AFL Player Heights

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Jan 17, 2008
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Brisvegas
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Hawthorn
Hoping this thread can do the heavy lifting on this topic instead of it all existing in the AFL draft thread :)

As this is inspired by Nick Watson, I'm going to focus on small players whom we might think could be forwards, mids and forward mids. I am also including defender mids as that is what Caleb Daniels is classified as (according to Footywire) and we can't talk about short players in the AFL without talking about Caleb!

Here goes...

Firstly, I am using data from Footywire. That includes heights and positions. They are rounded to the nearest cm by Footywire. Don't hate me if some are wrong or off a bit. Caleb Daniels is listed as 170cm in this dataset and is the shortest player in the AFL. This analysis is to talk through the trends. Every player is unique and if they are playing in the afl, they must have something going for them. Also note, while I have all listed players in 2023 in the data, not all of them record a stat or even play a game. So there is some bias in the data in that some players just aren't good enough for the level. If this correlates with height then it might skew the results a little but not heaps. Just relax about Bias as I'm not going to solve this issue today :drunk:

1. Distribution of height by position: You can see there are some clear distribution differences by position. the KDE curve predicts the distribution based on density. Just because a line extends down to 160 cm, doesn't mean there are any players at that height and position but because Caleb Daniels, anything is possible! What is suggests is that your chances of being a midfielder if you are sub 175cm are tiny. At sub 170, not even the KDE curve predicts it is possible. Similar story for Midfield Forward players. Of the 11 players who are less than 175 cm tall, they are all listed as forwards or defender forwards. If Watson is going to anything other than a permanent forward, he is going to have to be a unicorn based on the distribution of 2023 players.
1692233201980.png

What niche do shorter players


2. Goals: This chart has the distribution of players by height and goals per game (there are no position limitations in this chart or any like it that follow). Generally speaking, your sub-180cm players do make good goal scorers relative to 180-190cm players (noting there are many exceptional outlier goal scorers in that range also). At sub-180cm, players that aren't good goal scorers get elected out of the data as they, on average, have less position flexibility than 180-190cm players, who are found in almost every position.
1692234387859.png

3. Tackles inside 50: Sub-180cm players in the afl in 2023 are on average tackle inside fifty more than taller size ranges. Makes sense. If you are shorter, you are probably fast, play forward, kick goals and tackle. That is your job and you need to be better at it than a taller player, who might be a bit more versatile.
1692234752782.png

So what niche is hard to fill as a sub-180cm player? Inside midfielder. It is clearly not impossible (e.g. Neale, Serong) but the distribution of output in key metrics is well below those for 180-190cm players.

4. Clearances: Sub-180cm players do little better than KPP players (190-200cm). Caleb Daniel aside, there isn't a player under 175cm averaging two clearances or more a game.
1692235105527.png

5. Centre Clearances: Looks worse for centre clearances than clearances in general, especially for sub-175cm players. IT doesn't look like they get many opportunities in the centre.

1692235278639.png

6. Stoppage Clearances: Similar story as the last two charts. The sub-175cm player appear to get most of their clearances from stoppages. Likely, forward fifty stoppages as opportunists rather than target players.
1692235354947.png

The moral of the story is, if you are drafting a sub-175cm player, you are drafting a small forward. Maybe pinch hit at stoppages and in the centre square but primarily you are drafting a small forward unless...that player is an absolute unicorn in every sense of the word (except the literal sense). A player could come along at Watson's height and be a dominant mid. But it would be without precedence in modern times and way outside the distribution of current players who are close to his height (no one is as short as Watson in the AFL). He has all the tools (except height I guess!) to make it as small forward and is a top 10 talent in this draft. As far as unicorns go, Caleb Daniel is a unicorn stoppage player at almost the same height (depending on what listing you look at) and he isn't a dominant stoppage player by any means. IF Watson can do any better, he will be a truly remarkable player.
 
Very impressive analysis Brishawk, and whilst I like what Watson brings to the table, I have fears no matter how skilled he is, he will get brushed aside and bullied at AFL level, which is a sizeable risk to take at the top end of the draft. For this reason I could also see him sliding to more around pick 10.

Time will tell.
 

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Now we know why Caleb Daniel wears a helmet. He's covering up his unicorn horn.
 
