Carlton's list

[doppleganger]

Time frame, didn't mean exactly 2011, just around that period, it's tripe to blame the coaching, how did we go in 2012 under Ratten? It's what happens when you don't have a steady influx of good young players and we haven't had that for a few years now.

After 3 consecutive seasons making finals under Ratten, in 2012 the Carlton team went 11-11 and just missed the finals.

You can blame bad drafting for a fair bit, but why have guys like Walker, Waite, Robinson, Garlett not improved under MM.

Which players are actually better under MM compared to Ratten??

 

[OniAu]

I dont really think anyone would give up a 1st rounder for Kruezer tbh

Stranger things have happened, wouldnt put it past a top 8 team looking for a competent ruck. Obvious massive mark against him is his Injury proneness.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

After 3 consecutive seasons making finals under Ratten, in 2012 the Carlton team went 11-11 and just missed the finals.

You can blame bad drafting for a fair bit, but why have guys like Walker, Waite, Robinson, Garlett not improved under MM.

Which players are actually better under MM compared to Ratten??

It's astonishing really - just ridiculous the level of denial amongst our supporters.

Apparently Ratten had an awesome list and all the players were peaking - while Mick has been handed a dud list with all the players past it. Riiiight.

Ratten came in, after 7 years without making the finals - and had a FAR worse list - but guess what - he got the best out of the players and got them to play their best footy.

Sans Ratten almost all of them have gone backwards - that's the painful truth. The only player who has stepped up is Gibbs - finally. All the rest are well behind where they were -Murphy, Garlett, Walker.....but oh, its not because Mick isn't connecting with the players properly (really, anyone seen this guys approach ??), and its definitely not that Ratten was getting the best out of them, its because Mick has a poor list, and the players are all past their prime, or, It's because of injuries....WHAT !!! Actually - these players are in their prime right now - Ratten had them performing above and beyond.

Ratten had the worst run of injuries of any club ever - if not would have to be up there. Mick looks like a broken toe nail compared to Rattens train crash. And last year ? What was that ? But this year - we have a fair chance of finishing equal last. One game off the bottom of the ladder. That is just a deplorable slide, an abject failure.

There are huge FACTIONS of Carlton supporters who simply will not allow any negative discussion regarding Mick what so ever - none. Simply can not bring themselves to broach a single issue.

I just don't understand how the bench mark can be so ridiculously high, harsh and unfair to guy like Ratten, who then delivers over and above - smashes it out of the ball park, and gets SACKED, then the bench mark is set lower than a lizards bum, Mick completely fails, sends us backwards - from finals to one game off LAST, and is rewarded and praised.

If supporters can't see how absolutely bias they are over the coaching fiasco and the Blues then not sure what will open their eyes.

Edit:

The Carlton board is advocating that Mick get a few years to rebuild. WTF ?

I, ...just.......am gob smacked. A few years ?!!

 

[Dynamics]

MM seems to have miscalculated wher Carlton were at but still has taken them downhill at a rate of knots. He is an old coach but unlike at Collingwood has surrounded himself with older 2ICs. Wiley and Laidley have also been in the system a long time. Carlton need more dynamic young assistants to keep Mick up to date. That would be a better mix in the coaching group.

It's the reverse concept of why having Eade around Buckley or Balme around Thompson back in the day was a good idea

The irony is that this is the role that he himself agreed to take on at Collingwood.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I was livid we got rid of Ratts. People can't have it both ways. We got Mick to take us to the next level rather than make up numbers in the finals. If we now suggest the list is no good then Ratten over achieved. However this list has always been mentally fragile and devoid of presence and consistency. The one negative for Ratten is he built this list. Him and Hughes. It is either good enough and Mick is underachieving or not good enough and Ratten didn't build it correctly. If the latter Mick is as good as anyone at building it again. He has shown he can get players to play for him in the past.

Personally I think the club got ahead of itself forgetting how hard flags are to win. Our run of finals appearances might have been the bird in the hand and we threw it away for a flag in the bush.

I was a critic of Mick when he came over. I'm not now despite our performances. The problems were there before and he needs a chance to fix them. I want to see something big list wise at the end of the year and want to see a change in player attitude sooner rather than later. There is a cancer at Carlton, in development, interference or playing group. Too many coaches are getting sunk by it.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[Gone Critical]

Maybe MM hadn't calculated for 21 ops in the off-season.

