Carlton's list

[Fadge]

And now that you aren't going to win the flag this year (you do realise don't you?). Your expectations for the rest of the season?

Where were you five weeks ago when we were sitting in the top four?

The beauty of having finished top four in five of the previous seven years is that it is a reasonable expectation to again be challenging for one of those positions. Unfortunately with the balance of our list this year, we needed a lot to go right for that to happen, and basically losing both Reid and Brown for the year amongst other injuries seems to have put paid to that. In saying that in our worst year in the past eight years we're most likely going to finish in as good a position as Carlton has in the past decade, so it's not all bad...

 

[Fadge]

Good post. Daisy hasn't played great footy this year, but he has come from a long way back.

The value he adds to our team is intangible. For a team of introverts he is what we desperately need. He is a great leader/mentor for our young players (and some older ones) due to his work ethic and fierce competitiveness.

So is he worth 700k. Maybe not yet, but let's revisit at the end of 2017.

Yep, certainly led from the front in the first game against Collingwood. Joel Selwoodesque.

 

[Fadge]

Redundant. He had 9 disposals at 89% efficiency, 8 marks, 1 contested mark, 2 goals, in only 69% game time (he was injured). I'm no expert but I think that means he played during the round he was nominated. It is also fact that they have given nominations based on an accumulation of efforts.

Pretty sure one of the AFL scribes suggested he had been unlucky not to be nominated before now and deserved one.

Since he has been nominated, there is nothing left for you to do but suck it up. No obsessive denial will change it now.

This is exactly what I was saying. Yes he played, but those stats surely wouldn't have much of an 'accumulation effect'.

 

[Vankri]

When he first came over, we expected him to be playing midseason so he's only a few games past where we expected him to start.

17 disposals per game, 5 marks per game and 11 goals for the season. It's okay considering the low fitness base he as coming from. A little too early for us to be concerned I'd suggest.

If his impact is as low next season, we'd have an issue.

According to Malthouse he wasn't expected to play the first 6 rounds , which isn't "midseason" and I would even question that because that would have been 8 months since his set back and Carlton decided to go against the surgery option. That's a 36 weeks recovery.

 

[Fadge]

According to Malthouse he wasn't expected to play the first 6 rounds , which isn't "midseason" and I would even question that because that would have been 8 months since his set back and Carlton decided to go against the surgery option. That's a 36 weeks recovery.

It's the Carlton way, just like the 22 off season surgeries that we only heard about once they were 0 and 4.

 

[F_therest]

They have an average list, with very poor developing KPP options. Other posters have correctly stated Port were once in trouble as an example of a quick list regeneration, but they had a plethora of top youngsters who for form/injury hadn't produced their best. Carlton don't have that quality.

Maybe its just because in general Port Adelaide players are a bit obscure in Melbourne and especially the last few years since they were shit, but i feel that our list actually does have equal amount of quality/talent/high draft picks as Port Adelaide. We just simply arent performing anywhere near our potential individually and as a team.

Port Adelaide's resurgence is much more than their 'top youngsters' starting to produce. It's the whole package starting from the top with Koch and Hinkley, good recent drafts with Wingard and Wines having immediate impact, spirited side, gameplan, fitness, good trading eg White and Polec and their role players stepping up in Jonas, Mitchell, Lobbe etc

 

[F_therest]

You should have let them know Casboult was the best contested mark going back in 2012 MK, need to listen to MK he is an early adopter.

Bahahaha, yep a throwaway line from a special comments man is proof of something!

heck me Carey was having pot shots at Collingwood and Buckley about having woeful defensive strategies in rd1, and then five weeks later against north he is championing them as one of the best defensive efforts he had seen....so which is it Wayne??

Because teams never play poorly with lack of effort one week and then in another game have a blinder where everyone is buying into the gameplan and giving maximum effort...

 

[Monkey King]

Why is Carey's opinion supposed to mean something?

When he and J Brown make comment on a players marking prowess, I'd say it means something. Why? Because they'd be two players who know through experience the level of difficulty in taking those marks.

You were arguing Casboult was one of the best contested marks back in 2012 anyway?!

No need to be creative. Here's exactly what I said. "Based on his performances at AFL level thus far, he's only a touch off Cloke in his ability to take a contested mark." And yes, now he's improved further. Now he's arguably even better than Cloke, particularly in a pack situation.

