Review Cats spay Demons by 39 points.

[PhatBoy]

What does age have to do with it?? A lot. This shouldn’t be a hard question to work out.

Age means you have had more development in the system, more fitness and conditioning, more time in the gym doing strength work, more pre seasons of full fitness programs… more exposure in a full time AFL skill development environment… more 1on1 coaching… Jesus didn’t think I had to really spell out how age has something to do with it. It’s obvious.

So yes comparing a 18-19yo and 23 yo is fudging numbers because you are deliberately leaving out a fact that changes the story and narrative

This is Neale’s 5th year in the system and by the end of it he will probably have 45 games under his belt.

Hawkins played his 45th game in his fourth year in the system.

Again, the difference really isn’t that great.

Once more, nothing has been fudged.

You wanted to look at precedents for players being ‘gifted’ games. You’ve been shown them.

 

[Gazza Greatness]

You have said on multiple occasions that their form is unacceptable. They are certainly not performing as we would like but the reality is that they absolutely should be selected this week and the next. Just think they are whipping boys playing in roles that at the moment are difficult to provide consistency. Absolutely agree that comparing him to hawkins' early career form is getting a bit tired but I think we could be a little more patient with a kid taken at 33 that has 24 games to his name. Whilst you didn't specifically say you want him dropped, saying it is unacceptable is a little overs IMO.

Structurally, Shannon Neale is extremely important to Geelong and although his game against Demons wasn't to the heights we'd like, he did have an 'excellent last quarter' which was great to see. Shannon, being such a 'mountain of a man' but also so, so athletic, was also unlucky not to get a few frees by either being blocked, subtlety pushed in back or arms hit in marking contests. It was so noticable how Melbourne backman 'in tandem' were constantly stopping him from having a run at the ball which is something he'll need to adjust to better but there is an upside because it does allow a player like Paddy Dangerfield a little more freedom to take marks while Shannon is being the heavy focus.

Shannon also takes most of the forward-line rucking duties in forward half which allows our main ruckman to sit behind play which sets us up so much better from a defensive point of view and by Shannon taking the odd centre bounces it also lessens the load for our main rucks.

At present my main criticism of Shannon is that he drops too many marks that he has in his hands, therefore the hard work has been done as he has the ball in his hands but he drops the ball. To me, it comes down to technique..... with him 'fully stretching his arms to mark without turning his elbows in' which is the wrong thing to do as you end up with 'flat hands', you need when flying for a mark 'to turn BOTH your elbows in' which when doing this action 'turns your hands out, thus making far easy to mark the ball' but also while doing this action 'you MUST have soft hands', learn to do that and his marking issues will be over!

 

[PhatBoy]

I’m not entirely honest why anyone is arguing at all. A lot of sensitive people when a player who is playing poorly gets criticized they jump up and down. I’m just calling a spade a spade.

All I have said is he has played poor this season and below AFL standard, and that we can’t carry that sort of form for the entire season. The match committee would need to seriously consider other options if he keeps averaging 1 goal 3 marks and 6 touches a game. That’s not a FF or CHF output afl standard.

And no one is denying that he’s been underwhelming but he was actually pretty decent last year, he’s definitely not alone among our forwards at the moment, and people will always highlight the fact that there are numerous examples of other guys who have done better or similar or worse who were persisted with for longer and did worse, or persisted with and ultimately blossomed.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

And no one is denying that he’s been underwhelming but he was actually pretty decent last year, he’s definitely not alone among our forwards at the moment, and people will always highlight the fact that there are numerous examples of other guys who have done better or similar or worse who were persisted with for longer and did worse, or persisted with and ultimately blossomed.

He was ok last year. Kicked his 3 at best, the occasional 2 goal haul and 1 here and there.

Hopefully he turns it around at some point.

He does take the occasional quality grab that makes you think “ oh jeez what if?”

 

[iameviljez]

This is Neale’s 5th year in the system and by the end of it he will probably have 45 games under his belt.

Hawkins played his 45th game in his fourth year in the system.

Again, the difference really isn’t that great.

Hawkins is, in many ways, not a reasonable comparison to Neale because so much was different about them.

Hawk was a star junior forward and would probably have gone #1 in an open draft. Neale went #33 as a ruckman.

