Toast Contributions to success

[jmac70]

Times have clearly changed!

I do non examples well, usually without meaning to.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I would rather use my praises for:
- Jeff Browne
- Craig Kelly
- Jodie Sizer
- Paul Licuria
- Christine Holgate
- Barry Carp
- Renee Roberts
- Paul Tuddenham
- Craig McRae
- Brendon Bolton
- Hayden Skipworth
- Justin Leppitsch
- Scott Selwood
- Neville Jetta
- Jordan Roughead
- Josh Fraser
- Andy Otten
- Chloe McMillan
- Harmit Singh
- Derek Hine
- Shannon Collins
- Matthew Foster
- Nadine Rabah
- Jarrod Wade
- Paul Turk
- Liz Dunne
- Anthony Stoitsis
- Peter Tyler
- Ben Jankovski
- Dean Filopoulos
- Liam Fern
- Josh Boehm
- Clare Pettyfor
- Etc.

I.e. people at the club rather than people that have left.

Okay, fair enough. Can you please elaborate on your praise of Liam Fern?

 

[Jelly Bean]

I have to say that I’ve been very uncomfortable all year and particularly post grand final with no recognition of Buckleys contribution and also others like Ned Guy.

I feel like Buckley set the foundation, we defend better and tackle better than any other team, yes Macrae enabled the flair but he also has a much better environment to work in. The camaraderie and chemistry was built under Buckley and Macrae has taken that to another level.

Ned Guy I felt was a bit of a scape goat, he did what he was told. Most importantly he had the courage to rectify the situation that ultimately enabled us to bring in McStay, Hill, Frampton and Mitchell. We got a poor return for Treloar and Grundy other clubs have since handed over first round picks to offload high end talent. They did say other clubs would follow and we really got ahead of the curve and set ourselves up for success.

I don’t think we win this premiership without Buckleys devotion and stewardship, and the way he gracefully departed (unlike his experience with Malthouse) and continued to support the club. Ned guy similarly key, recognised the error and fixed it. We don’t win without his sacrifice.

Floreat Pica

I could buy the acknowledgement of contribution from Bucks, but I can't get my head around Ned Guy.

The two things that really stick out for me from his reign of terror were the trading away of our future first round pick (which ended up being pick 2) to get access to two players that we delisted after their minimum contracts were up (Poulter and McMahon). Even we thought at the time that our first round would have been 8-12, it was still a silly move.

And secondly, the signing of Grundy for such a big long deal was a clear mistake at the time in my view.

 

[magpies42]

I could buy the acknowledgement of contribution from Bucks, but I can't get my head around Ned Guy.

The two things that really stick out for me from his reign of terror were the trading away of our future first round pick (which ended up being pick 2) to get access to two players that we delisted after their minimum contracts were up (Poulter and McMahon). Even we thought at the time that our first round would have been 8-12, it was still a silly move.

And secondly, the signing of Grundy for such a big long deal was a clear mistake at the time in my view.

Can’t disagree with your assessment on both counts, however I fee blame for those two decisions rests with others.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Can’t disagree with your assessment on both counts, however I fee blame for those two decisions rests with others.

Who do you think is to blame?

I think you are suggesting that there was pressure from above for those decisions, but I don't see any real reason to put the responsibility of list management decisions on the list manager.

 

[60 Yards Out]

Spot on.
I'm happy to show my gratitude to Buckley for doing his very best to be successful as a player and coach, but it's serious overreach to attribute our success in 2023 to what he did years ago.

We won this flag because of Fly and his assistants, Graham Wright with his handling of list management and having serious input in appointing the coach and of course the playing group who were allowed to thrive and express themselves under the guidance of the current coaching panel.

Totally… especially when you consider that the club’s success has come with a radical shift away from Bucks’ game plan.

 

[jmac70]

I doubt Bucks would want any recognition. He would be happy we won, that’s it.

All the recognition goes to the current coaches and players.

 

[magpies42]

Who do you think is to blame?

I think you are suggesting that there was pressure from above for those decisions, but I don't see any real reason to put the responsibility of list management decisions on the list manager.

My gut tells me Eddie made the Grundy call, there was a heap of pressure on him and the club at the time. He did not want to let him go.

Hine leads the charge on talent selection. Had Poulter come off, Hine would have got the credit. He picked a dud and the pick was wasted.