As far as unicorns go, Caleb Daniel is a unicorn stoppage player at almost the same height (depending on what listing you look at) and he isn't a dominant stoppage player by any means. IF Watson can do any better, he will be a truly remarkable player.
Good analysis. Is Daniel also a unicorn in the back half? Because he's pretty damaging on transition.
 
Hoping this thread can do the heavy lifting on this topic instead of it all existing in the AFL draft thread :)

As this is inspired by Nick Watson, I'm going to focus on small players whom we might think could be forwards, mids and forward mids. I am also including defender mids as that is what Caleb Daniels is classified as (according to Footywire) and we can't talk about short players in the AFL without talking about Caleb!

Here goes...

Firstly, I am using data from Footywire. That includes heights and positions. They are rounded to the nearest cm by Footywire. Don't hate me if some are wrong or off a bit. Caleb Daniels is listed as 170cm in this dataset and is the shortest player in the AFL. This analysis is to talk through the trends. Every player is unique and if they are playing in the afl, they must have something going for them. Also note, while I have all listed players in 2023 in the data, not all of them record a stat or even play a game. So there is some bias in the data in that some players just aren't good enough for the level. If this correlates with height then it might skew the results a little but not heaps. Just relax about Bias as I'm not going to solve this issue today :drunk:

1. Distribution of height by position: You can see there are some clear distribution differences by position. the KDE curve predicts the distribution based on density. Just because a line extends down to 160 cm, doesn't mean there are any players at that height and position but because Caleb Daniels, anything is possible! What is suggests is that your chances of being a midfielder if you are sub 175cm are tiny. At sub 170, not even the KDE curve predicts it is possible. Similar story for Midfield Forward players. Of the 11 players who are less than 175 cm tall, they are all listed as forwards or defender forwards. If Watson is going to anything other than a permanent forward, he is going to have to be a unicorn based on the distribution of 2023 players.
View attachment 1776418

What niche do shorter players


2. Goals: This chart has the distribution of players by height and goals per game (there are no position limitations in this chart or any like it that follow). Generally speaking, your sub-180cm players do make good goal scorers relative to 180-190cm players (noting there are many exceptional outlier goal scorers in that range also). At sub-180cm, players that aren't good goal scorers get elected out of the data as they, on average, have less position flexibility than 180-190cm players, who are found in almost every position.
View attachment 1776427

3. Tackles inside 50: Sub-180cm players in the afl in 2023 are on average tackle inside fifty more than taller size ranges. Makes sense. If you are shorter, you are probably fast, play forward, kick goals and tackle. That is your job and you need to be better at it than a taller player, who might be a bit more versatile.
View attachment 1776432

So what niche is hard to fill as a sub-180cm player? Inside midfielder. It is clearly not impossible (e.g. Neale, Serong) but the distribution of output in key metrics is well below those for 180-190cm players.

4. Clearances: Sub-180cm players do little better than KPP players (190-200cm). Caleb Daniel aside, there isn't a player under 175cm averaging two clearances or more a game.
View attachment 1776435

5. Centre Clearances: Looks worse for centre clearances than clearances in general, especially for sub-175cm players. IT doesn't look like they get many opportunities in the centre.

View attachment 1776441

6. Stoppage Clearances: Similar story as the last two charts. The sub-175cm player appear to get most of their clearances from stoppages. Likely, forward fifty stoppages as opportunists rather than target players.
View attachment 1776442

The moral of the story is, if you are drafting a sub-175cm player, you are drafting a small forward. Maybe pinch hit at stoppages and in the centre square but primarily you are drafting a small forward unless...that player is an absolute unicorn in every sense of the word (except the literal sense). A player could come along at Watson's height and be a dominant mid. But it would be without precedence in modern times and way outside the distribution of current players who are close to his height (no one is as short as Watson in the AFL). He has all the tools (except height I guess!) to make it as small forward and is a top 10 talent in this draft. As far as unicorns go, Caleb Daniel is a unicorn stoppage player at almost the same height (depending on what listing you look at) and he isn't a dominant stoppage player by any means. IF Watson can do any better, he will be a truly remarkable player.
Brilliant mate love ure work and this is no exception. As you say Watson will be truly remarkable ;)
 
Brilliant mate love ure work and this is no exception. As you say Watson will be truly remarkable ;)
If he lives up to your expectations then he truly will be 😀

Unicorn GIF by MOODMAN
 
I decided to take a look at the long term trend in player heights. Sadly, this data source lacks the player positions of the other source but I have it for the entire existence of the VFL/AFL (subject to some omissions). Note, this data is limited to those players who played AT LEAST ONE GAME for the senior side. It doesn't have listed players who failed to debut. This probably upwardly biases the mean height of players in comparison to the list mean but it can't be helped at this point.