Fair enough, perhaps I got it wrong.

Carlton people all trumpeting Casboult as a big success and big improver under Mick, perhaps I over-rated Casboult back in 2012 under Ratten.

Yes. You got it wrong. No perhaps about it. I don't think anyone is claiming Casboult as a big success. But he has improved. And it's not just "Carlton people" who note this. Although I'm not sure why you give Malthouse or Ratten the focus you do. Could be any of half a dozen reasons behind the lad's improvement.

 

[Monkey King]

All this hype about Levi...

What hype? To say he's an improved player? That he's a great contested mark?

Shit Fadge, these are the most basic of observations.

 

[Chief]

It's the Carlton way, just like the 22 off season surgeries that we only heard about once they were 0 and 4.

Fadge I get the faintest inkling, and correct me if I am wrong, that you have a specific grudge against the Carlton Football Club.

Am I correct? Is it possible that a supporter of the Magpies is in any way set in a determined and unbalanced dislike of the venerable Old Dark Navy Blues?

Heaven forfend!

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Where were you five weeks ago when we were sitting in the top four?

The beauty of having finished top four in five of the previous seven years is that it is a reasonable expectation to again be challenging for one of those positions. Unfortunately with the balance of our list this year, we needed a lot to go right for that to happen, and basically losing both Reid and Brown for the year amongst other injuries seems to have put paid to that. In saying that in our worst year in the past eight years we're most likely going to finish in as good a position as Carlton has in the past decade, so it's not all bad...

It's the Collingwood way, top 4 certainties according to Fadge. If only Brown & Reid were on the park....

I would be more worried about paying a bloke $800-900k year to kick 9 more goals than a second year spud like Menzel. Particularly when there appears to be a dearth of young KPP coming through on your list to replace / assist big Trav. A lot of same same about Collingwoods list I reckon

 

[Vankri]

It's the Collingwood way, top 4 certainties according to Fadge. If only Brown & Reid were on the park....

I would be more worried about paying a bloke $800-900k year to kick 9 more goals than a second year spud like Menzel. Particularly when there appears to be a dearth of young KPP coming through on your list to replace / assist big Trav. A lot of same same about Collingwoods list I reckon

That doesn't make much sense.
1/ Menzel is no spud and you know it, so kicking 9 more goals than him is not to be laughed at.
2/ Cloke was offered $1M+ elsewhere (your club being the one suspected to have offered as much) so we signed him for less than market value at the time.
3/ The fact that we have a dearth of young KPP on our list is actually an argument in favour of giving Cloke whatever he was asking for. If we're going to find Cloke's replacement it's going to be through the draft and through development, not via a recruit, so Cloke's salary is irrelevant here.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

That doesn't make much sense.
1/ Menzel is no spud and you know it, so kicking 9 more goals than him is not to be laughed at.
2/ Cloke was offered $1M+ elsewhere (your club being the one suspected to have offered as much) so we signed him for less than market value at the time.
3/ The fact that we have a dearth of young KPP on our list is actually an argument in favour of giving Cloke whatever he was asking for. If we're going to find Cloke's replacement it's going to be through the draft and through development, not via a recruit, so Cloke's salary is irrelevant here.

Agree with all your points, Menzel isn't a spud and deserved his rising star nomination, a point I was sarcastically making to Fadge. Looks to be a real player. Bit of a shining light in what has been a bleak year.
Cloke on this years output is being overpaid, same with Thomas. A concern for both clubs at the moment. Would back both players to earn their money over the next couple of years. Thomas being a touch more of a concern than Cloke with his past injury issues.
Would like your thoughts on Collingwoods list, it appears they have drafted a bit the same same over the past couple of years? A lot of 6 foot and a bit type players. Does appear to be a lack of talls (other than the two young rucks) to support. Perhaps this is where the game is evolving?

 

[Vankri]

Agree with all your points, Menzel isn't a spud and deserved his rising star nomination, a point I was sarcastically making to Fadge. Looks to be a real player. Bit of a shining light in what has been a bleak year.
Cloke on this years output is being overpaid, same with Thomas. A concern for both clubs at the moment. Would back both players to earn their money over the next couple of years. Thomas being a touch more of a concern than Cloke with his past injury issues.
Would like your thoughts on Collingwoods list, it appears they have drafted a bit the same same over the past couple of years? A lot of 6 foot and a bit type players. Does appear to be a lack of talls (other than the two young rucks) to support. Perhaps this is where the game is evolving?

