News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[briztoon]

I'm not talking about Hipwood being a top liner or not, I'm talking about taking advantage of the fact that you were able to jump the draft position and get him at a discount.

Hipwood pick 14 and Keays pick 24 in the same draft for a bunch of almost worthless picks in the 40's, on top of the fact that it was the same draft you already had a pick 2 in the draft. So you in effect got a pick 14 for free.

We traded out picks 17 and 26 for those crap picks in the 30's and 40's.

We got pick 17 from losing Jack Redden to West Coast, and pick 26 from Collingwood from losing James Aish.

So you were crap that year but your 'natural' picks were pick 2, early 20s and a bunch of random meaningful pick. The net result of that year of all your trades ins and outs was that you got Schache and Keays (your natural 1st and 2nd picks) so got a pick 14 for free.

Yes we were crap, because we were being raided year on year by Vic and WA clubs for all our young talent. Yeo, Crisp, Polec, Redden, Aish, and others.

Pick 14 wasn't free. That was essentially matched from us losing Redden.

I do not give a stuff about what Hipwood's career turned out to be. All that matters was the economic advantage on draft day itself. For the purposes of discussing draft day advantages it is irrelevant. Whether or not Keays became delisted is also irrelevant. The point remains is that you were able to use multiple picks in the 40s to jump up to a pick in the mid 20's.

This is what frustrates me about this discussion. It's not about how good the players become, it's how much of an advantage you get on draft day.

What f***ing advantage. Drafting our own academy kids with picks that we got from losing players we drafted 2 or 3 years before.

Get off your f***ing rocking horse w!

The Dogs benefitted more on draft day by getting Ayce Cordy than they did Tom Liberatore, Lachie Hunter or Mitch Wallis, because we got a more valuable discount, for instance. Ayce Cordy was considered a top 10 prospect we got with pick 14, and a jump for 14 to pick 8 is more valuable than us taking a roughly pick 25-30 rated Liberatore at pick 41.

May seem counter-intuitive but it's true, in the same way that you benefitted from Hipwood and Keays that year.

 

[Mat Mann]

I've got a radical idea, no priority access, no discount.

if he's a F/S, you can trade up/down and take him
if he's an Academy kid, you can trade up/down and select him
if he's in your NGA, you are free to trade up or down and select him

you get the kid at market value.............

fixes many of the issues, the Academies continue to invest in talent in non-traditional markets, NGA's do what they were meant to do
it limits how many can be taken by any club, if GCS had to trade to get their 3 kids last year, it would wipe them out of 2 drafts, as it should, win the premiership and want a kid at pick 2, it should be a costly exercise.
it purifies the draft back to how it was envisaged, by not allowing picks to be invented.

It fixes cost issues, quantity issues, and fairness issues
win win win all around

so so easy

 

[txbyhull]

It doesn't happen. Perkins is just one example out of thousands of draftees from the past decade. But even then, he was never really tested.

There has not been one single instance of a player not going to his drafted club because he didn't want to leave his home state. Thats from 100 draftees (inc PSD and Rookie) per year over the past 20 years.

Tell that to literally every non-vic clubs recruiters and watch them laugh in your face. We draft as little as possible out of vic metro for this exact reason, they b***h and moan about not wanting to leave their private school friends and mummy and daddy, and say nah I’ll be getting a trade home or that they won’t be signing past their rookie contract. Clubs draft players for the long term, the players won’t sit out but they’ll lose them after 3 years for peanuts if they force their way out.

 

[Lore]

Hobbs told recruiters the same. So did Jagga Smith. Nick Watson, Sheezel & Wardlaw, Tsatas, Perkins, Hobbs, Tanner Bruhn, Cerra, Worpel, Ed Richards. Sh!t Paddy Dow told recruiters he wanted to be drafted by North, and cried when Carlton drafted him.

It's not about a kid standing out of football. It's about potentially wasting a top pick on a kid, and then getting screwed in the trade when the kid wants to go home in two years.

Multiple Northern academy recruiters have spoken about having a list of kids every year that they deem not draftable because they don't want to leave their home state.

Given where Tsatas, Perkins and Hobbs have ended up and the fact they’re all on the chopping block right now says to me that Essendon shouldn’t be recruiting guys that want to stay in Melbourne at the cost of their own careers. They’re not motivated enough.

