Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Lunchtime]

He only played good finals for 4 years, when he was at his absolute peak along with the Tiges

Guys like Sidebottom and Pendles have been playing good finals for 15+ years ie their entire careers

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Steele Sidebottom - Finals (26 games)
Average Possessions: 22.04
Average Goals: 0.4 (12 goals)
Average Tackles: 4.5 (117 tackles)
Average Marks: 5.5 (145 marks)
Goal Assists: 0.4 (14 goal assists)

Scott Pendlebury - Finals (31 games)
Average Possessions: 23.9
Average Goals: 0.2 (9 goals)
Average Tackles: 4.9 (154 tackles)
Average Marks: 3.1 (98 marks)
Goal Assists: 0.4 (15 goal assists)

Dustin Martin - Finals (16 games)
Average Possessions: 22.0
Average Goals: 1.6 (27 goals)
Average Tackles: 1.9 (31 tackles)
Average Marks: 2.7 (44 marks)
Goal Assists: 1.1 (18 goal assists)

 

[PhatBoy]

He only played good finals for 4 years, when he was at his absolute peak along with the Tiges

Guys like Sidebottom and Pendles have been playing good finals for 15+ years ie their entire careers

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Steve Johnson. Averaged 20 touches, 1.7 goals, 3 tackles, .75 goal assists, and spread it out over 26 finals across 14 seasons. In his first finals series debuted with a 22 and 2 game, signed off in his penultimate final 14 seasons later with a 6 goal game

 

[Lunchtime]

Steve Johnson. Averaged 20 touches, 1.7 goals, 3 tackles, .75 goal assists, and spread it out over 26 finals across 14 seasons. In his first finals series debuted with a 22 and 2 game, signed off in his penultimate final 14 seasons later with a 6 goal game

There's a fair argument that Steve Johnson was a better Finals player than Pendlebury and Sidebottom, the main reason being was that like Martin, Johnson was an impact player. Good player he was - I enjoyed watching him.

 

[db26]

Could never manage to maintain it over a full season though, and given that H&A games make up 95.5% of Martin’s career so far, I’d say that’s a big reason why he’s not close to being the GOAT. Ablett Jnr for example had multiple full seasons averaging at least 22 disposals and 1.6 goals per game. He actually had two averaging at least 1.6 goals and 30+ possessions! even Dangerfield has done 22 & 1.6 twice over full seasons.

You lost me at Dangerfield to even mention his name with Martin and Ablett .

 

[db26]

He's only played 16 finals which is a very small sample size, and nearly all of those for a top 2 club

Jury is out as to whether he's a consistent finals player, we'll never know

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Loool your living in fairyland.

 

[db26]

Fixed for you.

The greatest to play the game don't come with qualifiers for why they weren't actually that great for significant parts of their career.

No need to be fixed because his achievements say it all. What a load of crap he wasn't that great for significant parts of his career.

 

[PhatBoy]

No need to be fixed because his achievements say it all. What a load of crap he wasn't that great for significant parts of his career.

Disprove it.

I’m neither here nor there on what that means in the grand scheme of things but as a statement on its own it’s fairly straightforward

 

[Mr Meow]

He was also drafted in 2009 but did not get his first AA until 2016, so he didn't really develop all that quickly either.

A 5 year window for All Australian selections that covers the period he was elite in. In 2 of those seasons, the elite status was consolidated with great finals series (it was borderline until then - fringe of AA selection). In 2017 and 2018 he already had fantastic H&A seasons before he got to finals.

There's a fair argument that Steve Johnson was a better Finals player than Pendlebury and Sidebottom, the main reason being was that like Martin, Johnson was an impact player. Good player he was - I enjoyed watching him.

The spreading over a lot of finals series is a big factor too. Martin's averages are brought way up by his best 3 finals series as he actually didn't play that many finals compared to a lot of the modern greats. And he was rotated forward a lot more in those than conventional midfielders. He still did a stunning job but the averages don't look so great if you contain them to the 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022 finals series where he was mostly NOT in the dominant side in the league (2018 you can argue they were until finals) - i.e 5 out of his 8 finals series in his career.

 

[Mr Meow]

No need to be fixed because his achievements say it all. What a load of crap he wasn't that great for significant parts of his career.

It's better to just say 2017-2020 was the best finals stretch of a player in the AFL era. Rather than the whole "undisputed greatest finals player in VFL/AFL history". Because he has these caveats:

-Never had a great finals series outside of a premiership year
-Never had a fantastic game in a losing final
-Was in the best handful of players on the ground in a final in only 4 different seasons (2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 - one continuous 4 year period)
-No strong finals as a youngster (24 or under) or a veteran (30 or over)
-His best work irrefutably came when his side was the dominant finals side of its era. In any other situation, there was a big drop off

Something like "most influential player during a side's dynasty?" Now that's something there is real evidence for. But greatest of all time discussions and such there is too much missing including a fairly condensed elite period (2016-2020). He has excuses for his peak being cut short, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that the missing elite seasons after he turned 30 are still there.

