Carlton's list

[The Old Dark Navy's]

This is exactly what I was saying. Yes he played, but those stats surely wouldn't have much of an 'accumulation effect'.

The 2 goals making up 22 for the year would have an effect. Lead Dempster a merry dance in the first quarter, injured in the third. It's probably more that he hits his targets, and looks good with the ball. There was also a groundswell of opinion that it would be unfair for him not to get one this year. Kicked the winner against West Coast, has kicked 2 and 3 goals a few times. If his shoulder is right and he says it is, he'll kick over 30 goals this year and be our leading goalkicker ... at 19 in his second season. Deserves to be recognised even if he can't win the award overall.

Carlton have had some ordinary rising star nominees in their history. Menz looks to be a future gun. It will be nice looking back at the 2014 nominees and seeing his humble beginnings.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

more and more confident that this year is just an aberration and next year the blues will be again challenging for the flag

casboult, kreuzer, henderson, rowe, jamison, white, warnock .... big men tick

buckley, menzel, cripps, yarran + another top 10 pick .... super young talent tick

everitt, docherty, ... smart recruiting tick

murphy, judd, gibbs, simpson, curnow, thomas .... midfield depth tick

 

[thetradesman]

Carlton supporters stick up for their team which is good, but honestly!

Won't be challenging for a flag for at least 3 - 4 years.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

Carlton supporters stick up for their team which is good, but honestly!

Won't be challenging for a flag for at least 3 - 4 years.

The problem with Carlton supporters, especially those posting here, is that they are utterly blinkered and have zero capability of looking at things impartially, hence have no credibility.

Then there are those who simply write the team and coach off entirely - which is also absolutely ridiculous.

The reality is quite simple - THUS FAR Mick has categorically failed in what he was hired to do, set out to do, and claimed he would do. He either failed miserably in his assessment of the list, or his ability. You can not claim to be successful until you are. You can not claim to be successful when you set out to win a flag and finish up almost last. PERIOD.

Further the assessment of Carlton players is quite simple - Casboult was a walking disaster who could take marks. He was kicking less than a goal a game, and has TWO - again - TWO good games. This has given great confidence to many - but these were against severely depleted sides, if not the worst side in the comp - Saints. He is no Cloke, Brown, Roughy, Buddy, Pavlich - he isn't their bum wipe. He looks bloody promising, but promising is still not Pavlich is it.

Then there are those talking up Cripps, Graham and all manner of complete unknowns. Astonishing - just stupid. When they have also shown what they are we can claim them to be that - until then they have the same form as any other total noob with zero credibility. That's a fact.

Kruezer has shown himself to be injury prone and absolutely unreliable in any future planning. The odds are that he will injure himself, don't blame me, don't deny it, those are the odds, those are the stats, those are the facts.

Having said that - Carlton has fantastic potential, awesome potential and denying that is just insidiously stupid. Mick is the most experience coach in the league, almost AFL history - right now he is performing badly - however to write him off would be idiotic. He is only 60 - he is not stupid, and he has plenty of support. So, right now - bad, can he turn around absolutely, will he WHO KNOWS. Is it Rattens fault, just stupid.

The assessment by The Blue Baggers hits the nail on the head -

casboult, kreuzer, henderson, rowe, jamison, white, warnock .... big men tick

buckley, menzel, cripps, yarran + another top 10 pick .... super young talent tick

everitt, docherty, ... smart recruiting tick

murphy, judd, gibbs, simpson, curnow, thomas .... midfield depth tick

I would add in there W(bl)ayne Johnson - who I think is showing great POTENTIAL.

Graham has been named so people should take a look -

Cripps will be back soon, seemed totally fine last week - so we will get another look there.

Can Carlton win a flag over the next year or two - yes. We almost knocked off Hawks at their peak last few outings, similar with Geelong and almost anyone else. Our problem has been consistency - and that was revolving around our troubles with key position players (Henderson, Waite, Rowe, Watson, Casboult, etc) whenever this is settled we perform well.