Hawk started playing seniors almost straightaway (but not as a regular). Neale only cracked them at age 22.

Hawk's stats were far better, but he was playing in a team of generational superstars. Neale is in a side which can be very good on its day, but is hit-and-miss.

Hawk was still getting dropped after 70-odd games, and went on to become a superstar. That is very unusual, even for the big guys.

 

[Gazza Greatness]

I’m not entirely honest why anyone is arguing at all. A lot of sensitive people when a player who is playing poorly gets criticized they jump up and down. I’m just calling a spade a spade.

All I have said is he has played poor this season and below AFL standard, and that we can’t carry that sort of form for the entire season. The match committee would need to seriously consider other options if he keeps averaging 1 goal 3 marks and 6 touches a game. That’s not a FF or CHF output afl standard.

geelong_crazy26: I have no issue with this at all (above highlighted red) but when calling a spade a spade mate, you need to look at the overall context which is something at times some people do not do very well, thus making the spade a spade comment out of sync. and unreasonable. It's not even a knock, it's just that in certain situations some folk are better at analysing overall context better than others but one thing I will say personally geelong_crazy26: and that is Shannon Neale is extremely important to the Geelong structure and that we are a better team with him being in the side. All awhile, as he continues grow and develop into an excellent AFL footballer, which one day I'm sure he will be..... and GO CATS !!!

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Hawkins is, in many ways, not a reasonable comparison to Neale because so much was different about them.

Hawk was a star junior forward and would probably have gone #1 in an open draft. Neale went #33 as a ruckman.

Hawk started playing seniors almost straightaway (but not as a regular). Neale only cracked them at age 22.

Hawk's stats were far better, but he was playing in a team of generational superstars. Neale is in a side which can be very good on its day, but is hit-and-miss.

Hawk was still getting dropped after 70-odd games, and went on to become a superstar. That is very unusual, even for the big guys.

I watched hawk first hand play APS footy and by god… freak player is an understatement.

Basically ball kicked to hawk.. hawk marks… rinse repeat.. all game.. 3v1 also.. plus his carnival games he dismantled the no2 draft pick Scott gumbleton at CHF.

He would have gone no1 in a heart beat. Carlton didn’t have any quality key forwards at the time.

Hawk came on with a bang on the scene, he was inconsistent.. but his best was still something of a wow and reminded you how gifted he was, often taking a specie ( he had a huge vertical leap) or kicking bags of 4-5 goals.

He had to reinvent himself at one stage from an old school goal square wrestling forward to becoming a mobile forward working up and down the field, which took several years to reinvent himself with.

 

[Hinkley29]

Toby Conway, who one day will be in the top 3 ruckman in the AFL is ONLY 21 yo and 207 cms, so injury set-back's in his early career are far more likely to happen than not happen and not dissimilar to champion and outstanding Demons ruckman in Max Gawn. Sure, Toby has had a couple of unfortunate early set-back's but that is all they were, otherwise the club would have never 'resigned him recently' if they had viewed and analysed him through 'your eyes' with ZERO DURABILITY which thankfully they did not. Toby is currently in training, with the club focusing on building up his body and fitness levels to be ready for second half of season in which if all is going well, will be an absolute blessing for all us Cat supporters.

--------------------------------------------------

Repost - with Toby Conway long-term view - Toby was drafted in 2021 with pick 24

With Toby only being 21yo, he is still only a baby as far a big 'long term' ruckman are concerned and I wouldn't start having 'any concerns' with him for at least two years unless there were medical reports to suggest otherwise. I mentioned earlier that Max Gawn is a excellent guide when reviewing Toby, so I've quickly Google'd and come up with this A1 Overview of Max Gawn's career up-to-date which I think seems not to far off the mark but I do stand to be corrected if it is proven that any of this information is incorrect, if so please let me know.

But yeah, I just think in the full context of Toby Conway's future, this is a good guide to go by with Max taking a full 6 years to become Melbourne's number ruckman in 2015 after being drafted in 2009.

AI Overview
Learn more

Max Gawn is an Australian rules footballer who plays for the Melbourne Football Club. He was born on December 30, 1991.

