Politics Communism - One More Try From Utopia?

[DivideandMultiply]

When does the worker not benefit from their own labour in a capitalist society? If you work for someone, you own the pay you receive which is simply currency to trade your labour for whatever good or service you need or choose. The product you created or service you rendered in the employ of someone else is theirs which they have purchased from you.

I've never really understood the arguments about ownership of labour in capitalist systems. Help me out.

Socialists believe that the system is inherently unfair, that ownership of the means of production in private hands independent of workers, facilitates capital accumulation. Thus those who own the capital can extort or skim off the top, the surplus value of the labour of said workers.

What you call voluntary exchange, many socialists deem coercive. Like Bangladeshi sweatshop workers haven't simply sold their labour in a free and just way. They can make dollars a day and executives can make millions in quarterly or yearly bonuses, because of the huge return they are netting for stockholders (the owners/rentier class).

What has happened, is that a system that services capital has through historical inertia and predation, concentrated the means of production and distribution in the hands of the owners of capital and tipped the power of negotiation in their favour. In fact capitals power has stretched even further to coercion of government and perversion of any system that protects labour, or rights in competition with the property rights (of a select few), thus leaving workers in a position that they have no choice but to toil in said conditions, in some cases toiling in virtual servitude, where the surplus value of their labour, which is significant, is stolen and redistributed to others. We literally have a system that is geared to funnel the lower classes, through debt and lack of access or opportunity, into work where that surplus can be extracted, in some cases by force (think student loans in the US).

Socialism isn't about bolstering the size of government, but limiting the concentration of capital (which will allegedly lead to a more just society) either by revolutionary or evolutionary means. By redistributing to, or facilitating the ownership of the means of production by workers, you weaken the systems ability to compel people to give up that surplus labour in exchange for survival. Workers co-ops, the voluntary communism of kibutz and libertarian municipalism, are all ways people have tried to work towards said goals, without either revolutionary overthrow of the state or immediate state intervention. Here the the individual largely owns the benefit of their labour, or voluntarily shares it with a community, which is facilitated by shared collective ownership of the means of production and thus the benefits of returned capital.

Basically your position is a libertarian one. It one could argue, ignores systemic issues, historical injustice and the coercive nature of modern capitalist societies and assumes individuals start from a free, fair and even playing field, where they can negotiate the value of their labour in good faith.

 

[ShanDog]

Cheers for the detailed reply DivideandMultiply.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Cheers for the detailed reply DivideandMultiply.

No probs, it's pretty messy and I wrote it at speed. I would love to give a more detailed, well constructed and less jargon heavy reply, but I'm lazy and busy.

This is a pretty good and entry level explanation of socialism, the nature of it's definition and it's relationship with the state. It's kind of loose and shouty, because of Richard's elderly audience in the clip, kind of like having Larry David give you a polisci lecture.

Worth a listen for anybody interested in politics or political theory.



As an aside, modern polemics and discourse is littered with what are known as thought terminating cliches. It really boxes in our brains and makes it hard to not just reflexively lean back on the reactionary truisms we have accumulated. I know that I genuinely have to work at pushing past my own shitty internal takes and do some actual reading or investigation if I want to understand an issue.

Zizek is a professional troll, but this is always a good (if philosophically pulpy) primer for making me second guess my opinions and if they are the product of ideological conditioning.

 

[spinynorman]

I'm not a communist at all, but I think it's funny that there have been around two dozen countries that have been communist, with varying degrees of success, and we are willing to write off the whole ideology as unworkable and flawed beyond saving, completely ignoring any successes such as the defeat of Nazism or the rebuilding of crippled nations.

At the same time we ignore the horrendous failures of capitalism, such as the enslavement of a continent, some of the most bloody wars in human existence, and the potentially catastrophic harm caused to the environment.

No system is perfect, but they all work to some degree, just for different people. If capitalist nations were really so convinced that communism would inherently fail, you would think they wouldn't be so committed to doing everything in their power to ensuring that happened.

 

[strung_out7]

I'm not a communist at all, but I think it's funny that there have been around two dozen countries that have been communist, with varying degrees of success, and we are willing to write off the whole ideology as unworkable and flawed beyond saving, completely ignoring any successes such as the defeat of Nazism or the rebuilding of crippled nations.

At the same time we ignore the horrendous failures of capitalism, such as the enslavement of a continent, some of the most bloody wars in human existence, and the potentially catastrophic harm caused to the environment.

No system is perfect, but they all work to some degree, just for different people. If capitalist nations were really so convinced that communism would inherently fail, you would think they wouldn't be so committed to doing everything in their power to ensuring that happened.

Rebuilding of crippled nations. Please provide an example?

 

[spinynorman]

Rebuilding of crippled nations. Please provide an example?

