Preview Changes vs Sydney

[King Elvis]

I've met him, I like him.

 

[Deaneus!]

I've met him, I like him.

I bet he likes you too

 

[Wood_Duck]

Based on Sanderson's interviews, cadence, grasp of language, he doesn't strike as a reflective personality or deep thinker. I think he's emotionally intelligent in a relatable capacity and that is what drives his influence of club and players. I think he might be limited without quality acumen around him.

Quoted, just in case people need a laugh.

 

[DangerSloane]

Why are people suggesting Martin will be left in the side? I doubt he will ever be seen in crows colors again and rightly so

To be fair to him the first game hes given is in conditions that are the worst for him.

 

[King Elvis]

I bet he likes you too

I'd hope so.

Seriously, he is a lovely guy, very polite, friendly, well spoken and thoughtful... None of which is particularly relevant in this discussion (unless people are attempting to shift the goal posts away from his actual footballing performances).

I love Joel Selwood, reckon he's the best captain in the league, but he's been ordinary for a month. It can be masked by the fact Geelong are still winning, but still.

Baccs, just for you, I checked out Selwood (who has been quiet for half the season) vs VB;

Player Statistics Comparison

Nathan Van Berlo Name Joel Selwood
Adelaide Crows Team Geelong Cats
Midfield Position Midfield
170 Career Games 145
West Perth Origin Bendigo
June 6, 1986 Date of Birth May 26, 1988
26yr 11mth Age 25yr 0mth
184cm Height 182cm
84kg Weight 87kg
2004 National Draft Last Drafted In 2006 National Draft
Round 2, Pick #24 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #7
Adelaide Crows Last Drafted By Geelong Cats
2013 Stats for Season 2013
7 Games 10
12.3 Kicks Per Game 9.8
5.9 Handballs Per Game 12.6
18.1 Disposals Per Game 22.4
4.9 Marks Per Game 3.8
0.3 Goals Per Game 0.8
0.4 Behinds Per Game 0.3
1.3 Tackles Per Game 5.6
0 Hitouts Per Game 1.2
3.3 Inside 50s Per Game 4.1
0.9 Goal Assists Per Game 1.2
0.9 Frees For Per Game 2.2
1.1 Frees Against Per Game 1.3
6.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 10.3
11.1 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 12.0
12.9 Effective Disposals Per Game 17.1
71.3% Effective Disposals % Per Game 76.3%
1.9 Clangers Per Game 2.6
0.1 Contested Marks Per Game 0.2
0.1 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.6
1.1 Clearances Per Game 4.4
1.0 Rebound 50s Per Game 0.9
0.3 One Percenters Per Game 1.3
0.1 Bounces Per Game 0.1
81.7 Time On Ground % Per Game 83.5
$370,200 Dream Team Price $447,800
67.9 Dream Team Score Per Game 93.0
$382,400 Supercoach Price $521,600
71.4 Supercoach Score Per Game 104.2

 

[jenny61_99]

Again, same question. Let's not deitise our decision makers - they are just people.

Based on Sanderson's interviews, cadence, grasp of language, he doesn't strike as a reflective personality or deep thinker. I think he's emotionally intelligent in a relatable capacity and that is what drives his influence of club and players. I think he might be limited without quality acumen around him.

You're making the mistake also of granting some degree of immunity to the Adelaide Football Club's processes and decision making, by virtue of it being an organisation. There are good ones, and bad ones. We aren't necessarily good at selecting the right people. And on evidence in the past year or two, we do make poor decisions in some key areas. Why not this one?

Let's be completely rational and critical here - none of us want to dislike one of our players, none of us want VB to be a shit captain, but a lot of us feel that he is. Remember it's just people - educating our players about leadership, making decisions for the betterment of our club, deciding where and when to innovate and what with - it's all people. Very fallible people, like all of us. Let's not assume they're good at these jobs because they have these jobs, especially when the club they run is not the most successful club in its field.