Early career

• Drafted by the Melbourne Football Club in 2009
• Made his AFL debut in 2011
• Knee and hamstring injuries affected his first four seasons
• Became Melbourne's number-one ruckman in 2015

Achievements

• Selected for the All-Australian team in 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022
  
  
• Won the best and fairest award in 2018 and 2019
  
  
• Led Melbourne to their first premiership since 1964 in 2021
  
  
• Named captain of the Melbourne Football Club in 2020
  
  
• Holds the club record for the most All-Australian blazers

Current status

• Signed a new contract with the Melbourne Football Club until the end of 2027
  
  
• Considered one of the top players in the competition's history
  
  
• A cult hero and fan favorite of the Melbourne Demons

That is all fine and dandy. But I have heard the argument way too many times that because max Gawn was a late bloomer after injury that Toby is going to be the same. One example is an indicator of nothing.

You keep comparing Conway to Damien Bourke. Damien Bourke had no durability either and hardly played. He is just as instructive a comparison as is Gawn. Dawson Simpson is a similar player example, and he never came good either.

Toby has shown no evidence thus far that his body can hold up to the rigours of vfl footy, let alone afl footy. He is a long shot.

 

[iameviljez]

I watched hawk first hand play APS footy and by god… freak player is an understatement.

Basically ball kicked to hawk.. hawk marks… rinse repeat.. all game.. 3v1 also.. plus his carnival games he dismantled the no2 draft pick Scott gumbleton at CHF.

He would have gone no1 in a heart beat. Carlton didn’t have any quality key forwards at the time.

Hawk came on with a bang on the scene, he was inconsistent.. but his best was still something of a wow and reminded you how gifted he was, often taking a specie ( he had a huge vertical leap) or kicking bags of 4-5 goals.

He had to reinvent himself at one stage from an old school goal square wrestling forward to becoming a mobile forward working up and down the field, which took several years to reinvent himself with.

And just the confidence needed to come, too. Sometimes when players are too big as juniors, it rattles them when they play against men IMO.

 

[PhatBoy]

Hawkins is, in many ways, not a reasonable comparison to Neale because so much was different about them.

Hawk was a star junior forward and would probably have gone #1 in an open draft. Neale went #33 as a ruckman.

Hawk started playing seniors almost straightaway (but not as a regular). Neale only cracked them at age 22.

Hawk's stats were far better, but he was playing in a team of generational superstars. Neale is in a side which can be very good on its day, but is hit-and-miss.

Hawk was still getting dropped after 70-odd games, and went on to become a superstar. That is very unusual, even for the big guys.

His stats actually weren’t that much better which was one of the noticeable things about the comparison. Better, yes, but not by a lot.

Yes there are a lot of differences in the backgrounds of the two of them - albeit there are a few similarities too in that Neale was, like Hawkins, also a star athlete away from footy. You would have to wonder how many more games he would have played by now in a weaker forward line.

It’s not the whole ‘just you watch, he will be a superstar’ thing or ‘every great forward was still in and out of the team for their first 50-100 games.’ Because that’s not true; I for one don’t think Neale will be a superstar. And I know that most great key forwards WERENT getting dropped that late in their career.


But:
Most great key forwards - and yes there are exceptions - weren’t playing anything like their best footy in their first 50 games.

Kennedy - 49 goals in 45 games over his first 4 seasons. Was at an age not dissimilar to Neale when he began to find his feet.

Jack Riewold won 3 Coleman medals and he had less than a goal a game after 25 games. It began to click in his third season, suddenly in his fourth it did completely.

Roughead kicked 46 goals in his first 50 games but then really hit his straps.


All these players have different age profiles, backgrounds, team situations etc. but the fact is that they took a while for things to come together.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

geelong_crazy26: I have no issue with this at all (above highlighted red) but when calling a spade a spade mate, you need to look at the overall context which is something at times some people do not do very well, thus making the spade a spade comment out of sync. and unreasonable. It's not even a knock, it's just that in certain situations some folk are better at analysing overall context better than others but one thing I will say personally geelong_crazy26: and that is Shannon Neale is extremely important to the Geelong structure and that we are a better team with him being in the side. All awhile, as he continues grow and develop into an excellent AFL footballer, which one day I'm sure he will be..... and GO CATS !!!