1. Player count by year of birth (YOB): To my surprise, the number of players by YOB does not trend upwards over time with the expansion in number of clubs. I suspect this indicates that players now play longer and so fewer players are required per team. Clubs also have smaller list sizes in general compared to at the beginning of the AFL era (not sure on 'lists' as a concept as we go back further).
1692495185747.png

2. Mean games played by YOB: the 'longer career' hypothesis is supported by plotting the mean number of games by YOB. The 'collapse' in recent years is mostly a function of the youngest players not having had sufficient time to have played a full career of games yet but I wonder if there is a downward trend emerging. Something to watch.
1692495792027.png

3. Player height by YOB: We can see in this plot that player heights began increasing prior to WWII (not super clear on this chart by trust me on this). We see few 200cm players born prior to 1940 while they are increasingly common from 1960 onwards. We see also that bottom of the distribution also rises. Players sub-170cm in height were always in the bottom 25% of the distribution but become increasingly rare from around 1940 onwards.
1692495968712.png

4. Mean player height by YOB: We can more clearly see the change in player heights by examining the change in mean height by YOB. Now we can see that player heights are trending down from around 1990! I believe the most recent years are affected by a bias that means taller players debut later and thus the most recent YOB will have more shorter players. Between around 1980 and 2000 the mean height is mostly flat suggesting we are seeing players are probably as tall now as they are ever likely to get subject to population and health dynamics remaining constant.
1692496850992.png

5. Player weight and height: I'm sceptical about the accuracy of player weights (more so than heights) but they show a linear relationship that exists before and after 1940, suggesting most of the increase in player weights is tied to an increase in player heights. But at the taller heights at least, we can see that the distribution of heavier players comes at a lower height on average. This is counter to the expectation that players player at a higher weight for their height! My best hypothesis is that player weights for older records are based on the players peak (or even later years) where as weights now are likely take at time of draft and infrequently updated.
1692498032137.png

I have a few more things to post on this topic but I'll save that for another post :)
 

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I decided to take a look at the long term trend in player heights. Sadly, this data source lacks the player positions of the other source but I have it for the entire existence of the VFL/AFL (subject to some omissions). Note, this data is limited to those players who played AT LEAST ONE GAME for the senior side. It doesn't have listed players who failed to debut. This probably upwardly biases the mean height of players in comparison to the list mean but it can't be helped at this point.

1. Player count by year of birth (YOB): To my surprise, the number of players by YOB does not trend upwards over time with the expansion in number of clubs. I suspect this indicates that players now play longer and so fewer players are required per team. Clubs also have smaller list sizes in general compared to at the beginning of the AFL era (not sure on 'lists' as a concept as we go back further).
View attachment 1779603

2. Mean games played by YOB: the 'longer career' hypothesis is supported by plotting the mean number of games by YOB. The 'collapse' in recent years is mostly a function of the youngest players not having had sufficient time to have played a full career of games yet but I wonder if there is a downward trend emerging. Something to watch.
View attachment 1779621

3. Player height by YOB: We can see in this plot that player heights began increasing prior to WWII (not super clear on this chart by trust me on this). We see few 200cm players born prior to 1940 while they are increasingly common from 1960 onwards. We see also that bottom of the distribution also rises. Players sub-170cm in height were always in the bottom 25% of the distribution but become increasingly rare from around 1940 onwards.
View attachment 1779624

4. Mean player height by YOB: We can more clearly see the change in player heights by examining the change in mean height by YOB. Now we can see that player heights are trending down from around 1990! I believe the most recent years are affected by a bias that means taller players debut later and thus the most recent YOB will have more shorter players. Between around 1980 and 2000 the mean height is mostly flat suggesting we are seeing players are probably as tall now as they are ever likely to get subject to population and health dynamics remaining constant.
View attachment 1779650