You make some tremendous points amer, thank you for being so thoughtful in your response. I think when I see criticism of some players - particularly those that are seen as whipping boys - I feel that it is our ignorance to some extent that is persecuting players like VB, because we have no real understanding of what their match day role entails. While he might not tick the boxes for us as the viewing public, he must do so for the coach and players.

You make some very salient points re who educates the boys as to what to look for in leader, but do you not think they would have some idea what they themselves look for? Or do you think they are lead by the nose by our coaches? Perhaps you are selling them short based on your own preconceived idea as to what a captain should be?

 

[Kickin_Goals]

1%s not there either.
The tackles and 1%s are just not there the comparison isn't even worth doing, VB predominately getting uncontested ball and otherwise ineffective disposal.
Personally I'd make this compare
Nathan Van Berlo Name Matthew Wright
Adelaide Crows Team Adelaide Crows
Midfield Position Midfield, Forward
170 Career Games 49
West Perth Origin North Adelaide
June 6, 1986 Date of Birth December 14, 1989
26yr 11mth Age 23yr 5mth
184cm Height 178cm
84kg Weight 81kg
2004 National Draft Last Drafted In 2011 National Draft
Round 2, Pick #24 Last Draft Position Round 5, Pick #82
Adelaide Crows Last Drafted By Adelaide Crows
2013 Stats for Season 2013
7 Games 8
12.3 Kicks Per Game 10.1
5.9 Handballs Per Game 7.9
18.1 Disposals Per Game 18.0
4.9 Marks Per Game 4.4
0.3 Goals Per Game 0
0.4 Behinds Per Game 0.1
1.3 Tackles Per Game 3.2
0 Hitouts Per Game 0
3.3 Inside 50s Per Game 3.0
0.9 Goal Assists Per Game 0.6
0.9 Frees For Per Game 1.4
1.1 Frees Against Per Game 0.8
6.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 8.0
11.1 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 9.9
12.9 Effective Disposals Per Game 13.9
71.3% Effective Disposals % Per Game 77.2%
1.9 Clangers Per Game 2.1
0.1 Contested Marks Per Game 0.1
0.1 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.1
1.1 Clearances Per Game 3.4
1.0 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.5
0.3 One Percenters Per Game 0.4
0.1 Bounces Per Game 0.2
81.7 Time On Ground % Per Game 76.8
$370,200 Dream Team Price $345,500
67.9 Dream Team Score Per Game 71.5
$382,400 Supercoach Price $368,400
71.4 Supercoach Score Per Game 74.5

 

[amer]

Highly debatable, but since neither you, nor I have ever actually met Sando I don't think either of us is in a position to make definitive statements about how intelligent he is or isn't.

That's why the club got Leigh Matthews to help out with the selection process. He has vast experience in coaching and player management and knew exactly which sort of questions to be asking. I have every confidence that Sando was the best candidate available.

The process of appointing Sando was almost the complete opposite of the farce which was conducted when Craig was appointed. This time they spent a lot of time making sure that they had the process right - that they had the best people making the judgement call and that they were asking all the right questions, in order to find the very best candidate.

What's more, I have never heard anything bad said about VB or his leadership, by anyone who has actually met him. I've read plenty of opinions here on BigFooty, by people who clearly have no understanding what leadership really is - none of whom have ever actually met the man. Every single person who has met him has only glowing things to say about him as a person and as a leader. I'll take the word of those people, who actually have a valid point of reference, over those basing their opinions on nothing more than his weekly on-field performances.

I recognise that a lot of people feel that he's a shit captain. That's obvious from reading the many threads on the subject here on this board. What's equally evident is that 99% of people categorise leadership almost entirely as "the ability to inspire their fellow players through heroic deeds on the football field". That's a seriously flawed understanding of what leadership is. The problem lies with people's understanding and accepted definition of leadership, rather than VB's actual leadership itself.

What I would really love is for the club to explain why they view him as being such a great leader. What it is that sets him apart from the other players in the group. The time for this would probably be when they announce him as Captain again in early 2014. I get the feeling that they're going to have to explain it anyway, given the groundswell of support for Dangerfield and/or Sloane as potential replacements.