People like scapegoats, and yes Ned definitely not innocent but he should be commended for leading the fire sale and baring the brunt of criticism. It has set us up.

 

[magpies42]

I doubt Bucks would want any recognition. He would be happy we won, that’s it.

All the recognition goes to the current coaches and players.

He cheered from the sidelines unlike salty malty

 

[Jelly Bean]

My gut tells me Eddie made the Grundy call, there was a heap of pressure on him and the club at the time. He did not want to let him go.

Hine leads the charge on talent selection. Had Poulter come off, Hine would have got the credit. He picked a dud and the pick was wasted.

People like scapegoats, and yes Ned definitely not innocent but he should be commended for leading the fire sale and baring the brunt of criticism. It has set us up.

But I don't put the fault at the selection of Poulter for pick 31 or whatever it was. Picks in the 30s rarely turn out. I put the fault at the feet of whoever chose to split a mid or better first round pick into two 30+ picks. That was Ned Guy, not Hine. Especially when it turned out to be pick 2 - which on the selected order probably would have ended up being pick 3 - Fin Calahan

 

[magpies42]

But I don't put the fault at the selection of Poulter for pick 31 or whatever it was. Picks in the 30s rarely turn out. I put the fault at the feet of whoever chose to split a mid or better first round pick into two 30+ picks. That was Ned Guy, not Hine. Especially when it turned out to be pick 2 - which on the selected order probably would have ended up being pick 3 - Fin Calahan

Yes crazy decision, in hindsight, hinesight or any sight. My bet is they saw Poulter still on the board, they saw him as a 10-15 player and they pulled the trigger as you would. I think the incorrect assessment of his talent was the assumption that undid us. If he was indeed a top 10 talent then you’d be mad not to make the trade.

I can also recall that many were applauding the move at the time.

 

[Fat Jesus]

Bucks is a Collingwood legend as one of our all time great players. He is extremely knowledgeable and a brilliant media commentator. He is also very personable and bleeds black and white.

He was a poor Captain as he was not good at communicating with all players. He expected every player to meet high standards he held himself too. The club sent him for leadership training during his Captaincy. This carried over into his coaching where he surrounded himself with yes men and belligerently coached his way and his way only. He was a poor delegator. He is genuinely a nice bloke but failed to communicate well to the playing group and refused to evolve with the game.

Macraes key to success is business 101. He surrounds himself with leaders and delegates well. He is not intimidated by his support coaches challenging him. He bravely brought in Bolton(former head coach) Leppitsch(former head coach) Hayden Skipworth, Scott Selwood, Josh Fraser, Neville Jetta, Jordan Roughead and Andy Ottens. Its a formidable group. Notebly Leppitsch refused to apply for the Richmond job choosing to stay with this group. Add to this the incredible appointment of Jarrod Wade in contrast to the maligned fitness managers that Buckley had and you have a complete package.

Yes, some of this playing group played under Bucks but recall Pendlebury, Sidebottom and Cox amongst others looked slow and done in Bucks last year. Macrae has rejuvenated the senior group.

The appointment of Graeme Wright as the master manipulator of change was inspired. He had the tenacity to move Bucks aside and Bucks himself said last week it wasn't his choice.

Bucks has such a huge ego that he will feel he missed out with this group but he figuratively had 10 years which is more than enough time to win a flag.

Macrae brought the Clarkson, Hardwick and Matthews style to the club and let Bolton and Leppitsch tweek it and made it his own. Macrae brought engagement with the fans after severe disengagement during Buckleys tenure. Buckley wanted to be a coach. Macrae embraced everyone.

Bucks is a Collingwood legend but his imprint on this team left when he left. We live in the moment, not in the past.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Not that happy with the people supporting bucks in the coaching gig.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Yes crazy decision, in hindsight, hinesight or any sight. My bet is they saw Poulter still on the board, they saw him as a 10-15 player and they pulled the trigger as you would. I think the incorrect assessment of his talent was the assumption that undid us. If he was indeed a top 10 talent then you’d be mad not to make the trade.

I can also recall that many were applauding the move at the time.

I remember. There were a lot of people who were arguing that getting started on the development of two later picks a year ahead of bringing in one early pick was a better outcome for the club. Well, not if we get rid of both players after the minimum time...