These day a team can't afford one weak link but we have several that the sooner we put them in for surgery the better.
Will be interesting whether we'll pull the pin though. I hope we do.

The "21 ops" had happened when March came about and Mick pegged Carlton at 11 oclock on the premiership clock. As the attached article says he had already factored Carltons pre season in when he declared you ready to make a strike for the top.

If I was at Carlton I would have serious misgivings about how MM has done so far. It's too convenient to say Ratten, Sticks and the board miscalculated where Carlton were and Mick now has to pick up the pieces. He came in with a clear mantra to take Carlton to where the board, scribes, experts and many supporters felt Ratten couldn't.

Truth is Mick is past it. No coach ever has been successful at his age. All the modern great coaches have failed in their last stint of coaching. This is a well worn path that Hafey, Parkin, Barrassi, Blight etc have been down. Matthews and maybe Roos are the only ones who spring to mind who really controlled their own destiny in the end and saw where they were at.

Mick had the perfect opportunity to join those 2. If he had seen things clearly he would have embraced and honoured the opportunity Collingwood gave him to close out a great career. That would have magnified his achievements not tarnished them


Clock is ticking for hardened Blues, says Malthouse - AFL.com



www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-15/micks-distored-clock-theory

 

[The Blue Baggers]

casboult & gibbs have improved under MM and I think yarran is having his most consistent season (coincidence all 3 are out of contract end of year)

curnow was improving until injured ; sam rowe is MM type of player limited ability but does a job

buckley & menzel have come into the team .... add cripps next year

we need some luck with kreuzer (who when fit has shown he can first ruck) .... henderson our best KP has been playing injured all year

murphy, thomas etc still have good years left ... both are coming back from injuries this year and have been ok

docherty looked ok for a couple of games , everitt has been a good pick up

the only player I would throw the kitchen sink @ would be jeremy cameron , otherwise just build through the draft

players who should go;

lucas - richmond will probably trade for him

carazzo / mclean are past their best , and we have plenty of like players that are much younger

walker has been huge disappointment this year ... signs a big 3 year contract and goes back to where he was 4-5 years ago

warnock could be traded , is a good tap ruckman but struggles around the ground

tuohy has been disappointing this year ... gone backwards

garlett has shown he can play but some of his efforts are a big worry ... another that has currency


summary; 2009-10 were terrible years for the blues @ the draft and we are paying now ....

ratten was way too loyal and paid a price, if MM wants to continue he is proven coach that will not tolerate half a*&^ efforts over time

 

[HARKER]

The "21 ops" had happened when March came about and Mick pegged Carlton at 11 oclock on the premiership clock. As the attached article says he had already factored Carltons pre season in when he declared you ready to make a strike for the top.

If I was at Carlton I would have serious misgivings about how MM has done so far. It's too convenient to say Ratten, Sticks and the board miscalculated where Carlton were and Mick now has to pick up the pieces. He came in with a clear mantra to take Carlton to where the board, scribes, experts and many supporters felt Ratten couldn't.

Truth is Mick is past it. No coach ever has been successful at his age. All the modern great coaches have failed in their last stint of coaching. This is a well worn path that Hafey, Parkin, Barrassi, Blight etc have been down. Matthews and maybe Roos are the only ones who spring to mind who really controlled their own destiny in the end and saw where they were at.

Mick had the perfect opportunity to join those 2. If he had seen things clearly he would have embraced and honoured the opportunity Collingwood gave him to close out a great career. That would have magnified his achievements not tarnished them


Clock is ticking for hardened Blues, says Malthouse - AFL.com



www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-15/micks-distored-clock-theory

............. What do you think the CFC are going to say whilst still reeling in members?

"We have many players that really shouldn't be playing and things are going to be tough this year"?

That's not going to work, is it?

 

[Gone Critical]

............. What do you think the CFC are going to say whilst still reeling in members?

"We have many players that really shouldn't be playing and things are going to be tough this year"?

That's not going to work, is it?

I disagree. Micks not really a man in the past to try and snow the members. For good reason it is a really short term tactic. If you reckon Mick thought I will put a little mayo on this to boost numbers I would be shocked. Such statements will always come back to bite you. Ask Schwabby.