Throwing white forward appears to be the final straw - I like others would like to see Watson tried further forward using his great marking and penetrating kicking ability to be used across mid-half forward to feed Casboult and White. This is also Waites best position - he plays superbly on the wings.

TL;DR Carlton is a team full of potential - it has no claims to that potential but should not be written off.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

I like others would like to see Watson tried further forward using his great marking and penetrating kicking.

Watson gets torched in the backline because he's too slow to keep up with leading players, so how is he going to be able to get the separation needed to be a leading forward?

I say leading forward because he'd have no chance as a body-on-body forward. He's even more famous in the VFL for his lack of physicality than he is for his turning circle.

I think it's time we just accepted that this is (another) wasted top 20 pick, and move on.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

Watson gets torched in the backline because he's too slow to keep up with leading players, so how is he going to be able to get the separation needed to be a leading forward?

I say leading forward because he'd have no chance as a body-on-body forward. He's even more famous in the VFL for his lack of physicality than he is for his turning circle.

I think it's time we just accepted that this is (another) wasted top 20 pick, and move on.

And who suggested he was a lead up forward ? No one. You did - because you are not interested in discovery - you are more interested in making something up and proving yourself right, no matter how irrelevant it is to the conversation at hand.

He played ONE game and was put one on one, with no support, against the best forward line in the comp - Hawthorn. It was one of the greatest coaching failures in modern history. An absolute disgrace designed PURELY to humiliate him.

 

[Remon Tea]

And who suggested he was a lead up forward ? No one. You did - because you are not interested in discovery - you are more interested in making something up and proving yourself right, no matter how irrelevant it is to the conversation at hand.

He played ONE game and was put one on one, with no support, against the best forward line in the comp - Hawthorn. It was one of the greatest coaching failures in modern history. An absolute disgrace designed PURELY to humiliate him.

That has to be one of the greatest over-exaggerations in modern history.

To be fair, Watson is still relatively young, but so far hasn't shown anything worth his draft position.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

And who suggested he was a lead up forward ? You did - because you are not interested in discovery.

Well, you suggested we play him as a forward. If we don't use him in a lead up role, then what will he be doing forward? As mentioned earlier, he's not suited to a one-out role. You don't seem to want him on the lead up the ground.

So if he's not doing either of those things, what's left for him up forward? Crumbing role maybe?

You talk about discovery, what haven't our staff discovered about him in the four years he's been on our list? He didn't just suddenly play ONE career-ruining game. He's played 18 games - that's almost a season's worth - and plenty of VFL and sadly has shown very little to suggest he can make it at the top level.

 

[etsal1]

Well, you suggested we play him as a forward. If we don't use him in a lead up role, then what will he be doing forward? As mentioned earlier, he's not suited to a one-out role. You don't seem to want him on the lead up the ground.

So if he's not doing either of those things, what's left for him up forward? Crumbing role maybe?

You talk about discovery, what haven't our staff discovered about him in the four years he's been on our list? He didn't just suddenly play ONE career-ruining game. He's played 18 games - that's almost a season's worth - and plenty of VFL and sadly has shown very little to suggest he can make it at the top level.

Kicked 3 goals in VFL last week on Nick Maxwell. However, I'm not sure who that says more about, Nick or Watson?

 

[Old Dark Blues]

Well, you suggested we play him as a forward. If we don't use him in a lead up role, then what will he be doing forward? As mentioned earlier, he's not suited to a one-out role. You don't seem to want him on the lead up the ground.

So if he's not doing either of those things, what's left for him up forward? Crumbing role maybe?

You talk about discovery, what haven't our staff discovered about him in the four years he's been on our list? He didn't just suddenly play ONE career-ruining game. He's played 18 games - that's almost a season's worth - and plenty of VFL and sadly has shown very little to suggest he can make it at the top level.

How about you READ what I wrote -

"I like others would like to see Watson tried further forward using his great marking and penetrating kicking ability to be used across mid-half forward to feed Casboult and White. This is also Waites best position - he plays superbly on the wings."

Nothing to do with wherever you are wandering off too.