Like, we're playing football here, you recognise this right? We can say his off-field stuff is great and he receives glowing reports from those who meet him, and that matters, but we are playing football. Footy. His on-field stuff, and our on-field stuff as a group, is pretty important. Our product is the act of playing the game. It has to matter, a lot.

You're also insulting the intelligence of a lot of people when you talk about understanding leadership. Do you really think...that we don't have any concept of it, how it impacts outcomes, what's relevant, where it can be expressed? I feel like it's you, Vader, who doesn't have a complete perspective on leadership, because you continually skip over the external component to club captaincy. Part of van Berlo's job, knowingly or not, is being a good captain for the entity, beyond the playing group and coaches. We can all deduce he's saying and doing notable things off the field, and perhaps saying the right things on the field too - because there is little in his physical performance. But captaincy, as a role, has a significant external component. It...appears...that this isn't part of our captaincy model. I could be wrong. But he is about the least inspiring captain I've seen in my time observing sport.

You seem to think it's all about the internal, the information that is withheld, how the players feel and what they think, whereas people like me are saying it's about the unit. The whole - the physical outcome for the club. It matters what he does off the field for other personnel, it matters how the supporters receive him, and how he manages himself, but it all comes together to count for one thing only - what we achieve on game day. Every component of the Adelaide Football Club is in place to achieve the best possible outcome for the organisation. And the organisation's mission is to achieve an on-field outcome. Like, do you understand, Vader, that van Berlo's off-field as well as on-field work all exists to achieve an on-field outcome. If another captaincy option can drive us to a better overall on-field outcome for the club, then van Berlo is not the best man for the job. That is the point of debate. We think the players respect him, and they listen to him, but we question whether the sum amounts to the best possible outcome for the club. It's all dress rehearsal aside from the game, which is the outcome, the only product we provide. That is what people buy.

For van Berlo to be our best captaincy option, his being captain needs to net us better on-field performance than we would achieve with another of our players as captain.

 

[amer]

You make some tremendous points amer, thank you for being so thoughtful in your response. I think when I see criticism of some players - particularly those that are seen as whipping boys - I feel that it is our ignorance to some extent that is persecuting players like VB, because we have no real understanding of what their match day role entails. While he might not tick the boxes for us as the viewing public, he must do so for the coach and players.

You make some very salient points re who educates the boys as to what to look for in leader, but do you not think they would have some idea what they themselves look for? Or do you think they are lead by the nose by our coaches? Perhaps you are selling them short based on your own preconceived idea as to what a captain should be?

My problem is right there, that it is implied that we know the answer to this question somehow.

We don't.

 

[amer]

Quoted, just in case people need a laugh.

If this is all you've got in the tank, jibes because of some old debate we might have had, I don't understand why you don't simply private message me and tell me exactly how to feel towards me and why. I won't bite, and I won't dob you in.

No need to dirty the thread up with this stuff wood duck, it's personal and not relevant.

 

[jenny61_99]

My problem is right there, that it is implied that we know the answer to this question somehow.

We don't.

What do you look for in a leader? They aren't complete imbeciles.

 

[MarksGirl-kbcrowgirl]

Hahaha Shitsnake! thats the second funny thing ive read on the Crows board tonight, I should read this more often. What do you guys think the response to Tippett will be when he makes his debut against the Power? Do you think the Port crowd will unload on him? Will Crows fans go to the game just to chuck their 4 and 20 pie at the back of his head? It will be interesting regardless. The AFL should have made him available for this weeks game, it would have been grand stand viewing, surely someone would have jumped the fence?

Tippett will fake injuries so he never has to come back to Adelaide. He's that type of guy he is. Oh and we have Balfours pies here....far too good to through at people like him LOL.

And yes, that is a genuine nickname....I think you can work out how he got it LOL.

 

[FR0GGY]

Tippett will fake injuries so he never has to come back to Adelaide. He's that type of guy he is. Oh and we have Balfours pies here....far too good to through at people like him LOL.