I think there were also many who saw it as a crazy move... mid level (or better) first round picks don't ever split into two 30+ picks.

 

[ThePheonix]

But I don't put the fault at the selection of Poulter for pick 31 or whatever it was. Picks in the 30s rarely turn out. I put the fault at the feet of whoever chose to split a mid or better first round pick into two 30+ picks. That was Ned Guy, not Hine. Especially when it turned out to be pick 2 - which on the selected order probably would have ended up being pick 3 - Fin Calahan

I’ve always wondered whose idea that was.

 

[Bianconeri]

No but there are many around. I've wasted many years in this forum and it goes right back to when he took over from Michael Malthouse....in fact it goes back to the days in the 1990s when he was driven to succeed and couldnt tolerate lack of commitment from his team-mates. I say that not as my opinion but the opinion of Tony Shaw who is both a buckley supporter and well aware of his deficiencies in those days especially.

Many Pie supporters - and I use that term loosely - thought that was arrogance and hated him for it.

The problem with that approach, as I see it, is that they hate buckley so much and blame him for everything and they fail to look at geoff walsh and derek hine who had a disastrous term as a list manager - recruiter. They fail to look at the irish performance manager who presided over a ton of soft tissue injuries and the list goes on.

So to me it's like evaluating the mistakes in a game wrongly. You come out with the incorrect conclusion that all you have to do is to change the coach. Fortunately, graham wright was there.

Whilst it sucks people hated Buckley from the 90’s it’s sounds like you’re just projecting that hatred onto anyone who criticises him.

You can argue as much as you want that Buckley didn’t get a fair go with the footy department in disarray. But at the end of the day once the footy department got its s**t together they came to same conclusion of many us, that Buckley wasn’t the man to take us forward.

I also find the lament of not looking at other ironic since you use the exact same approach when evaluating Hine.

 

[Black_White]

I was never a Buckley as coach fan. Didn’t much like Mick with his slightly weird/cranky demeanour.
But Buckley was a kick away from coaching a Premiership. Had the free that was there been paid there would be no Sheed goal and we would be celebrating #17 today.
Wonder how the discussion on Buckley would be progressing if that sliding door moment had occurred.

 

[Markfs]

Whilst it sucks people hated Buckley from the 90’s it’s sounds like you’re just projecting that hatred onto anyone who criticises him.

You can argue as much as you want that Buckley didn’t get a fair go with the footy department in disarray. But at the end of the day once the footy department got its s**t together they came to same conclusion of many us, that Buckley wasn’t the man to take us forward.

I also find the lament of not looking at other ironic since you use the exact same approach when evaluating Hine.

Hine has been teflon since he started. He does a good job in some areas but he likes the good footballers that no else wants because they don't have the athletic abilities to compete ----- including your namesake bianco...

And he knows nothing about trying to snag something tall later in the draft. He doesnt even bother..

His head got blown up when he took over list management while still being the recruiting manager...only doodooro has that quinella and its been a disaster for essendon too. He started the overpaying of players that he handed over to Ned Guy...

But I like him safely tucked away under the wing of graham wright. Wright has discarded a lot of the useless Hine picks and I think he has verballed Hine to get better athletes...

 

[DopeMaster]

Bucks is a Collingwood legend as one of our all time great players. He is extremely knowledgeable and a brilliant media commentator. He is also very personable and bleeds black and white.

He was a poor Captain as he was not good at communicating with all players. He expected every player to meet high standards he held himself too. The club sent him for leadership training during his Captaincy. This carried over into his coaching where he surrounded himself with yes men and belligerently coached his way and his way only. He was a poor delegator. He is genuinely a nice bloke but failed to communicate well to the playing group and refused to evolve with the game.

Macraes key to success is business 101. He surrounds himself with leaders and delegates well. He is not intimidated by his support coaches challenging him. He bravely brought in Bolton(former head coach) Leppitsch(former head coach) Hayden Skipworth, Scott Selwood, Josh Fraser, Neville Jetta, Jordan Roughead and Andy Ottens. Its a formidable group. Notebly Leppitsch refused to apply for the Richmond job choosing to stay with this group. Add to this the incredible appointment of Jarrod Wade in contrast to the maligned fitness managers that Buckley had and you have a complete package.

