Society/Culture Are hierarchies bad?

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Malifice

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A hierarchy is essentially an order. Some have more, some have less. That is a hierarchy.
No, that's not the definition either.

Lets go with the OED for fu**s sake:

''a system, especially in a society or an organization, in which people are organized into different levels of importance from highest to lowest.''

hierarchy noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Police are not in a hierarchy with non police 'at the bottom'. Its not that they're above you or I in any way.

Within the police force, there is a hierarchy however (ranging from constable to senior constable to sergeant to commissioner etc)

Can we stick with the OED definition from now on please?

Yes or No.
 

Sweet Jesus

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So it's not endorsed by our society. It doesn't reflect any hierarchy enshrined in our society.

The point is the mere [exercise of coercive power] such as me forcing you at gunpoint to do something, does not imply (or require) the existence of a hierarchy.
I didn't suggest it did.

I'm talking about whether hierarchies are necessary for society to function. I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

Can you at least concede this point - [exercise of power/ coercion] does not a hierarchy make/ imply or require.
That depends on the nature of the power being exercised.

Policing requires a hierarchy, sanctioned by our society, that demands some folks have more access to state power than others.

Police have more power. You and I have less.

That is a hierarchy.
 

Sweet Jesus

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No, that's not the definition either.

Lets go with the OED for fu**s sake:

''a system, especially in a society or an organization, in which people are organized into different levels of importance from highest to lowest.''

hierarchy noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Police are not in a hierarchy with non police 'at the bottom'. Its not that they're above you or I in any way.
Of course they are.

We are all in a hierarchy based on who has more or less access to state power.

Police are above you and I in that hierarchy.

This is a basic observation.

You just can't face the reality that your call to dismantle hierarchies falls apart when you consider the practicalities.
 

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Malifice

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Of course they are.

We are all in a hierarchy based on who has access to state power.

Police are above you and I in that hierarchy.

This is a basic observation.
Oh my ******* God. I dont care what YOUR definition is mate.

If we're going to debate the benefits and desirability of hierarchies, can we please use the actual definition of what they are, as found in the OED?

Yes or No?

If the answer is No (and we have to use 'what Sweet Jesus mistakenly thinks hierarchies are' as the definition), then I concede the argument here and now.
 

Malifice

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I didn't suggest [that the exercise of coercive power such as someone forcing someone at gunpoint to do something, implies implies the existence of a hierarchy]
Yes you did, and then you hilariously immediately did it again in the exact same post:

Police have more power. You and I have less.

That is a hierarchy.
Jesus mate.

Power does not equal the exitance of a hierarchy.

People use hierarchies to exert power and influence, but hierarchies are not needed to do so.
 
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Sweet Jesus

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Oh my ******* God. I dont care what YOUR definition is mate.

If we're going to debate the benefits and desirability of hierarchies, can we please use the actual definition of what they are, as found in the OED?

Yes or No?

If the answer is No (and we have to use 'what Sweet Jesus mistakenly thinks hierarchies are' as the definition), then I concede the argument here and now.
Don't get agitated simply because your deeply ideological positions don't stack up.

I've explained to you several times how policing requires a hierarchy, based on access to state power. They have more, we have less. That is a hierarchy.

This is an entirely uncontroversial statement.

If you can't bear it, stop responding. You're not a clear thinker at the best of times, so I can't say I'm interesting in your repeated attempts at making sense of it all.
 

Malifice

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I've explained to you several times how policing requires a hierarchy, based on access to state power.
And I've explained to you multiple times, that this is simply what you think it means, and not the actual definition of what a hierarchy is.

Your definition is not relevant to anyone other than yourself. In that respect, you're right (you cant be wrong, because its you know, your own definition you're arguing for, while ignoring what a hierarchy actually is).

If you want to argue a hierarchy is a blue cat, who am I to argue with that definition, but it serves no purpose in a thread designed to discuss actual hierarchies.

As you've shown yet again zero desire to debate in good faith, it's best you sit this one out.
 

armpit

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Any group of people needs an organising function, be it a tribal leader, benevolent king or duly elected govt. There's no way around it. It's really just semantics to quibble about whether that organising function constitutes a hierarchy in my mind.

People are happy to give up some things, eg money by way of taxes to have certain human needs fulfilled. At a basic level, food, clothing, housing, education etc.

It's only when the governing body/ organising function takes unto itself powers/ makes decisions that are seen to be not pro the people that we have a problem. It's why the American forefathers wrote that the American people can be armed, so they can take down or resist a govt that has stopped working in their best interests.
 

armpit

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It can evolve into one. The more the people the more likely. The more the fear the more likely. The more people the more the burgeoning bureaucracy and the more likely they and their leaders are to becoming full of their false sense of power. It becomes about themselves, rather than the good of the people. Before ya know it, the little men in suits start dictating how an honest worker is to live their life.
 

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Carringbush2010

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Bullshit.

Name a hierarchy that is not oppressive to those on the bottom.
What are you 5?

Please explain to us all that hierarchy is the cause of that oppression.

I'll give you a hint, it's not f*n hierarchy it's fkhead humans.

You're actually part of a hierarchy! Here on BF! Are you suggesting you're an oppressor?, is that part of the interview here on BF to be a mod? 'You must oppress to be part of the BF hierarchy'🤪

Listen to yourself! Some sort conspiracy theory you got there mate!

I call bullshit on your bullshit, FMD how naive can you be?
 

Malifice

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Please explain to us all that hierarchy is the cause of oppression.
OK, lets start here:

A racial hierarchy is a system of stratification that is based on the belief that some racial groups are superior to other racial groups. At various points of history, racial hierarchies have featured in societies, often being formally instituted in law, such as in the Nuremberg Laws in Nazi Germany.
Racial hierarchy - Wikipedia

Explain to me how this hierarchy was a good thing?

The supposed existence of differences between the 'races' was used to establish 'Racial hierarchies', which were ten were used to justify slavery, genocide, colonialism, apartheid, disenfranchisement and worse.

Do you agree this hierarchy was the cause of oppression?
 

armpit

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So if States are not hierarchies, what is their relevance to this thread?
Forget the states. I think carringbush's idea is far more interesting and relevant. Let's talk about whether or not big footy is a patriarchal hierarchy.
 

Carringbush2010

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So this is the definition of hierarchy from the dictionary, if anyone wants to disagree with it - knock yourself out.

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So in answer to the thread question

> NO <
 

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