And yes, that is a genuine nickname....I think you can work out how he got it LOL.

And that's saying something!

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Why? ( I understand why but)...

why wouldn't they get that fired up every week?It's like playing well in milestone matches. It's false reality.

Using that sort of extrinsic motivation shouldn't help. If it does, why wouldn't they harness that motivation every week.

That was Neil's theory.

It's an interesting one.

Other coaches use every single trick in the book to win this week. If that means dragging a small percentage of inspiration for an admired colleague then so be it. Their attitude is who cares if we won't have that to rely on every week? If we've got the 4 points then people will be pumped from that, not to mention in a better position on the ladder.

 

[1990crow]

Out: Reilly, Mackay (inj.), Porplyzia
In: Crouch, McKernan, Grigg

Defense to look something like this: (no need for Reilly)
HB: Smith - Talia - Laird
FB: Otten - Rutten - Brown

 

[Mattrox]

My problem is right there, that it is implied that we know the answer to this question somehow.

We don't.

And this is just the point. We don't even need to know because the decision is an internal one. Nothing to do with the supporters.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

That was Neil's theory.

It's an interesting one.

Other coaches use every single trick in the book to win this week. If that means dragging a small percentage of inspiration for an admired colleague then so be it. Their attitude is who cares if we won't have that to rely on every week? If we've got the 4 points then people will be pumped from that, not to mention in a better position on the ladder.

Of course, the coach should use every but of motivation to fire them up this week and then something else next week and so on and so on but why should this week be any different to next or even last? shouldn't they have that will to win anyway?

If they need the anger of Kurt Tippett leaving to beat a good side, what do they use when we play Collingwood, Hathorne, Geelong et el?

If they can find that inner level of motivation, they then become a Geelong like football side and winning becomes a habit, not a reward.

 

[Bicks]

Adelaide's Patrick Dangerfield reckons it would have been nice for the Crows to catch up with Kurt Tippett this weekend.
But the Crows have to settle for meeting the team that took Tippett - Sydney.
Tippett will serve the last of his 11-match ban when the Swans play his former club, who are still rankled by his acrimonious departure.
"It would be nice to be playing against him this week, that is for sure, but it is what it is," Dangerfield told reporters on Monday.
Advertisement
Adelaide lost a home qualifying final to Sydney last year, when Tippett and Taylor Walker headed the Crows' attack. Both will miss Saturday's game, with Walker suffering a season-ending knee reconstruction.
"The team dynamic has changed a little bit since last year," said Dangerfield, who aged 23 will play his 100th AFL game on Saturday.
"Taylor Walker is obviously out and he's one of the better players in the competition, so it's hard to compare our forward line to how it was last year."
The Crows, ninth on the ladder, are yet to defeat a top-eight team after falling short of Fremantle by seven points but Dangerfield said an improved past month was heartening.
"The position we're in, we have got no-one to blame but ourselves," he said.
"But we're on the right track. We have played some good footy over the last month.
"We have been consistent in our effort. We have just had lapses of concentration in games which has cost us a few goals and effect the result."
Dangerfield said the Dockers loss, and an 11-point defeat to Hawthorn three weeks ago, showed Adelaide were within reach of the top teams.
"We have played some really good footy against the better sides ... but it would be nice to knock one of them off," he said.
"It's a great opportunity this week against Sydney, the reigning premiers, to take a big scalp.
"If we play our best footy, we're more than capable of matching it with them."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/crows-wanted-to-catch-up-with-tippett-20130603-2nlb9.html#ixzz2V91qQ03m​

He'll keep Patty...

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Leadership has been an issue at the club for a while IMO. Predates van Berlo and is not confined to the captain.

I don't give two shits about the mid-week stuff. If someone is great at training and speaks well to the players that's fine but they don't need to be captain to do that. And if it isn't backed up during the game then it isn't worth a pile of beans anyway.