I understand where you're coming from with Cloke's top salary considered but still think you're harsh on him. He's 7th in the AFL for marks taken and 12th for goals and he takes 1 or 2 of the opponent's best defenders every week. He would definitely do better if our forward line wasn't so unsettled/underwhelming and would do better with Reid at his side. In comparison I'm not sure Thomas got closely tagged in any game this season (haven't watched every game so going by reviews here) so he should be producing better numbers.

Regarding our drafting, I think we have (rightly) identified foot skills as a deficiency in our list. It wasn't as much an issue when we were playing Malthouse's game plan as we didn't rely on clean foot skills or delivery (more percentage kicks and bombing forward to lock it in there), however with our rejuvenated playing style we can't afford to carry too many poor kicks. Kennedy, Broomhead and Scharenberg seem to have been drafted to try and answer this. Just happens the first two are short. Don't think we have drafted any others in that mould in our last 3 drafts.
Reg talls, I think we'll draft Darcy Moore as a F/S this year so hope he develops his potential. Other than that I'm not sure if there is any substance to the rumours of one of GWS' talls being on the trade table, but I would expect us to be interested just as Carlton and many others would be. But not sure what GWS would be seeking in return so I wouldn't expect us to end up winners in that race.

 

[doppleganger]

When he and J Brown make comment on a players marking prowess, I'd say it means something. Why? Because they'd be two players who know through experience the level of difficulty in taking those marks.

Off tangent, but being able to DO something yourself doesn't automatically mean you are great at recognising that talent in others.

No need to be creative. Here's exactly what I said. "Based on his performances at AFL level thus far, he's only a touch off Cloke in his ability to take a contested mark." And yes, now he's improved further. Now he's arguably even better than Cloke, particularly in a pack situation.

Not being creative, you were all over him back in 2012...the media are slow on the uptake and are finally realising Casboult can clunk them.

Somebody mentioned S.Loewe as a similar player, very apt IMO and Carlton fans would be happy if he continues to improve and play a Loewe type CHF role.

. Although I'm not sure why you give Malthouse or Ratten the focus you do. Could be any of half a dozen reasons behind the lad's improvement.

Because IMO Ratten is unfairly copping blame for Carlton's present malaise, and contrastingly MM afforded plenty of excuses for Carlton's poor performance...none of which were afforded to Ratt's in 2012.

Ratten had plenty of blokes playing good footy back in 10-12 that have simply stagnated or actually regressed since he left, guys who showed plenty as 20-23 year olds under Ratten have not continued to build as they hit peak age under MM.

Casboult identified as one bloke who has shown marked improvement under MM, I thought he showed plenty of promise back in 2012 myself, but clearly was wrong on him.

Funny thing is - Henderson, Kreuzer, Warnock, Rowe, Jamison, Casboult - are all the same names who were supposed to see Carlton jump from 5th in 2011 to top4 and flag chances...but back then blues fans also listed Hampson, Waite and had faith in Watson.

 

[Fadge]

I would be more worried about paying a bloke $800-900k year to kick 9 more goals than a second year spud like Menzel. Particularly when there appears to be a dearth of young KPP coming through on your list to replace / assist big Trav. A lot of same same about Collingwoods list I reckon

Can't argue. Same same in the fact another year, another top four contender.

Never gets boring.

 

[Love the Drake]

Where were you five weeks ago when we were sitting in the top four?

The beauty of having finished top four in five of the previous seven years is that it is a reasonable expectation to again be challenging for one of those positions. Unfortunately with the balance of our list this year, we needed a lot to go right for that to happen, and basically losing both Reid and Brown for the year amongst other injuries seems to have put paid to that. In saying that in our worst year in the past eight years we're most likely going to finish in as good a position as Carlton has in the past decade, so it's not all bad...

Here you go again...'having finished top four in five of the previous seven years' - wow that's really digging in to the stats! Here's one for you - collingwood have won ONE of their last FOUR FINALS. The term 'colliwobbles' comes to mind doesn't it?!