I don't buy that Mick saw Carlton as anything else than a side that could potentially challenge soon. The fact that he seems to have taken the side immediately away from that prospect in his 1st season and a half is something he needs to take at least some responsibility for. On any objective analysis he has been a failure so far as a Carlton coach. There is time for him to turn that about but if you are not at least a bit worried about the appointment I reckon you have rose coloured glasses on.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

I disagree. Micks not really a man in the past to try and snow the members. For good reason it is a really short term tactic. If you reckon Mick thought I will put a little mayo on this to boost numbers I would be shocked. Such statements will always come back to bite you. Ask Schwabby.

I don't buy that Mick saw Carlton as anything else than a side that could potentially challenge soon. The fact that he seems to have taken the side immediately away from that prospect in his 1st season and a half is something he needs to take at least some responsibility for. On any objective analysis he has been a failure so far as a Carlton coach. There is time for him to turn that about but if you are not at least a bit worried about the appointment I reckon you have rose coloured glasses on.

understand there is alot of resentment @ magpie land for MM joining carlton

but it's the list not the coach which is the issue @ carlton

I for one are happy MM is the coach

 

[MarkT2]

It was always going to be about a 3 year x 10 player list turnover when Mick came to Carlton. A few Carlton fans on here argued that point vigorously with me at the time but that was always where the list was placed and it is what Malthouse knew was required. Malthouse coached for the future at Collingwood until the future had finality. He was always going to get a contract extension. That will come soon and the list rebuild will be articulated to Carlton fans to dampen expectations - if they aren't already sodden.

 

[HARKER]

I disagree. Micks not really a man in the past to try and snow the members. For good reason it is a really short term tactic. If you reckon Mick thought I will put a little mayo on this to boost numbers I would be shocked. Such statements will always come back to bite you. Ask Schwabby.

I don't buy that Mick saw Carlton as anything else than a side that could potentially challenge soon. The fact that he seems to have taken the side immediately away from that prospect in his 1st season and a half is something he needs to take at least some responsibility for. On any objective analysis he has been a failure so far as a Carlton coach. There is time for him to turn that about but if you are not at least a bit worried about the appointment I reckon you have rose coloured glasses on.

You disagree..........and I know.

At best, the CFC thought it would take 6 - 8 weeks before they would become fully competitive.
Thomas, Henderson, Judd, Carrazzo, Tuohy, Walker, Robinson, Armfield etc etc all came in underdone.
Let's see whether we start putting some of those players away fro surgery as they sure as hell need them.

Anyway, all that aside we have plenty of work to do and aren't a top 8 side.
Every team has their fair share of personnel issues but some can cope better than others............we can't.

 

[LeverPuller]

Now its time for the easiest part of any coach's job. The cuts. Although I wasn't able to cut everyone I wanted to, I have cut a lot of you. Wendell is cut. McLean is cut. Lucas, you're gone. Armfield, I like your hustle. That's why it was so hard to cut you. Congratulations, the rest of you made the team. Except you, you and you.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-cut.947418/

 

[Gone Critical]

understand there is alot of resentment @ magpie land for MM joining carlton

but it's the list not the coach which is the issue @ carlton

I for one are happy MM is the coach

With the job he is doing at Carlton I could hardly be unhappy he is there. As a general point I am disappointed in anyone who moves from Collingwood to Carlton. Purely a supporters biased perspective . For the same reason I would prefer never to recruit anyone from Carlton. Even though apparantly a great clubman we shouldnt have picked up Russell last year.

My real disappointment in Mick is that he didn't see through his contract at Collingwood. How much of the blame for that lies with Buckley or Malthouse I am not sure. It would have been in everyones interests at Collingwood if that had been achieved

 

[Old Dark Blues]

I was livid we got rid of Ratts. People can't have it both ways. We got Mick to take us to the next level rather than make up numbers in the finals. If we now suggest the list is no good then Ratten over achieved. However this list has always been mentally fragile and devoid of presence and consistency. The one negative for Ratten is he built this list. Him and Hughes. It is either good enough and Mick is underachieving or not good enough and Ratten didn't build it correctly. If the latter Mick is as good as anyone at building it again. He has shown he can get players to play for him in the past.