I want our on-field captain and on-field leaders to do the following:
1) Provide direction and organisation for team mates in the heat of battle
2) Step up with quality play at the key times

With the first one I never saw it with Goodwin. He just quietly went about his role (very well). I can't remember him ever pointing, gesturing, in people's ear, encouraging anyone, getting the mids together, blocking for McLeod's tagger, talking to players etc. van Berlo the same. He just plays.

The three I do see providing this on-field encouragement, support and direction are Walker (forward line), Rutten (defence) and Dangerfield (midfield). Now, VB and Goodwin may well have been barking instructions the whole time and this isn't picked up on tv but I'm just not seeing it.

And as for the second one, we make the comparison with Maxwell but in that 2009 semi final with us less than a kick up and a minute remaining it was crappy Maxwell who got the all-important centre clearance that Anthony won his free kick from.

In all those dreadful finals there have been periods of the game where it gets away from us and the other team gets on a roll. These are the moments that your leaders need to stand up. If Goodwin, Thompson or Edwards had just got ONE centre clearance each in that horror 3rd quarter in 2009 we would have won that game. Instead the ball just kept on sailing down the Magpies end and our defence was on the hop the entire quarter. They still all get their numbers by the end of the game but it's when that counts.

Our leaders (more than just the captain) aren't making the decisive plays when the game is on the line. They do not do enough to alter the momentum. That doesn't mean that they have to be BOG and get 40 touches. But it means when the other team are hot this is when they step up and win a clearance or force a stoppage or find the boundary or show some composure. They are the first to react, they are the first to respond, they are the first to recognise the seriousness of the situation and they are the first to do something about it... or in other words, they lead the team. Ours don't and haven't since Ricciuto. I do have high hopes for Dangerfield and Walker though.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Of course, the coach should use every but of motivation to fire them up this week and then something else next week and so on and so on but why should this week be any different to next or even last? shouldn't they have that will to win anyway?

The thing Neil didn't understand is that people are human. That's why the whole Edwards farewell game thing went the way it did. He just didn't understand human emotion, because he believed that emotion needed to be removed from the equation.

If they need the anger of Kurt Tippett leaving to beat a good side, what do they use when we play Collingwood, Hathorne, Geelong et el?

Our good play? The confidence from beating Sydney? Who says they'll need to use anything?

If they can find that inner level of motivation, they then become a Geelong like football side and winning becomes a habit, not a reward.

I reckon the Cats find something a little extra when they play Hawthorn.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Where was that confidence Saturday?

You don't think they would have gained some from the week before.

I don't think we need any extra motivation other than to beat a good side and to keep our season on track.

 

[beartoo]

amer said: ↑

Again, same question. Let's not deitise our decision makers

You use a word you have invented and at the same time question Sando's intelligence?
For the record, the word is deify.
That's what I think you meant anyway.​

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Where was that confidence Saturday?

You don't think they would have gained some from the week before.

From falling in against North Melbourne after trailing all day? Of course not.

I don't think we need any extra motivation other than to beat a good side and to keep our season on track.

Easier said than done.

If we just need a WIN to get it all together, then surely you'd grab whatever motivation is available.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Let's be completely rational and critical here - none of us want to dislike one of our players, none of us want VB to be a shit captain, but a lot of us feel that he is. Remember it's just people - educating our players about leadership, making decisions for the betterment of our club, deciding where and when to innovate and what with - it's all people. Very fallible people, like all of us. Let's not assume they're good at these jobs because they have these jobs, especially when the club they run is not the most successful club in its field.

Actually, I don't see any basis for the assumption that fans are entirely rational in their assessments. I don't feel it's that dramatic a claim to suggest that there are posters on this board who have an emotional response against van Berlo as captain, and are incapable of assessing his performance as a captain rationally.

 

[ftmch]

What I would really love is for the club to explain why they view him as being such a great leader. What it is that sets him apart from the other players in the group. The time for this would probably be when they announce him as Captain again in early 2014. I get the feeling that they're going to have to explain it anyway, given the groundswell of support for Dangerfield and/or Sloane as potential replacements.

I think the very fact you that the club needs to come out and explain to the supporter base why he is such a great leader, in itself, probably suggests that we're on the wrong track with this one.