Society/Culture Are people who join sub-cultures just conformists like the rest of us?

[Here_we_come]

I was watching an interesting show from National Geographic recently about different sub-cultures in Western societies. One person from the show, a part of the punk sub-culture in England, made it clear he was a non-conformist and was proud to be punk because it separated him from ‘mainstream’ society. He was proud to be unique, he ‘liked being different’, and resented the conventional way of life that most of us enjoy. What’s more is that he seemed to think he was in some way intellectually superior because he was punk, and not just a mere sheep like conventional people.

However, this attitude got me thinking. Are people who join sub-cultures really non-conformists, or are they actually bigger conformists than the rest of us?

Given that this particular sub-culture’s ethos, expected appearance, and norms are arguably more extreme than those of the ‘mainstream’ population, I’d argue that it takes more effort to conform to this subgroup, which essentially makes them bigger conformists than those in the mainstream population. The only difference is that there are fewer people.

There is nothing wrong with being goth, punk, emo, or part of any subculture for that matter. I have nothing against them and society would be a boring place if everyone was the same. I just didn’t like this particular person’s attitude that indicated he thought he was superior for being ‘non-conformist’ and part of a subgroup.

Anyone ever met anyone like this?
Thoughts?

 

[Checkers_Nixon]

I was watching an interesting show from National Geographic recently about different sub-cultures in Western societies. One person from the show, a part of the punk sub-culture in England, made it clear he was a non-conformist and was proud to be punk because it separated him from ‘mainstream’ society. He was proud to be unique, he ‘liked being different’, and resented the conventional way of life that most of us enjoy. What’s more is that he seemed to think he was in some way intellectually superior because he was punk, and not just a mere sheep like conventional people.

However, this attitude got me thinking. Are people who join sub-cultures really non-conformists, or are they actually bigger conformists than the rest of us?

Given that this particular sub-culture’s ethos, expected appearance, and norms are arguably more extreme than those of the ‘mainstream’ population, I’d argue that it takes more effort to conform to this subgroup, which essentially makes them bigger conformists than those in the mainstream population. The only difference is that there are fewer people.

There is nothing wrong with being goth, punk, emo, or part of any subculture for that matter. I have nothing against them and society would be a boring place if everyone was the same. I just didn’t like this particular person’s attitude that indicated he thought he was superior for being ‘non-conformist’ and part of a subgroup.

Anyone ever met anyone like this?
Thoughts?

A good point.

I think your observations also apply to leftist organisations. During my time on University campus in the UK, I spent quite alot of time fighting and studying the fascinating organism that is leftist student organisations.

Group think permeated those leftist organisations so badly that dissenting opinion was completely outlawed. They all had to subscribe to an ever narrow set of extreme left principles.

It is actually quite hilarious.

You notice the same with any fringe group. People join because they want to be different...but then being different becomes normal for that group, so then to remain in the group its members have to conform...Then with time members get sick of the conformity and start a new splinter group and the process starts again.

Some times its hip to be square.

 

[The Passenger]

the thing i don't get with people that belong in a "scene" is the amount of effort they put into being in that scene which, as you say, is basically just conforming to something different outside of the mainstream.

in fact most people who don't belong in a scene are happy enough to just float along and just exist and enjoy themselves. isn't that what non conforming is?? not being a part of anything - just simply being you.....

some of the goth/punk/emo's are there live their lifestyle 24/7 which is the definition of conforming to something isn't it??

also i really can't work out what goes through someone's head when it is 30+ degrees outside and they decide to walk around in heavy clothing with jackets and jeans and basically look like they must be completely covered in sweat when they get home.... maybe this is their way of not conforming because they aren't trying to escape the heat like others...

i dunno, but i just don't get the whole thing really. probably never will.

as for you question "ever met anyone like this?" i've met a few just out and about who are friends of friends sort of things. on a personal level they're fine - just the same ratio of ******** you can expect in society.... but i don't have any mates like this because i am (like my close mates) not particularly arsed about these sort of things and can be pretty laxidasical at times. this is kinda the opposite personality of most people within a scene who are usually so keen to constantly portray this image that they seem to rarely let their guard down....

 

[JimDocker]

Excellent OP.

I remember as a teenager - early 80s hanging around in Perth with a few skinheads/mods etc... We were all into The Clash, The Jam, The Specials, Madness etc.

One time, I bought The Billie Holiday Story which was a best of because I had seen Lady Sings the Blues the week before (biopic about Billie Holiday) and also Masterpieces by Bob Dylan - triple album compilation. A few of the lads asked me what I had bought and when I showed them, they asked if they were presents for my parents !!!!!! They were incredulous that I liked music outside of what I was allowed to like. I stopped hanging around them not long after as they seemed to have too many rules which does seem to be pointless when you are trying to rebel.