5. Player weight and height: I'm sceptical about the accuracy of player weights (more so than heights) but they show a linear relationship that exists before and after 1940, suggesting most of the increase in player weights is tied to an increase in player heights. But at the taller heights at least, we can see that the distribution of heavier players comes at a lower height on average. This is counter to the expectation that players player at a higher weight for their height! My best hypothesis is that player weights for older records are based on the players peak (or even later years) where as weights now are likely take at time of draft and infrequently updated.
View attachment 1779677

I have a few more things to post on this topic but I'll save that for another post :)
Thanks for this mate.This confirms what i already knew about the talent across the competition. It has fallen over the last 10 - 15 years with the number of teams in the competition. You can see that in the VFL. The Port Melbourne teams a decade ago would flog most of the teams today. Yes players are getting bigger, stronger and faster. You need to be athletically gifted these days or you get overlooked gone are the days of a Greg Williams. If you can run you will get drafted and then as i said get delisted as you don't have the talent to sustain a career
 
Thanks for this mate.This confirms what i already knew about the talent across the competition. It has fallen over the last 10 - 15 years with the number of teams in the competition. You can see that in the VFL. The Port Melbourne teams a decade ago would flog most of the teams today. Yes players are getting bigger, stronger and faster. You need to be athletically gifted these days or you get overlooked gone are the days of a Greg Williams. If you can run you will get drafted and then as i said get delisted as you don't have the talent to sustain a career
We shouldnt discount the impact of a rise in professionalism and logevity in the game. Firstly, because the greater financial incentive keeps players in the game longer (for most they will now earn less out of football than in it where as before the opposite was true). Secondly, the strength, conditioning and recovery practice is far superior now than in the past. We can repair players better through rehab and surgery. And its worth doing it because of the money at stake.
 
We shouldnt discount the impact of a rise in professionalism and logevity in the game. Firstly, because the greater financial incentive keeps players in the game longer (for most they will now earn less out of football than in it where as before the opposite was true). Secondly, the strength, conditioning and recovery practice is far superior now than in the past. We can repair players better through rehab and surgery. And its worth doing it because of the money at stake.
Wasn't all that long ago that an ACL was just about considered a flip of the coin on whether or not a players career was over or if they'd take the next 2-3 years to get back to anywhere near their best. Now we've got players coming back from them, hitting the ground running, and even reaching new heights. eg. Sicily.
 
Wasn't all that long ago that an ACL was just about considered a flip of the coin on whether or not a players career was over or if they'd take the next 2-3 years to get back to anywhere near their best. Now we've got players coming back from them, hitting the ground running, and even reaching new heights. eg. Sicily.
Pun intended? 😂
 

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A couple more charts to round out the analysis :)

For this part, Height Band is defined as follows:
Small: <=179cm
Medium: 180cm to <=189cm
Tall: 190cm to <=199cm
X-Tall: 200cm+

1. Goals scored by Height Band: I use a 5 year rolling average of goals scored by height band. As per the hypothesis stated in my first post, smaller players have increasingly been selected as small forwards in place of midfielders relative to medium players. We observe this primarily as a decline in the average goals scored by medium players relative to small players. Note, I'm not controlling for league wide trends in goal scoring so we can only consider these trends relative to each other and not in an absolute sense.
1692508244373.png

2. Same chart again but with Tall and X-Tall: What I think we are seeing is the long and slow emergence of the X-Tall player as a goal kicker. Starting with Paul Salmon back in the 1980s, ruckman-sized forwards have become a growing precedes inside the forward city. This is partly due to more athletic talls playing forward instead of ruck, and ruckman pushing/resting forward rather than playing a kick behind the play. The average of Tall players has slowly decline as more players of this size play in the midfield and as defenders (under the hypothesis that forwards are on average taller than defenders due to scarcity).
1692508539512.png

3. Given what we have seen, you might expect Small and X-Talls to dominate the total goals scored in recent times. This is not the case. In line with a trend towards more goal kickers, we see medium perform as well, if not better in terms of total goals scored.
1692508470244.png
 

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