You are seriously blaming injuries for your teams average performances?! Everyone gets injuries - the good ones have the depth to cover them - your team doesn't!! Wake up and smell the roses - your team are a long way off the top teams. As the self anointed guru/historian I'd have thought you'd have worked that out.

Finally, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with getting 'one up' on the most successful team in the AFL/VFL. Digging in to your previous posts I'd suggest this is because you grew up in the 70s/80s. Come on...must have been hard for you -turning up to school after losing all those grand finals to the mighty blues!

And back on topic...Blaine Johnson has also impressed. Another one to add to our impressive youngsters. Aggressive trading and some good draft selections and we are back up where we belong.

 

[Love the Drake]

Can't argue. Same same in the fact another year, another top four contender.

Never gets boring.

Top four. Top four. That's all we hear from you guys. How embarrassing for you. I'll let you in to a little secret - The game is about premierships - which is why we have the most in the league.

When you fall out of the top four what is it then? Top eight?

 

[Love the Drake]

Yep, certainly led from the front in the first game against Collingwood. Joel Selwoodesque.

Still hurts doesn't it?

 

[Fadge]

And back on topic...Blaine Johnson has also impressed. Another one to add to our impressive youngsters. Aggressive trading and some good draft selections and we are back up where we belong.

Blaine Johnson? Based on 1.5 games? You guys are easily satisfied/impressed down at Visy Park nowadays...

Yep, every team is only a few shrewd trades and astute draft picks away from contending, but you forgot about development. Just an oversight?

 

[Love the Drake]

Blaine Johnson? Based on 1.5 games? You guys are easily satisfied/impressed down at Visy Park nowadays...

Yep, every team is only a few shrewd trades and astute draft picks away from contending, but you forgot about development. Just an oversight?

Re Johnson.. I'm talking about young players showing something. I didn't mention development because I didn't want to write one of those long, boring posts...You know, like the ones you write..

Talking about oversights...How about those 70s and 80s? I'm right aren't i? Can't shake those memories? Forget to respond?

 

[Alison Platinum]

Talking about oversights...How about those 70s and 80s? I'm right aren't i? Can't shake those memories? Forget to respond?

Pffttttt..70s and 80s you say? Look at the two minnows fight

 

[gab213]

Pffttttt..70s and 80s you say? Look at the two minnows fight

To be fair the majority of Hawthorn's success comes from the 70's and 80's as well

 

[bananatigz]

The good things from a carlton list perspective is that we are getting games into youth, and are moving in the right direction in that regard - Bell, Menzel, Buckley, Johnson, Graham, Cripps have all played this year, with Holman and Sheehan both unlucky to not have gotten a game yet.

We have already had 2 retirements, and delisted a player which is the forced 3 changes....but look to make quite a few more as part of our rebuild which is a positive thing for the club (unlike 2012 where we had a lot of deadwood on 2 year contracts).

For players struggling to get games at another club...we might be an attractive destination from a gametime perspective. We dont have a ton of A grade quality in the reserves, and if we identify a role for a player we are trading in....odds are they will play (Everitt, Thomas being prime examples - Docherty unfortunately had some setbacks in the offseason but played AFL once ready).

We also have held up ok against some top teams. Turning these losses into wins isnt just a matter of time...it will take more improvements to the list....but the good thing is we arent getting absolutely smashed off the park. That being said, our wins against the Dogs, Eagles and Crows were all hardly big wins either. We need to build consistency in our game, as our bad quarters generally cost us the whole game.

That for me worries me though in terms of Carltons list, Menzel will be a gun, Buckley and Cripps look like they could become decent players but outside that there isn't that much to write home about when you compare it to the youngsters at say Port or the Doggies.

 

[slashin_velvet]

That for me worries me though in terms of Carltons list, Menzel will be a gun, Buckley and Cripps look like they could become decent players but outside that there isn't that much to write home about when you compare it to the youngsters at say Port or the Doggies.

How much have you seen of the others on Carltons list? Holman, Sheehan, Byrne etc?

I dont watch the sanfl, or many doggies vfl games....so I cant comment on comparability - but I wouldnt be surprised that teams who have recently finished at the very bottom of the ladder have better youth than a team that has been middle of the table for the last 5 years. ('09 - 7th, '10 - 8th, '11 - 5th, '12 - 10th, '13 - 6th (after finals)) - thats finals in 4 of the last 5 years - albeit one by default.