Brexit - The UK referendum on leaving the EU - Reneging, reshmeging!

[medusala]

Yep, it was one made when we were discussing Aus and he was repeating Labor-criticising catchphrases.

Typical Ratts, pompom waving misology without any attempt to address the issues at hand. Tell me captain genius: with exports to the EU dropping as a % of overall trade and EU share of global trade also falling, why is it a great idea to be stuck in a protection trading block that is the EU replete with massive structural problems?

 

[medusala]

Nonsense. Utter Nonsense. So typical of you when you don't even understand why CAP was introduced.

The CAP was designed to maintain food security. Memories of starvation during WW2 were still strong. "Market" has ****-all to do with it.

Ignorant clown. Do you have any idea re the % of £ goes with respect to farm size? The reason farmers cant make any money is because land prices are so high primarily due to the investor class pumping cash in. Just another area you are clueless on

Are there any limits to the bullshit you talk? They are not western europeans at all. Who is the idiot here???? So young people paying higher taxes, less demanding on NHS/Pension etc, where the ******* problem? is it a problem cause they are Poles? moron

So EEA contrubution is higher than NON EU contribution, which is actually under your control and then you still bitch about EEA migration.

EEA includes western europe. Fail.

 

[Total Power]

Your argument is rubbish. East European immigration does NOT cover the cost of services provided by the govt. Thats why your article is tosh.

That's what the problem is (and the massive strain on services). Its not bloody hard to understand.

LOL oh dear, you are embarrassing yourself now.

FFS how thick can one person be? Freedom of movement gives PREFERENCE TO WHITE PEOPLE OVER COLOURED PEOPLE.

Oh wow, so it's now about race, you bigot, the one who is crying about Pakistani grooming gangs and bengalis in london all the time. LOL

 

[Total Power]

Ignorant clown. Do you have any idea re the % of £ goes with respect to farm size? The reason farmers cant make any money is because land prices are so high primarily due to the investor class pumping cash in. Just another area you are clueless on

Again cherry pick a quote! do you actually ever read the entire post? do you wonder why you continue to embarrass yourself in front of others?

EEA includes western europe. Fail.

Rinse and repeat, same s**t, arguing with you is like arguing to a daft **** , read the article again, ****

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Typical Ratts, pompom waving misology without any attempt to address the issues at hand. Tell me captain genius: with exports to the EU dropping as a % of overall trade and EU share of global trade also falling, why is it a great idea to be stuck in a protection trading block that is the EU replete with massive structural problems?

Surely that's close enough to the Bingo point below to put me onto 4? I just need one more and this will be a record-breaking win.

• suggesting something is "(subject) 101" e.g. Cheerleading 101 Fanboism 101 Muppetry 101 Economics 101 Misology 101 Economic Misology 101 Beads of Scatology 101*

 

[medusala]

Your article was crap. I have repeatedly explained why.

Your only argument seems to be - oh but non Eastern Europe immigration is worse. Hardly a quality argument.

 

[medusala]

Surely that's close enough to the Bingo point below to put me onto 4? I just need one more and this will be a record-breaking win.

Ratts, like a red headed step son, desperately wanting some attention. I bet your mother had to tie chops round your neck when you were a kid.

 

[Total Power]

Your article was crap. I have repeatedly explained why.

Your only argument seems to be - oh but non Eastern Europe immigration is worse. Hardly a quality argument.

My article was spot on, your argument is non-existent bs and when you are exposed you resort to insults. The article clearly stated CENTRAL AND EASTERN european migrants, then your usual trick was "but but but there are other costs of govt services as well"... this is a bunch of bs. Now you say you oppose freedom of movement cause its discrimination LOL, coming from you... so cute LOL

 

[Total Power]

If anyone bothered to read meds argument of the 350/week figure and customs being ready, you know how well educated he is. LOL another uneducated brexiter.

 

[Total Power]

Surely that's close enough to the Bingo point below to put me onto 4? I just need one more and this will be a record-breaking win.