 

[Lore]

I think a draft lockout would incentivise players to tank the draft a bit to get where they want to go. They do anyway, but it’ll make it worse. The clubs that already don’t bid still won’t, so those kids may slide a bit because they’re not really draftable for most clubs, plus they avoid too much exposure in their draft year and tell clubs they don’t want to be drafted by them.

If they do still get drafted somewhere else then you have a pretty strong go home factor. I doubt most of the talented northern academy blokes would stay long at a southern or western club (other than Riverina).

I think it would also compromise the business model of the northern academies. If Brisbane are competing with the NRL for the signature of a home grown talent and can’t guarantee the kid would even stay in Queensland then you’re handing the NRL a massive advantage there.

Father/sons seem to come in two moulds, the kind that don’t give a **** for one reason or another (Tom Mitchell, Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

, Joe Daniher), and the kind that couldn’t play anywhere else (Daicoses).

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Id love to know which clubs are fearful.

Carlton next year with Cody Walker

Port next year with Dougie Cochrane

Both currently look Top 5 DPs

 

[mpal6]

I think a draft lockout would incentivise players to tank the draft a bit to get where they want to go. They do anyway, but it’ll make it worse. The clubs that already don’t bid still won’t, so those kids may slide a bit because they’re not really draftable for most clubs, plus they avoid too much exposure in their draft year and tell clubs they don’t want to be drafted by them.

I would love to see the day when a Brisbane or Sydney kid openly says they've told clubs not to draft him as he can't leave home due to mental health reasons. What's being defined as "brave" today of the vic kid to say this stuff will become unacceptable the day some interstate kid does it. Another review incoming..

 

[Profop]

I would love to see the day when a Brisbane or Sydney kid openly says they've told clubs not to draft him as he can't leave home due to mental health reasons. What's being defined as "brave" today of the vic kid to say this stuff will become unacceptable the day some interstate kid does it. Another review incoming..

JHF left after a year to back home. It’s not at all unheard of for players to leave Melbourne to return home

 

[jdstorm]

Had a skim of the thread

Compo picks are screwing up the draft more than exclusive players. This season we will potentially see 3 top 10 picks created out of thin air (WCE, Essendon, Carlton) which is a huge disadvantage for every other team. They should go. Clubs will adjust and trade players a year early if they remain unsigned.

Just give every club an academy with a salary cap to equalise things (and some form of Quota system to incentive players from diverse backgrounds) will increase the overall talent/skill of the comp and is inherently fair. Far better option then outsourcing majority of talent development to Vic private schools

No priority picks for Being terrible for a prolonged period. Just fire your spud of a list manager. Bad young teams are cheap just throw money at the right vets

 

[mpal6]

JHF left after a year to back home. It’s not at all unheard of for players to leave Melbourne to return home

Post draft via trade.

My comment was about pre-draft when brave Sydney and Brisbane kids tell vic clubs not to draft them as they don't want to leave home.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Had a skim of the thread

Compo picks are screwing up the draft more than exclusive players. This season we will potentially see 3 top 10 picks created out of thin air (WCE, Essendon, Carlton) which is a huge disadvantage for every other team. They should go. Clubs will adjust and trade players a year early if they remain unsigned.

Just give every club an academy with a salary cap to equalise things (and some form of Quota system to incentive players from diverse backgrounds) will increase the overall talent/skill of the comp and is inherently fair. Far better option then outsourcing majority of talent development to Vic private schools

No priority picks for Being terrible for a prolonged period. Just fire your spud of a list manager. Bad young teams are cheap just throw money at the right vets

Compo picks are a

I think a draft lockout would incentivise players to tank the draft a bit to get where they want to go. They do anyway, but it’ll make it worse. The clubs that already don’t bid still won’t, so those kids may slide a bit because they’re not really draftable for most clubs, plus they avoid too much exposure in their draft year and tell clubs they don’t want to be drafted by them.

If they do still get drafted somewhere else then you have a pretty strong go home factor. I doubt most of the talented northern academy blokes would stay long at a southern or western club (other than Riverina).

I think it would also compromise the business model of the northern academies. If Brisbane are competing with the NRL for the signature of a home grown talent and can’t guarantee the kid would even stay in Queensland then you’re handing the NRL a massive advantage there.

Father/sons seem to come in two moulds, the kind that don’t give a **** for one reason or another (Tom Mitchell, Josh Dunkley, Joe Daniher), and the kind that couldn’t play anywhere else (Daicoses).