Since then, I have never really cared what people think about my taste in anything and why I am happy to go to whatever gigs I want to go to and openly admitted to liking country music long before Johnny Cash' Renaissance.

 

[Niximus]

Everybody wants a tribe and wants to feel superior to other tribes.

It's not limited to any culture, subculture or any other way you can divide people up.

How many of these have you heard:

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'science' tells you"

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'the bible' tells you"

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'the media' tells you"

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'the man' tells you"

"You are just sheep who wear what you're told to"

"You are just sheep who think what you're told to"

"Collingwood fans are stupid, my club's fans are the best"

"Your city sucks, the place to be is my city"

 

[The Passenger]

south park parodies sub cultures brilliantly with their emo/goth characters.

 

[Contra Mundum]

A good point.

I think your observations also apply to leftist organisations. During my time on University campus in the UK, I spent quite alot of time fighting and studying the fascinating organism that is leftist student organisations.

Group think permeated those leftist organisations so badly that dissenting opinion was completely outlawed. They all had to subscribe to an ever narrow set of extreme left principles.

It is actually quite hilarious.

You notice the same with any fringe group. People join because they want to be different...but then being different becomes normal for that group, so then to remain in the group its members have to conform...Then with time members get sick of the conformity and start a new splinter group and the process starts again.

Some times its hip to be square.

have you witnessed how the young liberals operate on campus now? It is group think and hagiography that is equivalent to the trots. In my day they were a pack of nerds and rich kids which had a certain humility about it - not so today

 

[Checkers_Nixon]

have you witnessed how the young liberals operate on campus now? It is group think and hagiography that is equivalent to the trots. In my day they were a pack of nerds and rich kids which had a certain humility about it - not so today

You forgot one other category: (1) nerds, (2) rich kids, (3) fat chicks looking for bf.

 

[evo]

Some of your best work checkers. University student lefties make up the biggest set of conformists of all - group think accompanied by an above average IQ is still group think.

Most seem to have identical views to their first year media studies lecturers and still hold those same views unexamined into their 30 and 40s. The only thing that changes is they get a mortgage and switch from Greens to the ALP.

At least being a punk or goth takes a bit of independent thought. Even if they do dress similarly and share music tastes.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

"Punk died the day The Clash signed to CBS."

 

[cancat]

Brian: You're ALL individuals!

Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!

Brian: You're all different!

Crowd: Yes, we ARE all different!

Lone voice in crowd: I'm not...

Crowd: Shhh!

 

[Dry Rot]

Excellent OP.

I remember as a teenager - early 80s hanging around in Perth with a few skinheads/mods etc... We were all into The Clash, The Jam, The Specials, Madness etc.

One time, I bought The Billie Holiday Story which was a best of because I had seen Lady Sings the Blues the week before (biopic about Billie Holiday) and also Masterpieces by Bob Dylan - triple album compilation. A few of the lads asked me what I had bought and when I showed them, they asked if they were presents for my parents !!!!!! They were incredulous that I liked music outside of what I was allowed to like. I stopped hanging around them not long after as they seemed to have too many rules which does seem to be pointless when you are trying to rebel.

Since then, I have never really cared what people think about my taste in anything and why I am happy to go to whatever gigs I want to go to and openly admitted to liking country music long before Johnny Cash' Renaissance.

Saw a hardcore case of this too about the same time with a group of punks. Fundamentally the most conservative group of folk I've seen.

IMO it's a good lesson in life to observe this kind of stuff. Redefines what "conservative" or "conformity" really means.

BTW, good music taste there.

 

[Dry Rot]

Some of your best work checkers. University student lefties make up the biggest set of conformists of all - group think accompanied by an above average IQ is still group think.

Most seem to have identical views to their first year media studies lecturers and still hold those same views unexamined into their 30 and 40s. The only thing that changes is they get a mortgage and switch from Greens to the ALP.

At least being a punk or goth takes a bit of independent thought. Even if they do dress similarly and share music tastes.

They were like that in the late seventies too.

IIRC they were concerned about Fraser (rightfully), apartheid (rightfully, but ignored Fraser's fight against it), whaling (rightfully) and uranium mining, and too thick to realise that beyond the uni campus their views and their battles didn't matter a jot.

I wasn't really political at that time, and me and a mate weren't too popular making stickers saying "Keep whales in the ground".

We hung out with the guys and gals into cool music and the good drug dealers.