This bingo is spot on it seems. You must add bloody EU in there, thanks

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

This bingo is spot on it seems. You must add bloody EU in there, thanks

I'll get onto it. It's already improving Meds' variety - this one is far more creative:

I bet your mother had to tie chops round your neck when you were a kid.

But of course the downside is it reveals even more of his, ah, 'unconventional' way of thinking...

 

[Total Power]

How much money do British farmers receive from CAP?
The CAP scheme has two main pillars: direct payments, known as the Basic Payment Scheme (BPS), and funding for the wider rural economy. In 2015, UK farmers received almost €3.1bn (£2.4bn) in direct payments, according to the NFU. In total, 55 per cent of UK total income from farming comes from CAP support.

What would happen to CAP when Britain leaves the EU?
That all depends on what – if anything – would replace CAP, which is what farmers have complained is the big unknown. Simply removing CAP support, while it remains in place in the rest of Europe, “could devastate British farming,” Meurig Raymond, the NFU President, told the BBC.

Consultancy Agra Europe suggests land prices could crash and 90 per cent of farmers could go out of business. But advocates of Brexit, such as farming minister George Eustice, insist that Britain can continue providing subsidies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-government-subsidy-equal-to-support-given-b/


Let me know how you plan to support the farms post CAP then. (Waiting for the WTO card to be played LOL)

You deserve to have your markets flooded by shitty US produce full of chemicals and chlorine drenched chickens.

So add another 2 billion in subsidies to the farmers to brexit cost, that is added to 4 billion in customs and 2 billion in immigration/aerospace, thats 8 billion already. Before tarriffs ,Irish border, telecom and a host of other things LOL.

How Brexit looking for you Farage wannabe?

Conveniently how meds ignored everything else i posted here. Everyone else is wrong and he is right, too much daily mail hey meds?

So hey meds, hows the cost of brexit looking for you? the cost pre-tariff and other costs (and ignoring the divorce bill even) is shooting up to 8 billion a year already.

I keep repeating brextiers are uneducated this is the proof, these are not my figures, these are govt estimates.. The customs will alone cost from 4-9 billion a ******* year. Then you have the irish border, aerospace, telecom, farm subsidies and thousands of other things LOL are you this daft?

But all these studies are wrong cause apparently the UK pays 350m/week in your fantasy world. * me.

 

[medusala]

I keep repeating brextiers are uneducated this is the proof, these are not my figures, these are govt estimates.. The customs will alone cost from 4-9 billion a ******* year. Then you have the irish border, aerospace, telecom, farm subsidies and thousands of other things LOL are you this daft?

But all these studies are wrong cause apparently the UK pays 350m/week in your fantasy world. **** me.

Of course there are costs, who denies that? There are massive costs staying in as well. Re customs, as you have been repeatedly told, the EU takes 75-80% of all tariff revenue that the UK earns at present. Post Brexit the UK will not only receive that on good coming in from outside the EU but potentially inside the EU (in your worst case re no frictionless trade). That would more than offset the cost.

Re farm subsidies the vast majority goes to the biggest landholders, you could easily cut CAP payments in half. All these things are solvable.

May as well argue a wife should stay with an abusive husband just because he occasionally pays some rent.

I keep repeating brextiers are uneducated this is the proof, these are not my figures, these are govt estimates.

As was house price drops, immediate recession etc etc.

But all these studies are wrong cause apparently the UK pays 350m/week in your fantasy world. **** me.

Poor boy cant understand gross vs net.

 

[medusala]

My article was spot on, your argument is non-existent bs and when you are exposed you resort to insults. The article clearly stated CENTRAL AND EASTERN european migrants, then your usual trick was "but but but there are other costs of govt services as well"... this is a bunch of bs. Now you say you oppose freedom of movement cause its discrimination LOL, coming from you... so cute LOL

You referred to EEA you dolt.

No, cost of govt services isnt BS. They are CASH costs. Its roughly £9k per person in England IIRC. That figure has to be taken in to account to see whether immigrants are net contributors or not. To ignore it is dishonest.