With how much draft rankings change, I dont think locking out the top 10 or first round is going to stop kids signing up for an AFL academy. I dont think a guarantee for staying in the state is a key motivation for these kids, its not stopped NGA sign-ups.

Not that you said this but I also dont subscribe to the idea the Northern clubs would be deincentivised to support the academy's. More talent out of the state is more players they can trade in later and its not like all talent would be off limits. Still the odd Gulden and co getting through.

Finally, if kids tell other clubs they'd rather stay at home like Vic kids seems to be doing more of then so be it, at least there's still the option to draft them.

 

[Lore]

I would love to see the day when a Brisbane or Sydney kid openly says they've told clubs not to draft him as he can't leave home due to mental health reasons. What's being defined as "brave" today of the vic kid to say this stuff will become unacceptable the day some interstate kid does it. Another review incoming..

Kids from Sydney and Brisbane by default are in your academies these days so they’re not really open for Melbourne clubs to draft and don’t need to tell us they don’t want to move. But I’m sure it’s been done over and over again, and the evidence with WA and SA is there to support it.

Melbourne clubs are arrogant enough to draft them anyway though, and it works out for them often enough that they keep doing it.

Sum result if you’re a WA or SA kid that really doesn’t want to leave home you’re probably not going to put your hand up for the draft because the odds of being drafted away from home are 16-2 (8-1), so you just play WAFL or SANFL instead.

 

[Lore]

Had a skim of the thread

Compo picks are screwing up the draft more than exclusive players. This season we will potentially see 3 top 10 picks created out of thin air (WCE, Essendon, Carlton) which is a huge disadvantage for every other team. They should go. Clubs will adjust and trade players a year early if they remain unsigned.

Just give every club an academy with a salary cap to equalise things (and some form of Quota system to incentive players from diverse backgrounds) will increase the overall talent/skill of the comp and is inherently fair. Far better option then outsourcing majority of talent development to Vic private schools

No priority picks for Being terrible for a prolonged period. Just fire your spud of a list manager. Bad young teams are cheap just throw money at the right vets

Outsourcing to private schools is cheap for the league though as parents are paying for it in tuition fees (and whatever government grants the school can get).

 

[Lore]

Compo picks are a

With how much draft rankings change, I dont think locking out the top 10 or first round is going to stop kids signing up for an AFL academy. I dont think a guarantee for staying in the state is a key motivation for these kids, its not stopped NGA sign-ups.

Not that you said this but I also dont subscribe to the idea the Northern clubs would be deincentivised to support the academy's. More talent out of the state is more players they can trade in later and its not like all talent would be off limits. Still the odd Gulden and co getting through.

Finally, if kids tell other clubs they'd rather stay at home like Vic kids seems to be doing more of then so be it, at least there's still the option to draft them.

I think the draft is a farce anyway so it’s not really a draft, just a weird sort of semi-auction system using draft points. I’d just go to a full auction with draft points (not salary based). Equal bids break in favour of the lower ranking team. Max bid 3000 points.

By tanking the draft I mean limiting their exposure. They miss the combine or the nationals with an ‘injury’, or put about a rumour of a chronic injury, act stupid in interviews, or whatever.

 

[Lore]

I think the draft is a farce anyway so it’s not really a draft, just a weird sort of semi-auction system using draft points. I’d just go to a full auction with draft points (not salary based). Equal bids break in favour of the lower ranking team. Max bid 3000 points.

By tanking the draft I mean limiting their exposure. They miss the combine or the nationals with an ‘injury’, or put about a rumour of a chronic injury, act stupid in interviews, or whatever.

This kind of auction would also mean years where the top 10 are really good could all go for 3000 points and then it scales off considerably, while shit years could go for less.

 

[mpal6]

Kids from Sydney and Brisbane by default are in your academies these days so they’re not really open for Melbourne clubs to draft and don’t need to tell us they don’t want to move. But I’m sure it’s been done over and over again, and the evidence with WA and SA is there to support it.

Melbourne clubs are arrogant enough to draft them anyway though, and it works out for them often enough that they keep doing it.

Sum result if you’re a WA or SA kid that really doesn’t want to leave home you’re probably not going to put your hand up for the draft because the odds of being drafted away from home are 16-2 (8-1), so you just play WAFL or SANFL instead.

Sorry I meant the future where Academies are banned from drafting first rounders.