Personally I think the club got ahead of itself forgetting how hard flags are to win. Our run of finals appearances might have been the bird in the hand and we threw it away for a flag in the bush.

I was a critic of Mick when he came over. I'm not now despite our performances. The problems were there before and he needs a chance to fix them. I want to see something big list wise at the end of the year and want to see a change in player attitude sooner rather than later. There is a cancer at Carlton, in development, interference or playing group. Too many coaches are getting sunk by it.

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People can't have it both ways. We got Mick to take us to the next level rather than make up numbers in the finals. If we now suggest the list is no good then Ratten over achieved.


The issue amongst the supporter base is, as usual no one is allowed to question any thing or any one. One wonders at the entire point of "forums/carlton.25/" except "express loyalty under all circumstances, praise be the coach, and damn, another loss, another season second last, I'm sure they know what they are doing, best not say anything."


.

 

[Donakebab]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-cut.947418/

Great minds...

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

People can't have it both ways. We got Mick to take us to the next level rather than make up numbers in the finals. If we now suggest the list is no good then Ratten over achieved.


The issue amongst the supporter base is, as usual no one is allowed to question any thing or any one. One wonders at the entire point of "forums/carlton.25/" except "express loyalty under all circumstances, praise be the coach, and damn, another loss, another season second last, I'm sure they know what they are doing, best not say anything."


.

Well that's not entirely true. It may feel true and there may be posters that make you feel that way but as a moderator there, and as someone who posts constructive criticism as above, I'm not about to shut down all criticism. Depends on how a poster expresses it, depends on whether it turns hostile and depends on whether a poster also shows balance and can identify positives if they exist.

 

[koutamarto]

Well that's not entirely true. It may feel true and there may be posters that make you feel that way but as a moderator there, and as someone who posts constructive criticism as above, I'm not about to shut down all criticism. Depends on how a poster expresses it, depends on whether it turns hostile and depends on whether a poster also shows balance and can identify positives if they exist.

Sounds Like school.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Sounds Like school.

We just want posting that is conducive to discussion, negative or positive and doesn't reflect the type of posts we see on the club's facebook page or the callers we get on SEN. Also with fake supporter accounts a problem on occasion, we want to be sure we are dealing with actual supporters and not trolls.

 

[koutamarto]

We just want posting that is conducive to discussion, negative or positive and doesn't reflect the type of posts we see on the club's facebook page or the callers we get on SEN. Also with fake supporter accounts a problem on occasion, we want to be sure we are dealing with actual supporters and not trolls.

We dont get SEN in Hobart. Must be bad!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

We dont get SEN in Hobart. Must be bad!

I don't get it in Qld either but have listened online from time to time and hearing about the feral nature of some of the comments, that's probably a good thing.

 

[gbatman]

After 3 consecutive seasons making finals under Ratten, in 2012 the Carlton team went 11-11 and just missed the finals.

You can blame bad drafting for a fair bit, but why have guys like Walker, Waite, Robinson, Garlett not improved under MM.

Which players are actually better under MM compared to Ratten??

Carlton went 11-11 under Malthouse last season.

Walker, Waite are getting past it. Robinson hasn't changed. Garlett is playing poor football on his own accord.

Gibbs is better. Maybe Simpson. Carlton's stars all peaked and so did the team around 2010-2011.

It's just dumb blaming a coach who has rebuilt sides from the ground up on many occasions and won or competed in grand finals. Really dumb.

Carlton have a handfull of good players. the rest are ordinary quality or past their best, some well past their best. Too many players not turning out. Too many injuries to a list which is shallow and very young in the bottom end.

 

[doppleganger]

Carlton went 11-11 under Malthouse last season.

Walker, Waite are getting past it. Robinson hasn't changed. Garlett is playing poor football on his own accord.

Gibbs is better. Maybe Simpson. Carlton's stars all peaked and so did the team around 2010-2011.

It's just dumb blaming a coach who has rebuilt sides from the ground up on many occasions and won or competed in grand finals. Really dumb.

Carlton have a handfull of good players. the rest are ordinary quality or past their best, some well past their best. Too many players not turning out. Too many injuries to a list which is shallow and very young in the bottom end.

Walker just turned 28, that is your peak age...ie the age Judd was when Carlton peaked in 2011.