To pay £9k in tax you have to earn well over what the average eastern european does in the UK

Thus how can you possibly argue they contribute MORE than they cost? The answer is you cant unless you ignore the provision of govt services.

 

[Total Power]

Of course there are costs, who denies that? There are massive costs staying in as well. Re customs, as you have been repeatedly told, the EU takes 75-80% of all tariff revenue that the UK earns at present. Post Brexit the UK will not only receive that on good coming in from outside the EU but potentially inside the EU (in your worst case re no frictionless trade). That would more than offset the cost.

UK imports a lot more than they EU to the EU. How much would these 75% tariff that the EU take amount to be? Assuming, UK exports to EU is 30 billion and import is 60 billion how much do you think you can "gain" from the tariff you are talking about? The comes NON EU. EU tariffs are anywhere between 0 to 4 percent (mostly) Customs alone is going to cost 4-9 billion, then there is aerospace which is 2 billion. That means that alone is close to 10 billion if you add the Irish border. So how much are you going to cover from the "tariff", show me some of your "math".

Re farm subsidies the vast majority goes to the biggest landholders, you could easily cut CAP payments in half. All these things are solvable.

So what happens to the farmers who are dependent on these subsidies? how are you going to replace that considering 55 percent of UK farm income come from CAP? I agree with you regarding CAP and land prices but i disagree with you simply cause there is food safety issue. You scrap CAP you need to have your own subsidy programs which will cost you a lot more than 2 billion/year. More costs to brexit.

Poor boy cant understand gross vs net.

You don't understand what "cost to company" is. The rebates are actually applied properly, your whole argument is based on EU threatening to withhold the rebate from 2014 onwards etc. Poor argument, the net figure is 260m/week, accepted by all other than daily mail readers.

 

[medusala]

UK imports a lot more than they EU to the EU. How much would these 75% tariff that the EU take amount to be? Assuming, UK exports to EU is 30 billion and import is 60 billion how much do you think you can "gain" from the tariff you are talking about? Customs alone is going to cost 4-9 billion, then there is aerospace which is 2 billion. That means that alone is close to 10 billion if you add the Irish border. So how much are you going to cover from the "tariff", show me some of your "math"..

That will depend on what trade deal is done. The UK could of course unilaterally scrap tariffs and receive no income but cant see them doing it. Your customs cost is based on a negative and uncertain scenario. What is known is that instead of taking 25% the UK will now receive 100% of customs duties.

So what happens to the farmers who are dependent on these subsidies?

You can either scrap it completely or put a cap on it. The latter is most likely.

You don't understand what "cost to company" is. The rebates are actually applied properly, your whole argument is based on EU threatening to withhold the rebate from 2014 onwards etc. Poor argument, the net figure is 260m/week, accepted by all other than daily mail readers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...d-britains-budget-rebate-brexit-bill-wrangle/

Senior British sources said that 
negotiations over the bill, which the EU sets at €60 billion (£53.6 billion), had still not settled whether the UK would receive the €5 billion (£4.46 billion) payment as part of the final settlement when it leaves the EU in March 2019.

“There is a problem here, and the issue over whether the EU will pay us the 2018 rebate has not been resolved,” the source in Whitehall confirmed.

 

[medusala]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rope-cost-the-british-taxpayer-3m-a-day-last/

European immigrants to Britain cost the taxpayer £3 million a day last year, according to a new analysis.

MigrationWatch UK, which campaigns for tougher border controls, said the overall cost of immigration from Europe – including recent arrivals and those who have lived here many decades - was £1.2 billion last year.

The sum was calculated by deducting the cost of benefits and public services, such as the NHS, which were consumed by migrants from the amount of money they contributed to the Exchequer through tax.

Last year migrants from all parts of the world cost the British Exchequer £17 billion, or £46.5 million a day, reflecting the fact that migrants who arrived in the 1960s, for example, are now pensioners with greater healthcare costs.

 

[Total Power]

You referred to EEA you dolt.