 

[Lunchtime]

A 5 year window for All Australian selections that covers the period he was elite in. In 2 of those seasons, the elite status was consolidated with great finals series (it was borderline until then - fringe of AA selection). In 2017 and 2018 he already had fantastic H&A seasons before he got to finals.

The spreading over a lot of finals series is a big factor too. Martin's averages are brought way up by his best 3 finals series as he actually didn't play that many finals compared to a lot of the modern greats. And he was rotated forward a lot more in those than conventional midfielders. He still did a stunning job but the averages don't look so great if you contain them to the 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022 finals series where he was mostly NOT in the dominant side in the league (2018 you can argue they were until finals) - i.e 5 out of his 8 finals series in his career.

Why the need to cherry pick certain games? All players have good games in Finals games and quiet games in Finals games - this applies to Martin.....and every other player. That's why averages are a good indicator.

 

[Sttew]

You lost me at Dangerfield to even mention his name with Martin and Ablett .

And yet here you are mentioning Dusty's name with GAJ

 

[Mr Meow]

Why the need to cherry pick certain games? All players have good games in Finals games and quiet games in Finals games - this applies to Martin.....and every other player. That's why averages are a good indicator.

10 of Martin's 16 career finals came in premiership years, contained to 3 seasons. That is a whopping 63%. If you look at those games they heavily, heavily skew the averages. His averages are basically protected by not having to play many finals 2011-2016 or 2021-2024. Throw another 24 finals in those years and of course his stunning averages would decline. It's common sense.

Selwood even won an extra premiership yet still only 30% of his finals (12 out of 40) were in premiership seasons where his side was the dominant one. He played many finals as a kid in a periphery role, as an emerging star, in his peak in a great side, in his peak in a decent-ish but not dominant side (2012-2016) and as a veteran in sides of varying quality (2017-2022). Many of the modern champs have similar spreads.

It's fine to say Martin's peak finals period was better than any of those players peak finals period i.e best 4 year run. But it's lazy to say he was a much better finals player overall when 5 of his 8 finals series he was still poor, a non-factor or average at best. He just had 3 insanely good finals series when his side was dominant and he was at his peak.

 

[RUNVS]

And yet here you are mentioning Dusty's name with GAJ

and the thing is, when there have been polls asking who is the best midfielder of the 21st century Ablett Jnr doesn't just win by a bit, he wins by a lot every single time. It isn't even close. Only the most rabid Richmond fans (and one Hawthorn fan for some reason) believe Martin is the best midfielder of the 21st century. 80% or more of the general bigfooty community picks Ablett.

 

[JackOutback]

and the thing is, when there have been polls asking who is the best midfielder of the 21st century Ablett Jnr doesn't just win by a bit, he wins by a lot every single time. It isn't even close. Only the most rabid Richmond fans (and one Hawthorn fan for some reason) believe Martin is the best midfielder of the 21st century. 80% or more of the general bigfooty community picks Ablett.

And the other 20 per cent pick Judd. Martin not in the conversation.

 

[kidkenobi]

So Dangerfield is better than Martin?

Well at the very least in this regard which you highlighted then yes, he’s objectively better than Martin. You said averaging 22 disposals and 1.6 goals as a midfielder was very very good, I pointed out that Danger did it twice over full seasons compared to Martin’s 0, GAJ even further ahead of both of them.

 

[Glorfindel]

no goodes?

Drafted in the 20th century
(As was Scarlett so shouldn’t be on the list).

 

[Lyttelton Ranger]

If Yze can put Dustin in the goal sqare all game, Dustin can do what Leigh Mathews did.

Break someone's jaw? No I don't think Dusty has that in him

 

[Caesarr]

Martin was the best finals player from 2010-20. I dont think anyone could doubt that. JPK probably runs him the closest over that period. Selwood/Pendlebury were also massive in this period.

 

[Gavin Excell]

and the thing is, when there have been polls asking who is the best midfielder of the 21st century Ablett Jnr doesn't just win by a bit, he wins by a lot every single time. It isn't even close. Only the most rabid Richmond fans (and one Hawthorn fan for some reason) believe Martin is the best midfielder of the 21st century. 80% or more of the general bigfooty community picks Ablett.

Richmond fans have not only deserted attending games, they've deserted Bigfooty

 

[Wosh]

The King is Dead
Long Live The King







He’s 19 lol

 

[STPer18]

Dustin crawled so Harley could run.

 

[marcus1232]

Surely its time.
Someone start the Can Harley Reid be the GOAT thread please

 

[Wosh]

Surely its time.
Someone start the Can Harley Reid be the GOAT thread please

This thread is sufficient

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/harley-reid-isnt-leading-the-rising-star-so-far.1379444/

I think every footy lover appreciates a genuine talent and in his day I watched Richmond games just for Dusty because he was so incredibly good and incredibly entertaining. No one changed a game like Dusty when he put his afterburners on. Harley is still a baby but I doubt anyone could deny he is a pip to watch already.

 

[My Tilly]

Overrated footballer who briefly rose to the top during the weakest era of the 2010's.

Gifted a Norm Smith medal and another in a State of Origin game




Bloke is now shown up to be nothing more than the icing on the cake.
19 disposals & 0.5 goals per game .....

 

[nut]

Goat still doing goat things