I'd love for the brave kid to express his feelings and speak his mind - telling vic clubs not to waste a pick on him as he want to stay home.

 

[Lore]

Sorry I meant the future where Academies are banned from drafting first rounders.

I'd love for the brave kid to express his feelings and speak his mind - telling vic clubs not to waste a pick on him as he want to stay home.

I think it would happen, or else they’d go play NRL.

 

[SurreyBlue]

I've got a radical idea, no priority access, no discount.

if he's a F/S, you can trade up/down and take him
if he's an Academy kid, you can trade up/down and select him
if he's in your NGA, you are free to trade up or down and select him

you get the kid at market value.............

fixes many of the issues, the Academies continue to invest in talent in non-traditional markets, NGA's do what they were meant to do
it limits how many can be taken by any club, if GCS had to trade to get their 3 kids last year, it would wipe them out of 2 drafts, as it should, win the premiership and want a kid at pick 2, it should be a costly exercise.
it purifies the draft back to how it was envisaged, by not allowing picks to be invented.

It fixes cost issues, quantity issues, and fairness issues
win win win all around

so so easy

StKilda and other teams wouldn’t trade the live pick or any pick for the FS team to get their kid.
That is obvious, so your argument has a huge hole.

 

[mpal6]

I think it would happen, or else they’d go play NRL.

Market is skewed to good teenagers getting big NRL contracts from the get go. It will be harder to compete if AFL chooses to head down this path. As usual, they'll have another flip flop decision going the other way in a few years time.

What if? Brisbane rues the one that got away

Rugby league State of Origin debutant was almost a Lion

www.afl.com.au

Knights offer teenager $3.6m NRL deal

Newcastle have offered NRL teen prodigy Kalyn Ponga more than $700,000 a season in a five-year deal, according to reports.

www.espn.com.au

 

[jdstorm]

Outsourcing to private schools is cheap for the league though as parents are paying for it in tuition fees (and whatever government grants the school can get).

Kmart is cheap too. Doesn’t mean it’s the best option to buy clothes

 

[Lore]

Market is skewed to good teenagers getting big NRL contracts from the get go. It will be harder to compete if AFL chooses to head down this path. As usual, they'll have another flip flop decision going the other way in a few years time.

What if? Brisbane rues the one that got away

Rugby league State of Origin debutant was almost a Lion

www.afl.com.au

Knights offer teenager $3.6m NRL deal

Newcastle have offered NRL teen prodigy Kalyn Ponga more than $700,000 a season in a five-year deal, according to reports.

www.espn.com.au

Father sons have the right to sign an early contract I think? The draft wage is still low but can increase significantly in the years beyond the draft-capped part. Should extend it to academies.

 

[Lore]

Kmart is cheap too. Doesn’t mean it’s the best option to buy clothes

Yeah but the players want bigger salaries and there’s all the stuff with concussion and CTE law suits and trying to keep a couple of clubs afloat at any given time, plus paying all their executives and other programs.

I agree with you I just don’t see it ever happening unless we get to a nationalised seconds comp with “23rd man” type rules for top draft prospects.

 

[JTTheKing]

Ablett Jnr
Hawkins
Scarlett
Jobe Watson
Fletcher
Silvagni\
Waite
Joe Daniher
Heath Shaw
Jonathan Brown
Waite
Bowden
Cloke brothers

Now do all the duds

 

[JTTheKing]

It’s actually amazing in the afl how the squealing minorities constantly seem to drive change they want, while the majority are ignored.

Not sure I can name others sporting league run like that

 

[Ashman23]

Market is skewed to good teenagers getting big NRL contracts from the get go. It will be harder to compete if AFL chooses to head down this path. As usual, they'll have another flip flop decision going the other way in a few years time.

What if? Brisbane rues the one that got away

Rugby league State of Origin debutant was almost a Lion

www.afl.com.au

Knights offer teenager $3.6m NRL deal

Newcastle have offered NRL teen prodigy Kalyn Ponga more than $700,000 a season in a five-year deal, according to reports.

www.espn.com.au

As I was reading through the past couple of pages, I started to think 'Would draftees be 'happier' to move to another state if the average pay was higher across the whole AFL'?

I know we fans like the romance and a premiership is what we crave.

The higher payrates may mean players would see the AFL as a bit more of a business and just 'play for the pay' and treat an AFL career as a job but it might create a more open to move mindset.