LOL this is why i think you are daft. I specially mentioned CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPEAN migrants in the comment too, which you convinently ignroed. Can you please atleast read my posts in full before hitting the reply button, its not too much to ask for

Professor Christian Dustmann of University College London has found that between 2001 and 2011, the net fiscal contribution of migrants from the ten central and eastern European countries that joined the EU in 2004 or 2007 was almost £5 billion. Over the same period, British citizens received more in public spending than they paid in tax.

Can you read now??? central europe excludes western europe.

No, cost of govt services isnt BS. They are CASH costs. Its roughly £9k per person in England IIRC. That figure has to be taken in to account to see whether immigrants are net contributors or not. To ignore it is dishonest.

Even if i discount my studies, your scare mongering is ***** .Also what about non-cash contributions? charities? blood donations? volunteering? so how do you compute these???? picking a figure from daily mail or breitbart is not going to be sufficient.

https://news.sky.com/story/polish-migrants-highlight-contribution-to-uk-10348838

https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

Non-cash services apply to british people or NON EU migrants too. Why is it a "scale" for EEA migrants only? we can quantify cash effect of migrants and this is a good measure of a contribution a person makes. For example, i have my friend from Slovakia, who teaches English to mentally challenged kids without money. Can you quantify that? ofcourse you can't , it would be wrong to put a number to a bottle of blood that i have donated, if you are going to value non-cash services provided by the government please be aware

1. these are applicable to NON EEA/ Natives as well
2. Account for the non-cash contributions they make as well.

But you are not going to do that, you are going off on a tangent about how Poles are such a big problem ignoring that the biggest DRAIN ON CASH FINANCES in the UK are natives and then NON EU (Per capita) first.

To pay £9k in tax you have to earn well over what the average eastern european does in the UK

Thus how can you possibly argue they contribute MORE than they cost? The answer is you cant unless you ignore the provision of govt services.

cause you cannot value non cash services, i explained to you above. If you are going to value non cash expenses, you also have to factor in the above.

Here is an example why your non cash figures are Fraudulent:

“European immigrants endowed the UK labour market with human capital that would have cost £14 billion if it were produced through the British education system”. Instead, we got others to do the teaching for us, and reaped the rewards – even if the jobs we gave the arrivals, such as bartending or waitressing, were far below their competence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html

Are you going to count such non-cash expenses as well? i bet not. Hence we can only quantify what we can. Hence my figures are 100 percent, Central and Eastern european migrants are less of a burden than NON EEA/Native ones as far as cash expenses go. As far as non-cash go, i look forward to your "methodology" in computing taking into consideration what i said above.

But even taking your 9,000/pp figure above, 3 million * 9,000 = 27 billion.

Now take 20 billion (cash effect) + 14 billion (non cash effect) = 34 billion. There is still a surplus.

Using your methodology is impossible to compute, but i am playing along with you.

Now i wait for you to revert to "but but but Western Europeans" argument now.

 

[Total Power]

That will depend on what trade deal is done. The UK could of course unilaterally scrap tariffs and receive no income but cant see them doing it. Your customs cost is based on a negative and uncertain scenario. What is known is that instead of taking 25% the UK will now receive 100% of customs duties.

What? my customs cost is based on uncertain scenario? I am giving you 4 billion the bottom end of the scale. If you make a tariff free deal with EU then i am happy with that, then free movement remains and you guys lose and it's no brexit at all, IF there is no tariff free deal then?

The report describes the task facing government of implementing new customs arrangements by Brexit day in March 2019 as "huge" and suggests changes will have to be made to over 30 government bodies and 100 local authorities.

The study also claims that "there is a cliff edge at the other side of the English Channel too" with Brexit impacting European ports such as Calais or Rotterdam, which could cause massive disruption to trade into the UK.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-leaving-eu-customs-union-could-cost-uk-4-billion-a-year-2017-9



My customs cost is based on all studies. Anyway, you are not answering my question assuming the current figures remain how much is UK ripped off from that? lets take the 30 billion figure and lets say the duty is around 4%, so 75% of the 4%, how much will that be? and how much will customs cost??? math fail.

Then farm subsidies? aerosspace? telecom? and 100s of different certifying agencies? you think its all so easy isnt it?