The following Carlton players are in the peak age group 23-28 for footballers right NOW

23-Yarran, Bell
24-Casboult, Curnow, Garlett, Henderson, Touhy
25-Robinson, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Everitt, Ellard
26-Murphy, Rowe, White
27-Armfield, Thomas, Warnock
28-Walker, Jamison, McLean

Carlton only have four key older players who are 30+ Judd, Waite, Simpson and Carazzo

You are absolutely deluded if you think the list was in peak window back in 09-11 under Ratten.

Everything should be aligning for Carlton to be peaking right now, hence why MM was bought in.

Yet the majority of players in their peak footballing age have stagnated or regressed under MM and now Carlton look like a bottom four type team.

It is dumb thinking a coach who started out 30 years ago doesn't have an expiry date. and even dumber to not see the signs early that his methods may not work anymore.

The youth coming through may be light on, which will hurt the future, but the bulk of the list is now the youth back from 09-11 under Ratts who have now matured...and Carlton have gone backwards as they matured.

 

[Topkent]

I was livid we got rid of Ratts. People can't have it both ways. We got Mick to take us to the next level rather than make up numbers in the finals. If we now suggest the list is no good then Ratten over achieved. However this list has always been mentally fragile and devoid of presence and consistency. The one negative for Ratten is he built this list. Him and Hughes. It is either good enough and Mick is underachieving or not good enough and Ratten didn't build it correctly. If the latter Mick is as good as anyone at building it again. He has shown he can get players to play for him in the past.

Personally I think the club got ahead of itself forgetting how hard flags are to win. Our run of finals appearances might have been the bird in the hand and we threw it away for a flag in the bush.

I was a critic of Mick when he came over. I'm not now despite our performances. The problems were there before and he needs a chance to fix them. I want to see something big list wise at the end of the year and want to see a change in player attitude sooner rather than later. There is a cancer at Carlton, in development, interference or playing group. Too many coaches are getting sunk by it.

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Very very smart post
Its amazing how easily people can right off someone who is a PROVEN 30 year coach, Mick will turn the list around no dramas at all, He basically built Collingwoods list twice and made GF's in both of his builds
Also Brett Ratten was a fantastic coach, He nearly got Carlton into the top 4 with Waite, Betts, Garlett and Yarran as his forward line and Henderson and Jamison as his backline... Hardly team of the century stuff there

Carlton will be ok, They should have taken Stewy Crameri and Chris Dawes when they were on the market and chased a Chaplin and/or another KB when Judd was in his prime

 

[gbatman]

Walker just turned 28, that is your peak age...ie the age Judd was when Carlton peaked in 2011.

The following Carlton players are in the peak age group 23-28 for footballers right NOW

23-Yarran, Bell
24-Casboult, Curnow, Garlett, Henderson, Touhy
25-Robinson, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Everitt, Ellard
26-Murphy, Rowe, White
27-Armfield, Thomas, Warnock
28-Walker, Jamison, McLean

Carlton only have four key older players who are 30+ Judd, Waite, Simpson and Carazzo

You are absolutely deluded if you think the list was in peak window back in 09-11 under Ratten.

Everything should be aligning for Carlton to be peaking right now, hence why MM was bought in.

Yet the majority of players in their peak footballing age have stagnated or regressed under MM and now Carlton look like a bottom four type team.

It is dumb thinking a coach who started out 30 years ago doesn't have an expiry date. and even dumber to not see the signs early that his methods may not work anymore.

The youth coming through may be light on, which will hurt the future, but the bulk of the list is now the youth back from 09-11 under Ratts who have now matured...and Carlton have gone backwards as they matured.

Yeah and they aren't a shaddow on the quality of the players I mentioned apart from Murphy who was also at his peak back then and Gibbs who also played good footy back then as well. You're severly underselling the influence a fit and firing Waite and Judd in their prime had on the team in 2011. Hardly any key position players in that group you listed and no forwards, none which are any good.

Henderson, Garlett, Bell and Armfield are not peaking, all are unfit and playing poorly .

The only guns we have at their peak at the moment are Murphy and Gibbs and Murphy still had a better season back then.

Coaches aren't food, they don't have an expiry date, the finish because of health or an unwillingness to coach.