Secondly he was put forward and did really well, he missed his only shot on goal and was dragged - incredibly poor coaching performance.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

That has to be one of the greatest over-exaggerations in modern history.

To be fair, Watson is still relatively young, but so far hasn't shown anything worth his draft position.

I honestly can't think of any - maybe putting Fevola on Fraser Gherig ?

It really was deplorable and revealed Micks penchant for punishing players he simply takes a dislike too. Shocking stuff.

Threw him forward where he took a mark and in a game where almost no Carlton players kicked a goal, Watson missed and was dragged. I seriously do not think Mick could have done anything more to deliberately savage a young guys confidence.

As mentioned - apparantly he kicked 3 goals in the reserves last week - on Maxwell - just waiting for KnaveyBlue to get back on the issue.

 

[Pie in the Sky]

Think you'll find two of Watson's goals came after Maxwell was taken off.

 

[Fadge]

The 2 goals making up 22 for the year would have an effect. Lead Dempster a merry dance in the first quarter, injured in the third. It's probably more that he hits his targets, and looks good with the ball. There was also a groundswell of opinion that it would be unfair for him not to get one this year. Kicked the winner against West Coast, has kicked 2 and 3 goals a few times. If his shoulder is right and he says it is, he'll kick over 30 goals this year and be our leading goalkicker ... at 19 in his second season. Deserves to be recognised even if he can't win the award overall.

Carlton have had some ordinary rising star nominees in their history. Menz looks to be a future gun. It will be nice looking back at the 2014 nominees and seeing his humble beginnings.

Just in case you didn't know, Betts has kicked 33 goals this season before this round...

 

[etsal1]

Just in case you didn't know, Betts has kicked 33 goals this season before this round...

He's also on 500k more than Menzel.

 

[Fadge]

He's also on 500k more than Menzel.

But not as much as Thomas?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Just in case you didn't know, Betts has kicked 33 goals this season before this round...

Was there a point there somewhere? I'm more aware of what Betts does and has done than you are. Has been underrated for years ... until he went to the Crows and became an instant star. Kicked 20 goals in his second season ... just in case you didn't know.

 

[etsal1]

But not as much as Thomas?

Relevance?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Relevance?

Who needs relevance? Obviously someone would quote a post about Menzel with an obscure Betts remark in order to set up a Betts v Thomas shot in the next post. It just makes sense.

 

[Freomaniac]

Sorry Harker - but this is my ENTIRE GRIPE - no one wants to rip into Malthouse - he has an outstanding career, nor Ratten and certainly not the players.

You hang around with them and you feel terrible knowing what someone has posted about them.

However the point is that there is ENTIRELY no honest discussion regarding Carlton - none.

We are NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO DISCUSS what is being discussed on Carltons board on other boards - can you believe that ?

Right now the belief is that Mick had one of the great AFL coaching tenures at Collingwood - the guy had one flag in over a decade. He had an incredible list at the Eagles - you would be hard pressed NOT to have won a flag with that list - between Doggies, Pies, and Blues he's won ONE FLAG in 20 years of coaching.


No - seriously - 20 years between those three clubs.

His entire MYSTIQUE comes from his tenure at the Weagles when he walked into a club with the players like Brennan, Lamb, Lewis, Mainwaring, Worsfold, Hart, Langdon, McKenna, Waterman, Pyke, Sumich, Kemp, Matera, Wilson, Heady etc, etc already there - set to go....

His coaching record between those three clubs is 52-53% - that puts him around Neil Craig, Ayres, Connolly or Eade.

His coaching record at Pies was around 51% That puts him about even with Ratten.

That's it. The West Coast years at around 64% - when he walked into one of the greatest playing teams ever assembled distort his entire career. Massively. It is an outlying extremity which in any statistical analysis would be adjusted out.

Footscray was again around 49% - same as at Carlton, same as at Collingwood.

West Coast was an anomaly to the rest of his career. Take this extremity out of the equation, and his record is incredibly dodgey -poor. Around the Mark Bickley level - no I'm not even kidding - that's where he is at.

Theres a big differences when Malthouse Coached all 4 of those clubs...