If you are referring to the overall context as either A) people get sensitive and defensive when a player is criticized, unless i am personally attacking something unrelated to football such as his appearance or beliefs or anytging else non-football related.. Then others need to read the context a little better. This is a football forum, to discuss all things fooyball, including things not going so well.. Which means both team level and individual level.

But if you mean the context of shannons contribution to the team, i have discussed that we may need to look at some point dropping him if his output continues and run a smaller more mobile forward half playig through ollie and cameron as our targets.

Both the above sent several people into sensitve outbursts.

This is a footy forum, to discuss good and bad at a football level. Some people struggke to read the context of this

 

[PhatBoy]

He was ok last year. Kicked his 3 at best, the occasional 2 goal haul and 1 here and there.

Hopefully he turns it around at some point.

He does take the occasional quality grab that makes you think “ oh jeez what if?”

Well that’s the thing - and his actual kicking is pretty good too - so he has the tools whereby if he can get to the right spot often enough and the delivery is good you’d think he would be a factor.


Remember too that right now our game is very chaotic which probably doesn’t help.

 

[Gazza Greatness]

That is all fine and dandy. But I have heard the argument way too many times that because max Gawn was a late bloomer after injury that Toby is going to be the same. One example is an indicator of nothing.

You keep comparing Conway to Damien Bourke. Damien Bourke had no durability either and hardly played. He is just as instructive a comparison as is Gawn. Dawson Simpson is a similar player example, and he never came good either.

Toby has shown no evidence thus far that his body can hold up to the rigours of vfl footy, let alone afl footy. He is a long shot.

We can argue to the cows come home but only time will be the final decider, so let's just leave it at that but I'm to be sure backing the club on this one in regards to their thoughts and decision making on Toby one day being a top AFL ruckman and hopefully that will be in the 'near future' than not.

 

[Hinkley29]

I think the proof is well and truly in the pudding with any Tom Hawkins hindsight talk.

And yep my username was from hawk. I am an ex APS kid myself and saw Hawkins up and personal and boy was he a freakish talent… was a fan before he walked in the doors.

He showed elite talents from the get go.
I recall his first two games against Carlton then Melbourne.. was rising star favorite after those games and hailed as the next tony locket. Can’t say I have even seen 1/10th that level of talent from neale yet.

Tom Hawkins was awesome from about game 80 onwards. No doubt about that, he is a club great. But that is not a relevant comparison to a bloke that has played 20-odd games.

Your comment that Hawk was talked up as the next Tony Lockett is very telling. It is true. But it is also true that he was playing a Tony Lockett style game early in his career. Ie. lead up forward from the goal square. Kick mark style of player. Neale is not afforded the luxury of playing that style of game. He is playing the role that Hawk played in the second half of his career - ie. big forward who is expected to play from goal square to half back. Either be the deepest pack mark taregt, but also be the target 80m out from opposition goal when we have to dump kick out of defence.

The Tony Lockett style role doesn’t exist in today’s footy. Neale doesn’t have that luxury, which why comparing the 2 at the same stage of their careers is folly.

 

[Hinkley29]

We can argue to the cows come home but only time will be the final decider, so let's just leave it at that.

Sure thing

 

[Generalissimo]

Jon (blonk) Ralph should come out and publicly apologise for incorrectly reporting something and putting a blemish next to Dempsey's name.

Jon Ralph is a malicious little grub who always seems to be trying to get people suspended for things.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Well that’s the thing - and his actual kicking is pretty good too - so he has the tools whereby if he can get to the right spot often enough and the delivery is good you’d think he would be a factor.


Remember too that right now our game is very chaotic which probably doesn’t help.

In happy this conversation is going a bit more civil now. To be clear i have no agendas against players, i just discuss what i see and think.

He seems to be a little off with his leading patters and timing.. In fairness this is a collaborative effort between all forwards to make and create space for one another and work as a well oiled unit. Ollie is pretty bad at this if anyone is guilty as i feel he wants to jump in the way and take the mark himself over creating a highway for someone else to lead into.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Tom Hawkins was awesome from about game 80 onwards. No doubt about that, he is a club great. But that is not a relevant comparison to a bloke that has played 20-odd games.