Cuba in 1959 was run by the Mafia, with the people unemployed, impoverished, uneducated and in poor health. The steps taken, particularly on the latter two points, constituted a major turn around.

Vietnam's rise out of the Vietnam War is a success story. Ditto Yugoslavia out of World War II. The Russian economic recovery in the 1920s after World War I and the Civil War.

 

[strung_out7]

Cuba in 1959 was run by the Mafia, with the people unemployed, impoverished, uneducated and in poor health. The steps taken, particularly on the latter two points, constituted a major turn around.

Vietnam's rise out of the Vietnam War is a success story. Ditto Yugoslavia out of World War II. The Russian economic recovery in the 1920s after World War I and the Civil War.

Just not so good in Eastern Europe, Cambodia, North Korea and now Venezuela, as well as not being so good for the 45 million dead Chinese.

 

[spinynorman]

Just not so good in Eastern Europe, Cambodia, North Korea and now Venezuela, as well as not being so good for the 45 million dead Chinese.

Venezuela has never been communist.

As I said earlier, there were some horrendous failures and tragedies in communist nations. We hold them up as reasons as to why communism is inherently bad.

But then we don't hold up Indonesia in the 1960s, Belgium in the Congo, the deaths of indigenous Americans and Australians, the slave trade, Chile under Pinochet, British India, Rwanda and Apartheid, not to mention numerous wars over the centuries, as to reasons why capitalism is also inherently evil.

 

[Procrastinator35]

This is a pretty good and entry level explanation of socialism, the nature of it's definition and it's relationship with the state. It's kind of loose and shouty, because of Richard's elderly audience in the clip, kind of like having Larry David give you a polisci lecture.

Worth a listen for anybody interested in politics or political theory.

No one is listening to a 2 hour Uni lecture on an internet forum....Least of all on political theory....Only mugs like me do that.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Just not so good in Eastern Europe, Cambodia, North Korea and now Venezuela, as well as not being so good for the 45 million dead Chinese.

To be fair, Venezuela was in a far worse state before a change in style of government, which was neither actual socialism or communism. I mean, capital is still largely in private hands.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

No one is listening to a 2 hour Uni lecture on an internet forum....Least of all on political theory....Only mugs like me do that.

I am used to posting on a forum/subreddit that mainly discusses politics and media crit. Soooo bad habits.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I am used to posting on a forum/subreddit that mainly discusses politics and media crit. Soooo bad habits.

I liked Slavo's tape/take on Ideology though....A perfect encapsulation & synopsis for much of what happens on the SRP board.....Very clever.

And having grown up in the back-streets of the Western suburbs, very relate-able also.....Kudos.

 

[ShanDog]

Zizec is an interesting cat. But some of his stuff is very insightful.

 

[ShanDog]

No one is listening to a 2 hour Uni lecture on an internet forum....Least of all on political theory....Only mugs like me do that.

You don't give enough credit to people. For every loudmouth slogan chanter, there are educated and/or intelligent people who value learning.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I liked Slavo's tape/take on Ideology though....A perfect encapsulation & synopsis for much of what happens on the SRP board.....Very clever.

And having grown up in the back-streets of the Western suburbs, very relate-able also.....Kudos.

Perverts Guide to Cinema and Perverts Guide to Ideology are both worthwhile viewing.

He has some very good pop cultural critiques though, but is also a walking meme and hot take machine.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Zizec is an interesting cat. But some of his stuff is very insightful.

His opinions on current politics are really just bait/a form of self promotion via absurdity, provocation or generating outrage. His real business is cultural and media criticism, hence why he is s such a media hound.

Neat clip, looking at Chomsky (empiricist) vs Zizeks often Lacanian post structuralism.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

If you like Chapo herculez09 , try Citations Needed.

Less comedic and more an episodic focus on an issue of the week.



I tend to think it's better than Chapo.

For anybody interested in Chapo, here is an interesting episode and then some obligatory clips of dunking as a primer.









Their main schtick is the intersection of social media, pop culture and politics, through an extremely ironic and rather offensive left lens. They absolute destroy centrist Democrats and alt-right CHUDs alike. It's good listening.

ShanDog Procrastinator35

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Actually just because they are funny as * and offer generally very perceptive and biting criticisms of the media:

 

[ShanDog]

Cheers DivideandMultiply - lots of new material to look at when I'm up at all hours with a newborn

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I finally signed up to be a Grey Wolf this morning.

It's gonna be fun going back and listening to episodes I haven't heard yet.

I'll give Citations Needed a go this week, too!

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I finally signed up to be a Grey Wolf this morning.

It's gonna be fun going back and listening to episodes I haven't heard yet.

I'll give Citations Needed a go this week, too!

Oh heck yeah. Citations Needed is good.