 

[Here_we_come]

in fact most people who don't belong in a scene are happy enough to just float along and just exist and enjoy themselves. isn't that what non conforming is?? not being a part of anything - just simply being you.....

This statement has pretty much nailed what a non-conformist really is I reckon. IMO non-conformists don't care about being different, mainstream, or whatever. It doesn't concern them. They just do whatever pleases them personally, irrespective of how they might appear to others. They know that how others perceive them is pretty pointless and irrelevant. As long as they are happy, that's what really matters.

They were incredulous that I liked music outside of what I was allowed to like. I stopped hanging around them not long after as they seemed to have too many rules which does seem to be pointless when you are trying to rebel.

Since then, I have never really cared what people think about my taste in anything and why I am happy to go to whatever gigs I want to go to and openly admitted to liking country music long before Johnny Cash' Renaissance.

I've experienced this before as well. IMO it takes courage to actually come out and embrace something that is considered 'mainstream', because it's quite often seen as the 'uncool' thing to do. The other day, for example, I told someone that I liked a ministry of sound album. He then replied "MOS is soo commerical man..., you should try etc. etc."

I thought, who really gives a s**t? If it sounds good, I'll listen to it.

 

[WCEforeverman]

The most non-conformist people are sociopaths.

 

[kwame]

the thing i don't get with people that belong in a "scene" is the amount of effort they put into being in that scene which, as you say, is basically just conforming to something different outside of the mainstream.

had an ex gf that was pretty prominent in the melbourne punk "scene" led to us breaking up due to her elitist attitude regarding the "scene". she had s**t loads of facebook and myspace friends that she considered close but in reality were acquaintances rather than friends.


what i find ironic about the punk "scene" is these are the people from high school that didnt fit into any groups and hated the popularity chain but then within the punk "scene" they have done the exact same thing

 

[Copernicus]

Great post, and I completely agree. Often these subcultures seem far more narrow in their attitudes and behaviours than all of the 'conformist sheep' in general society. Really, they are just a different kind of sheep. I think they just like to delude themselves that they are really different. The flaw in their logic is pretty obvious.

 

[Pie eyed]

Everybody wants a tribe and wants to feel superior to other tribes.

It's not limited to any culture, subculture or any other way you can divide people up.

How many of these have you heard:

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'science' tells you"

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'the bible' tells you"

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'the media' tells you"

"You are just sheep who believe everything 'the man' tells you"

"You are just sheep who wear what you're told to"

"You are just sheep who think what you're told to"

"Collingwood fans are stupid, my club's fans are the best"

"Your city sucks, the place to be is my city"

You're doing it now.

 

[hot carl]

I remeber about 10 years ago seeing a doco called The Marketing of Cool.
The people in marketinging realised teenagers would follow the 20% of cool kids who stood out from the crowd. They would then use the images of people with piercings,tattoos and pranksters in ads to appeal to boys and ****ty and promiscuous images to appeal to girls.
Basically the marketers knew if they could create a subculture before
the kids knew it was mainstream they could make more money but once something became mainstream they would jump off it and move to the next fad.

 

[Tyler Durden007]

south park parodies sub cultures brilliantly with their emo/goth characters.

Don't they just

I think it was series 13 (one before present) where they lampooned the middle aged Harley rider subculture.

Good OP,

In truth, these subcultures are just a mode of rebellion and attract followers out of the need to belong to something. Humans are a societal species and almost none of us can exist completely alone.

If these subcultures (and I agree they are predominantly leftist as stated earlier) were truly to break away from mainstream society they would divorce themselves from all the conveniences and mod cons of modern life and live completely differently structured lives...

But that'd be just too hard wouldn't it . Which goes to show the hypocrisy of the whole "rebelling" idealism.

 

[Docker Clint]

Express your individuality by following trends.

 

[Chief]

ALL of them.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Ant Nation!

 

[Eagle87]

Not sure that sub-cultures are quite the same. Most people join a sub-culture because they, at some level, reject the societal norms ... they then "grow out of it" and become sheeple like most others... Alternatively, they do it because they don't have the capacity to "succeed" in the world of societal norms... they still "grow out of it" in the main.

True conformists are those who buy into a notion that life involves school, uni (or trade), job, promotions, marriage/long term partner, kids, mortgage, suburbs, annual holiday, retirement, death. Most people live exactly this life. Its the same with variations for income...

Its people who say, **** that and live life on their own terms that are true non-conformists... changing hairstyle, no matter how radically, and listening to certain "alternative" music is just a small detour in a comformist lifestyle for most folk ..

 

[Clay Davis]

Sounds like a prelude to excusing why you chase lady boys.

"... and so by choosing to feel the sweet caress of man-girl, I am a non-conformist."