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

 

[Total Power]

https://home.kpmg.com/content/dam/k...heresa-may-can-navigate-customs-conundrum.pdf

This is a brilliant article from KPMG stating why customs union is so important. I guess they are clueless too hey meds? KPMG has some good ideas, but EU hold the cards. Let's see what kinda solution UK comes up with. If i am a betting man i will bet my house on freedom of movement to remain, which means no brexit. Instead you will be out of the customs union paying for Free trade norway style and you will have no say in it. I hope this happens.! and then before you blame May, blame Nigel, he resigned cause he knows they will send him to the frontline, he has no balls

 

[Total Power]

Poor boy cant understand gross vs net.

You obviously don't understand how statistics work, drop the 350/figure, you are really embarrassing yourself now. This is well explained by UK statistics authority

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov...ir-Andrew-Dilnot-to-Norman-Lamb-MP-210416.pdf

So you are telling me you understand more stats than UK stats authority? you take yourself too seriously i assume? the whole UK trade dealings is clearly mentioned in the last page. The cost to UK is 9 billion a year. And your costs post brexit, just border/customs and aerospace management will be more than that. I provided stats, you can play along with terminologies, but those are the facts.

Now you will say your real salary is your gross salary, who actually counts their salary as "gross"? as if the you can avoid the deductions? I posted you the figures, those are the NET figures which UK paid to EU. Any other figure is irrelevant. Brexit costs are already higher than what you pay to the EU and thats only including the customs, immigration/border issues and aero-space.

As i said to you above you simply don't understand the work UK needs to put in and the costs involved. You think its all READY and the costs will be a few million only. You are detached from the real world.

Here is a summary on just airline safety:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

 

[MaddAdam]

As the truly hateful Michael Gove put it during the lead up to the vote, people are sick of hearing from experts. Facts and figures don't really matter at this stage, and never really did - Brexit was always about emotion.

Even the one number Leave did bandy about - the 350m a week for the NHS - was about tapping into the deep positive feelings the average Brit has for the NHS.

I'm currently reading Tim Shipman's brilliant All Out War, which is an excellent account of the vote and the lead up. Would recommend to anyone interested in this.

 

[Total Power]

As the truly hateful Michael Gove put it during the lead up to the vote, people are sick of hearing from experts. Facts and figures don't really matter at this stage, and never really did - Brexit was always about emotion.

Even the one number Leave did bandy about - the 350m a week for the NHS - was about tapping into the deep positive feelings the average Brit has for the NHS.

I'm currently reading Tim Shipman's brilliant All Out War, which is an excellent account of the vote and the lead up. Would recommend to anyone interested in this.

It was always about migrants and they are taking our jobs. Migrants are stealing our money our jobs and our women. We can dress it up anyway you want but that's the key point, those brown bastards coming here and taking our jobs.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

It was always about migrants and they are taking our jobs. Migrants are stealing our money our jobs and our women. We can dress it up anyway you want but that's the key point, those brown bastards coming here and taking our jobs.

The same main reason Trump won. But we shouldn't ignore the fact they also had to lie copiously about immigration and other things at the same time. Nor ignore that the often-complained-about Poles weren't really traditionally 'brown'. It would be an interesting test to see how anti-immigration sentiment splits between visual difference, vocal difference (accent/LOTE), cultural difference or combinations within.

 

[Total Power]

The same main reason Trump won. But we shouldn't ignore the fact they also had to lie copiously about immigration and other things at the same time. Nor ignore that the often-complained-about Poles weren't really traditionally 'brown'. It would be an interesting test to see how anti-immigration sentiment splits between visual difference, vocal difference (accent/LOTE), cultural difference or combinations within.

I would say the Eastern Europeans are in the same boat as Pakistanis, they are heavily discriminated in Western Europe. I have an office in Zurich, and everytime there is a theft in the building, the first question people ask is about the Romanians there. Turns out most of the time its the Germans who broke in, nevertheless the assumption everytime is its the Romanians no matter how many times they were proven wrong