clubs like StK whinging about FS and Academies should perhaps be grateful they still exist... if it was a truly equal, dog eat dog "business", we'd be waving them and others good-bye.

St Kilda are quite happy to whinge about Academies while they receive Academy picks for doing SFA, all the while being able feed out of our academy taking Wanganeen-Milera. When we have the temerity to try and lure him back to his home state, when he eventually resigns its a celebration of the football heartland similar to if they won a premiership. (As if that's ever going to happen) The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

 

[longdonkey]

You do realise that West Coast entered into a league that was established by St Kilda and one of the ongoing obligations of the leagues is to protect the interests of its existing clubs?

Be grateful that St Kilda let you into the league and be allowed to dominate a larger population.

Are you joking ......Without the interstate clubs St Kilda would be a footnote in history. So I guess your rationale is all the interstate clubs should pack up and leave because we aren't worthy of winning your shitbag corrupt competition.

 

[VDS66]

Here's a thought...

The AFL should fund all academies and have the players all go into the draft pool. If a Gold Coast kid gets drafted to a Vic club he can always go home. Just like SA and WA players do etc.

If you want to maintain the status quo to draft locals, then just pay fair value for them and no double dipping. The problem occurs when a team acquires a Lambo and pays with 3 MG3's. Then drafts a kid with their first round.

If your guy is a top 10 then you pay with your first round. If you have 2 first-round kids, then you need 2 first rounds to get them. If you don't have one, then bad luck. Currently, all you have is a hoarding of elite talent knowing that you will draft them.

It's a joke. And this isn't a saints fan having a whinge. We stand to lose a fair bit with sons of Hayes, Dal Santo and Roo coming through.

Grow the game and talent pool by all means because with Tassie coming in, that pool gets thinned out. But just pay a fair price and/or put in a limit of sorts.

Player retention for GWS and Suns is a problem, but if minnow clubs are told to "grow a success culture to retain and attract players", then why doen't this apply to those clubs. Brisbane overcame this recently. Reality is that GCS have been a disaster until recently, and GWS is a failed experiment in terms of breaking into the western Sydney market.

And yes, the Saints are where they are due to their own stupidity.

 

[longdonkey]

And just quietly where was all this concern for equality in the competition when Geelong were getting Gary Ablett Junior for Pick 40 and Hawthorn were getting priority picks.

 

[VDS66]

St Kilda are quite happy to whinge about Academies while they receive Academy picks for doing SFA, all the while being able feed out of our academy taking Wanganeen-Milera. When we have the temerity to try and lure him back to his home state, when he eventually resigns its a celebration of the football heartland similar to if they won a premiership. (As if that's ever going to happen) The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Was Nas one of your academy kids? Why didn't you take him? Pretty sure he nominated for the draft. Pretty sure your club has drafted a few Vic boys. Not sure what his re-signing has to do with this discussion. Where's the hypocrisy exactly?

Sounds like you're salty because he stayed.

 

[longdonkey]

Was Nas one of your academy kids? Why didn't you take him? Pretty sure he nominated for the draft. Pretty sure your club has drafted a few Vic boys. Not sure what his re-signing has to do with this discussion. Where's the hypocrisy exactly?

Sounds like you're salty because he stayed.

The AFL rules didn't allow us to take Academy kids from Adelaide metro. Another AFL rule that only applies to us and Adelaide Crows. Keeler was Adelaide Crows Academy. Kossie Pickett was Port Academy, Wayne Milera was Port Academy. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera was Adelaide Crows Academy then Port Academy, Tyson Stengle was Port Academy.

The AFL are apparently changing the rule next year just as they are about to pull access to the first round.

If I'm salty about anything its while other clubs fill their boots with NGA talent all we have to show out of that list is Lachie Jones.

 

[spky1234]

The AFL rules didn't allow us to take Academy kids from Adelaide metro. Another AFL rule that only applies to us and Adelaide Crows. Keeler was Adelaide Crows Academy. Kossie Pickett was Port Academy, Wayne Milera was Port Academy. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera was Adelaide Crows Academy then Port Academy, Tyson Stengle was Port Academy.

The AFL are apparently changing the rule next year just as they are about to pull access to the first round.

If I'm salty about anything its while other clubs fill their boots with NGA talent all we have to show out of that list is Lachie Jones.

Richmond has never had an NGA player, not anybody that's ever played more than a handful of games anyway.

Would happily take a Lachie Jones.

Also Richmond is the only Victorian club without a metro-zone, so "only applies to us" is wrong anyway.

 

[VDS66]

The AFL rules didn't allow us to take Academy kids from Adelaide metro. Another AFL rule that only applies to us and Adelaide Crows. Keeler was Adelaide Crows Academy. Kossie Pickett was Port Academy, Wayne Milera was Port Academy. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera was Adelaide Crows Academy then Port Academy, Tyson Stengle was Port Academy.

The AFL are apparently changing the rule next year just as they are about to pull access to the first round.

If I'm salty about anything its while other clubs fill their boots with NGA talent all we have to show out of that list is Lachie Jones.

Yeah and we missed out on Cam McKenzie because the AFL changed rules on the go and then changed them back.

Got a problem? Blame the AFL. Again, not sure what this has to do with us keeping Nas, and him not requesting a trade back to you.

Argue the issue by all means, not take pot shots at us for celebrating the retention of a star player. It was a cheap shot.

Hopefullythey don't change the free agent compo rules when Butters leaves you next year.

 

[Elixuh]

We’ll see everyone in a few years when the academy talent starts to tank because of lower investment, we bring a 19th team into the league and you’ve got guys like Paddy Dow

15

Paddy Dow

Age

26

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

7.1

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

2.9

4star

CL

2.6

4star

D

7.0

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

3.0

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.0

1star

D

12.4

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

2.6

5star

getting a run as best 23.

 

[briztoon]

A lot has changed in the past 10 years so maybe it is the new pattern. The F/S are part of the clubs academies and they get elite coaching and development all through their teen years, not just when they are drafted. Lions have gotten 3 guns 3 seasons via this on the back of academy selections and then having enough capital left over to recruit gun players too.

Yeah, this narrative is total b.s.

What academy kids were added before our 3 father sons?

Jack Payne, who we selected with our own natural pick in the 50’s in 2017.

Kiddy Coleman, who went undrafted in his actual draft year of 2018, retuned as an overage academy member in 2019 and was bid on late second round.

Hipwood was drafted in 2015, and Andrews was a third round bid in 2014.

Sam Marshall was the same draft as Levi Ashcroft, and was bid on at pick 25.

And Ty Gallop was a third round bid last year.

Until this year, we’ve had **** all high academy players.

In terms of high end, first round academy selections, the Lions academy has been the worst performed of all the northern academies.