Your comment that Hawk was talked up as the next Tony Lockett is very telling. It is true. But it is also true that he was playing a Tony Lockett style game early in his career. Ie. lead up forward from the goal square. Kick mark style of player. Neale is not afforded the luxury of playing that style of game. He is playing the role that Hawk played in the second half of his career - ie. big forward who is expected to play from goal square to half back. Either be the deepest pack mark taregt, but also be the target 80m out from opposition goal when we have to dump kick out of defence.

The Tony Lockett style role doesn’t exist in today’s footy. Neale doesn’t have that luxury, which why comparing the 2 at the same stage of their careers is folly.

Very true, which is why hawk ultimately had to reinvent his whole game of footy at one point.

 

[Heckler]

Like Hawkins and Nathan ablett, if we are actually using quality forwards and not lemons as examples.. he just simply needs to contribute at the level. I don’t think right now he is giving enough to warrant 22-23 games this year if this form continues

Only Gazza Snr was an AFL ready player
Hawkins Nathan Mooney needed time

Initially Neale just lead at the ball
But was clueless in using his body
He did not get the best defender

He appears to be overcoached
Now he is looking for the contact
Rather than just going at the ball
He now gets their best defender
Also gets double teamed at times
Learning when to nudge opponent
How to body guard the Drop Zone
How much push back, get away with
Plus all the positioning tactics etc

Keep playing Neal now if you want
Neal to produce come final time.

 

[Hinkley29]

Very true, which is why hawk ultimately had to reinvent his whole game of footy at one point.

He did it to an amazing level. One of my all time favourite players. Love that guy.

For the record, I think there is a 0% chance that Neale has a hawk like career. But I do think he can be a very good key forward when he gets it all together. He certainly has ability.

My better half comments when she watched cats games that Neale looks like a “confused child” who should have a coach on the field oz-kick style telling him where to stand. I don’t think it is quite that drastic, but he is definitely still learning the game and his role.

 

[Strange Cat]

Can’t believe this is still continuing even with a win

 

[Romeoh1]

In happy this conversation is going a bit more civil now. To be clear i have no agendas against players, i just discuss what i see and think.

He seems to be a little off with his leading patters and timing.. In fairness this is a collaborative effort between all forwards to make and create space for one another and work as a well oiled unit. Ollie is pretty bad at this if anyone is guilty as i feel he wants to jump in the way and take the mark himself over creating a highway for someone else to lead into.

Ollie’s timing is slightly off too -they’ll sort it.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I think it would be pick 15 and pick 35 ish.
He can just walk next year.

Doubt it.
You don't trade a player with Butters leadership and skill for that. They would just wait til 2026 and run the risk if that's all that's offered.

 

[Tony Barber]

Doubt it.
You don't trade a player with Butters leadership and skill for that. They would just wait til 2026 and run the risk if that's all that's offered.

And they'll get pick 10?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Not meaning to sound derogatory or condescending Pure_Ownage: but I find comparing Dawson Simpson with Toby Conway NOT a very good comparison 'at all'. For one, Dawson Simpson was a 'big boned' and heavier man which means to say with his body height and size opposed to weight and bone density meant he was always going to be prone to structural issues as time went by, which is exactly what did happen. And secondly, Dawson Simpson was NEVER recognised at any stage in his career as a possible top 3 ruckman in the AFL, not even remotely so, in fact we were always hoping Dawson could just make it to a AFL ruckman standard but that is all.

Compare that to Toby Conway, who from the the moment he stepped through the Geelong doors, the clubs long term ambitions were for Toby to be one of the 'AFL's top ruckman' and certainly Geelong's best ruckman since Brad Ottens and Steven King. I've said this many, many times now Pure_Ownage: but Toby Conway is a 'deadset clone' of former Geelong captain and top VFL ruckman in Damian Bourke in every facet and importantly, NOT 'big boned' like Dawson Simpson as they, Toby and Damian could almost be considered identical twins in another lifetime, this is what you need to go by and btw.... GO CATS !!!

Yes he was. Go back to 2012 and part of 2013 before his knee injury and some people were saying he was our solution and would be a top 5 ruck in the league. The club put too much faith in him (when up until then his durability wasn't great) which is why they let West and Stephenson go and made other decisions like not taking Grundy which bit us. Dawson played a lot of his career at 107-109kg and Conway is a similar height and weight so they are very comparable. For the record I think Conway is a better natural tap ruck than Dawson was but he has exactly the same durability problems.