When Malthouse coached his 1st team, the bulldogs, he was there for 6 years (1984-1989) and only 1 season he got them to finals and that was a Prelim in 1985. Most AFL Coaches would not survive 6 seasons if they only had finals on one season. Give Malthouse credit, he did well with lacke of financial resources and lack of quality players.

Then he headed to West coast... I agree, it was the Equivalent on Coaching the Brisbane Broncos in the NRL... It was a 1 team state, but he Had access to many WA talent. Unlike coaching a Victorian side, where your getting local talent and competing against 9 or 10 other clubs for that local talent. Eagles had the team and the money to get that sucess in the 1990s. Not surprising the eagles had 10 straight years of finals in that 1990 to 1999 period.

Collingwood was different... They were struggling financially at first. They did make the 2002 grand final, which not too many predicted then made 2003 and had a chance to Beat the lions. They even beat the lions in the Qualifying final that year. Then they had the rebuild in 2004-5 then played finals and eventually got the flag in 2010.

Then we go to Carlton... Carlton seemed to have a good team in that 2009-2011 period as they made finals then. The Malthouse came in 2013 to see if he could guide them to more success. Turns out Carlton need a clean out of players. I reckon the current Carlton list is like Collingwood of 2004-5: Malthouse needs to rebuild the club, but he needs the right people to push them back up the ladder.

 

[Freomaniac]

The problem with Carlton supporters, especially those posting here, is that they are utterly blinkered and have zero capability of looking at things impartially, hence have no credibility.

Then there are those who simply write the team and coach off entirely - which is also absolutely ridiculous.

The reality is quite simple - THUS FAR Mick has categorically failed in what he was hired to do, set out to do, and claimed he would do. He either failed miserably in his assessment of the list, or his ability. You can not claim to be successful until you are. You can not claim to be successful when you set out to win a flag and finish up almost last. PERIOD.

Further the assessment of Carlton players is quite simple - Casboult was a walking disaster who could take marks. He was kicking less than a goal a game, and has TWO - again - TWO good games. This has given great confidence to many - but these were against severely depleted sides, if not the worst side in the comp - Saints. He is no Cloke, Brown, Roughy, Buddy, Pavlich - he isn't their bum wipe. He looks bloody promising, but promising is still not Pavlich is it.

Then there are those talking up Cripps, Graham and all manner of complete unknowns. Astonishing - just stupid. When they have also shown what they are we can claim them to be that - until then they have the same form as any other total noob with zero credibility. That's a fact.

Kruezer has shown himself to be injury prone and absolutely unreliable in any future planning. The odds are that he will injure himself, don't blame me, don't deny it, those are the odds, those are the stats, those are the facts.

Having said that - Carlton has fantastic potential, awesome potential and denying that is just insidiously stupid. Mick is the most experience coach in the league, almost AFL history - right now he is performing badly - however to write him off would be idiotic. He is only 60 - he is not stupid, and he has plenty of support. So, right now - bad, can he turn around absolutely, will he WHO KNOWS. Is it Rattens fault, just stupid.

The assessment by The Blue Baggers hits the nail on the head -

casboult, kreuzer, henderson, rowe, jamison, white, warnock .... big men tick

buckley, menzel, cripps, yarran + another top 10 pick .... super young talent tick

everitt, docherty, ... smart recruiting tick

murphy, judd, gibbs, simpson, curnow, thomas .... midfield depth tick

I would add in there W(bl)ayne Johnson - who I think is showing great POTENTIAL.

Graham has been named so people should take a look -

Cripps will be back soon, seemed totally fine last week - so we will get another look there.

Can Carlton win a flag over the next year or two - yes. We almost knocked off Hawks at their peak last few outings, similar with Geelong and almost anyone else. Our problem has been consistency - and that was revolving around our troubles with key position players (Henderson, Waite, Rowe, Watson, Casboult, etc) whenever this is settled we perform well.

Throwing white forward appears to be the final straw - I like others would like to see Watson tried further forward using his great marking and penetrating kicking ability to be used across mid-half forward to feed Casboult and White. This is also Waites best position - he plays superbly on the wings.