BTW, the latest paywalled Chapo episode is an interview with Glenn Greenwald, which hopefully is spicy and entertaining. I have an epic list of worthwhile and actually listenable left/political podcasts. I honestly think this is their medium, much like talkback is for conservatives, and youtube vlogging is reactionary pedants.

This is pretty much a comprehensive guide to good leftcasts.



My favourites are The Dollop (history/comedy), Intercepted (news/current affairs), The Magnificast (Christian left), Citations Needed (current affairs/topical deep dive), Struggle Sessions (left pop culture crit), No Cartridge (left gaming crit), Radio War Nerd (hard news/foreign policy), Season of the Bitch (fun feminist leftcast), Behind the News (news/current affairs) and Economic Update (economic news/discussion). Stuff like Discourse Collective, Zero Books and General Intellect Unit if you want something more thinky. Street Fight if you just want to hear two friendly midwesterm working class battlers talk politics and about smokin dat loud.

That seems like a lot, but I usually listen to only one or two podcasts regularly, then just pick a new episode every week from my podcast lists. I have to walk and use PT a lot, so theres about 1-2 hours a day commuting. Given I'm in the lab or in front of a computer for sometimes 12 hours+ a day, listening to something to break up drugery or whilst you walk and think is helpful.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Cheers DivideandMultiply - lots of new material to look at when I'm up at all hours with a newborn

No problems, if you get drawn into the dirtbag left canon just don't listen to Chapo's evil twin of a pod Cum Town around your family. That kind of irony poisoned, hyper offensive comedy is for headphones, away from your wife and best kept secret.

Sex with your dad jokes, don't lead to a lasting marriage.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Oh heck yeah. Citations Needed is good.

BTW, the latest paywalled Chapo episode is an interview with Glenn Greenwald, which hopefully is spicy and entertaining. I have an epic list of worthwhile and actually listenable left/political podcasts. I honestly think this is their medium, much like talkback is for conservatives, and youtube vlogging is reactionary pedants.

This is pretty much a comprehensive guide to good leftcasts.



My favourite are The Dollop (history/comedy), Intercepted (news/current affairs), The Magnificast (Christian left), Citations Needed (current affairs/topical deep dive), Struggle Sessions (left pop culture crit), No Cartridge (left gaming crit), Radio War Nerd (hard news/foreign policy), Season of the Bitch (fun feminist leftcast), Behind the News (news/current affairs) and Economic Update (economic news/discussion). Stuff like Discourse Collective, Zero Books and General Intellect Unit if you want something more thinky. Street Fight if you just want to hear two friendly midwesterm working class battlers talk politics and about smokin dat loud.

That seems like a lot, but I usually listen to only one or two podcasts regularly, then just pick a new episode every week from my pocast lists. I have to walk and use PT a lot, so theres about 1-2 hours a day commuting. Given I'm in the lab or in front of a computer for sometimes 12 hours+ a day, listening to something to break up drugery or whilst you walk and think is helpful.

I've just finished listening to the Greenwald episode. It was less funny than usual but I really enjoyed his perspective on the Trump/Russia saga.

At the moment, I can sit at work listening to podcasts all day - so I have a lot of time to listen to the above.

I tried listening to the Australian one from the list above this morning - Boonta Vista Socialist Club. I didn't enjoy it very much but I think it must be pretty low-rent type stuff.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I've just finished listening to the Greenwald episode. It was less funny than usual but I really enjoyed his perspective on the Trump/Russia saga.

At the moment, I can sit at work listening to podcasts all day - so I have a lot of time to listen to the above.

I tried listening to the Australian one from the list above this morning - Boonta Vista Socialist Club. I didn't enjoy it very much but I think it must be pretty low-rent type stuff.

I like their effort, more than the results. It's very very low key. Maybe that is their schtick, however I don't find it as charming or earnest as say Street Fight.

There is a Virgil v Matt gaming debate posted by No Cartridge which I have to check out. Chapo definitely dipped for a couple of weeks with Amber and Matt gone and the whole group rushing to finish the book, but it's back. The most recent free ep was pretty alright. It's such a great contrast to the banal, box ticking uniformity of PSA. Those guys have just tried to do too much. Not big on the low self awareness most centrist Dems seem to have, but they were refreshing and switched on during the keeping it 1600 days and in early 2017. Now it's just a colourless advertorial for the party. Obligatory tough to be kind criticism of the centre excluded.

 

[ShanDog]

I've just finished listening to the Greenwald episode. It was less funny than usual but I really enjoyed his perspective on the Trump/Russia saga.

At the moment, I can sit at work listening to podcasts all day - so I have a lot of time to listen to the above.

I tried listening to the Australian one from the list above this morning - Boonta Vista Socialist Club. I didn't enjoy it very much but I think it must be pretty low-rent type stuff.

The art of manliness has some good episodes, as well as The Dollop. The latter are commie bastards, but very funny and the history is brilliant.