Yes, some of this playing group played under Bucks but recall Pendlebury, Sidebottom and Cox amongst others looked slow and done in Bucks last year. Macrae has rejuvenated the senior group.

The appointment of Graeme Wright as the master manipulator of change was inspired. He had the tenacity to move Bucks aside and Bucks himself said last week it wasn't his choice.

Bucks has such a huge ego that he will feel he missed out with this group but he figuratively had 10 years which is more than enough time to win a flag.

Macrae brought the Clarkson, Hardwick and Matthews style to the club and let Bolton and Leppitsch tweek it and made it his own. Macrae brought engagement with the fans after severe disengagement during Buckleys tenure. Buckley wanted to be a coach. Macrae embraced everyone.

Bucks is a Collingwood legend but his imprint on this team left when he left. We live in the moment, not in the past.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

I do recall Fly saying that when he first inherited the group that he’d never seen a playing group training so hard with such a level of camaraderie, or something to that effect.

Some credit has to go to Bucks for building that over ten years. Doesn’t just happen by accident.

 

[magpies42]

I do recall Fly saying that when he first inherited the group that he’d never seen a playing group training so hard with such a level of camaraderie, or something to that effect.

Some credit has to go to Bucks for building that over ten years. Doesn’t just happen by accident.

And the fact that despite all the issues none of the players wanted to leave.

 

[DopeMaster]

And the fact that despite all the issues none of the players wanted to leave.

Bucks actually had the group pretty tight knit until the forced firesale which was none of his doing.

It was noble but in a very misguided way for him to take the lead on speaking with Treloar on that, always should have been Walsh.

 

[kartanoman]

Whilst it sucks people hated Buckley from the 90’s it’s sounds like you’re just projecting that hatred onto anyone who criticises him.

You can argue as much as you want that Buckley didn’t get a fair go with the footy department in disarray. But at the end of the day once the footy department got its s**t together they came to same conclusion of many us, that Buckley wasn’t the man to take us forward.

I also find the lament of not looking at other ironic since you use the exact same approach when evaluating Hine.

At the end of the day, any of us can point to what they believe is the root cause of the problem but, when we all look at the analysis behind that determination of root cause, we'll find symptoms which may, or may not, be tied to that cause in and of itself. In other words, you take a step back, attempt to look at the whole thing systematically while doing your best to recognize your own bias and try to acknowledge there are likely other direct causes which are worthy for consideration.

At the end of season 2022, I found a program hosted by Dermott Brereton called "The Conversations That Could" where he brought in Buckley to speak about his self-awareness journey following his first year out of the Collingwood Football Club and in the media. Pay attention to the conversation from about 36:47 onward which he speaks about McRae's success in his first year at the Club and his thoughts about where he fits into that bigger picture.



Peace!

 

[frizzle]

Spot on.

I'm happy to show my gratitude to Buckley for doing his very best to be successful as a player and coach, but it's serious overreach to attribute our success in 2023 to what he did years ago.

We won this flag because of Fly and his assistants, Graham Wright with his handling of list management and having serious input in appointing the coach and of course the playing group who were allowed to thrive and express themselves under the guidance of the current coaching panel.

 

[gouki88]

He cheered from the sidelines unlike salty malty

Bucks bleeds B&W, Malthouse has no specific allegiance.

 

[magpies42]

Bucks bleeds B&W, Malthouse has no specific allegiance.

He worked against his ‘boys’ because he was salty.

 

[sr36]

At the end of the day, any of us can point to what they believe is the root cause of the problem but, when we all look at the analysis behind that determination of root cause, we'll find symptoms which may, or may not, be tied to that cause in and of itself. In other words, you take a step back, attempt to look at the whole thing systematically while doing your best to recognize your own bias and try to acknowledge there are likely other direct causes which are worthy for consideration.

At the end of season 2022, I found a program hosted by Dermott Brereton called "The Conversations That Could" where he brought in Buckley to speak about his self-awareness journey following his first year out of the Collingwood Football Club and in the media. Pay attention to the conversation from about 36:47 onward which he speaks about McRae's success in his first year at the Club and his thoughts about where he fits into that bigger picture.



Peace!

Bucks worked his arse off, but was essentially the wrong personality to coach. Would have been a great 2IC - Leppa style.