TL;DR Carlton is a team full of potential - it has no claims to that potential but should not be written off.

I like your confidence. But you do have some legit points... Its 2014 now and there are many guys left that made finals at Carlton from 2009-2011.

Carlton just need 2-3 good quality players, 1 has to be a key forward obviously.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

Theres a big differences when Malthouse Coached all 4 of those clubs...

When Malthouse coached his 1st team, the bulldogs, he was there for 6 years (1984-1989) and only 1 season he got them to finals and that was a Prelim in 1985. Most AFL Coaches would not survive 6 seasons if they only had finals on one season. Give Malthouse credit, he did well with lacke of financial resources and lack of quality players.

Then he headed to West coast... I agree, it was the Equivalent on Coaching the Brisbane Broncos in the NRL... It was a 1 team state, but he Had access to many WA talent. Unlike coaching a Victorian side, where your getting local talent and competing against 9 or 10 other clubs for that local talent. Eagles had the team and the money to get that sucess in the 1990s. Not surprising the eagles had 10 straight years of finals in that 1990 to 1999 period.

Collingwood was different... They were struggling financially at first. They did make the 2002 grand final, which not too many predicted then made 2003 and had a chance to Beat the lions. They even beat the lions in the Qualifying final that year. Then they had the rebuild in 2004-5 then played finals and eventually got the flag in 2010.

Then we go to Carlton... Carlton seemed to have a good team in that 2009-2011 period as they made finals then. The Malthouse came in 2013 to see if he could guide them to more success. Turns out Carlton need a clean out of players. I reckon the current Carlton list is like Collingwood of 2004-5: Malthouse needs to rebuild the club, but he needs the right people to push them back up the ladder.

You should read through this thread and see my earlier posts re MM record. (Which say pretty much what you are saying).

If you take out the Eagles years he has one of the lowest win loss ratios of the modern era - The Eagles period is an extreme outlier in his LONG career - and I go through and specifically highlight the players who were already there when he walked in - it was one of the greatest lists ever handed to a coach in history - he would have had to be the worst coach in history NOT to have won a flag.

 

[Doro]

You should read through this thread and see my earlier posts re MM record. (Which say pretty much what you are saying).

If you take out the Eagles years he has one of the lowest win loss ratios of the modern era - The Eagles period is an extreme outlier in his LONG career - and I go through and specifically highlight the players who were already there when he walked in - it was one of the greatest lists ever handed to a coach in history - he would have had to be the worst coach in history NOT to have won a flag.

K dude. There is one great stat re: coaching IMO. Length of survival. If you can't coach, your head is on the block earlier than Ned Stark.

 

[Mateyman]

The assessment by The Blue Baggers hits the nail on the head -

casboult, kreuzer, henderson, rowe, jamison, white, warnock .... big men tick

buckley, menzel, cripps, yarran + another top 10 pick .... super young talent tick

everitt, docherty, ... smart recruiting tick

murphy, judd, gibbs, simpson, curnow, thomas .... midfield depth tick

I would add in there W(bl)ayne Johnson - who I think is showing great POTENTIAL.

There is barely 2/3 quality KPPs in that lot and that is a "tick"?
Also, how does having 3 promising young players who haven't actually done anything yet+ a 23 year old flanker = a "tick" for a club's "super young talent"?

 

[Fadge]

There is barely 2/3 quality KPPs in that lot and that is a "tick"?
Also, how does having 3 promising young players who haven't actually done anything yet+ a 23 year old flanker = a "tick" for a club's "super young talent"?

I actually thought Blue Baggers was being sarcastic...

 

[Boomer10]

all is not lost

kreuzer back next year will make a big difference .. warnock outside the tap is a liability

henderson back to CHB, levi casboult CHF ... waite / jamison gives us a structure

resign gibbs & yarran add murphy, thomas, plus the young kids menzel, cripps and buckley

mclean, carazzo, to be moved on

hopefully judd plays another year

expect the blues to be back in the 8 next year

8? hahhha be realistic you wont be in the top 8 for around about 3-4 years.