Countering the Don't Argue

[SBD Gonzalez]

lol love all these heros coming up with ways to bring down Dusty. Professional footballers have been trying for years and they all find themselves flat on their asses.

That's why I'm asking if football can learn something from other disciplines, like martial arts. Wouldn't be the first time.

If there was such a thing as someone being truly uncounterable, the entire martial arts world would collapse. Martial arts, to the brief degree that I was involved in it, says that there are always counters to any action.

Honestly, if I'd known that opening this thread was going to prompt such a jizzfest from Tigers supporters I would have thought twice. (Newsflash! Although Martin is easily the standout, there actually are other exponents of the DA currently playing the game.)

You start to wonder, if Dustin Martin is the indestructible superhuman force that Tigers fans say he is, why they haven't won half a dozen flags with him.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Most of the time you're caught out on a don't argue, you go in for a tackle only to be stiff armed, it all happens very quick.

Trying to grab the arm doesn't work, only way is to attack the hips.

But deflecting the arm? No-one seems to want to answer that. Knock it to the side and keep moving on in to effect the tackle in one movement.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Wow.

 

[MosquitoBrigade]

That's why I'm asking if football can learn something from other disciplines, like martial arts. Wouldn't be the first time.

If there was such a thing as someone being truly uncounterable, the entire martial arts world would collapse. Martial arts, to the brief degree that I was involved in it, says that there are always counters to any action.

Honestly, if I'd known that opening this thread was going to prompt such a jizzfest from Tigers supporters I would have thought twice. (Newsflash! Although Martin is easily the standout, there actually are other exponents of the DA currently playing the game.)

You start to wonder, if Dustin Martin is the indestructible superhuman force that Tigers fans say he is, why they haven't won half a dozen flags with him.

Don't be silly mate no one is saying he's an indestructable superhuman force, just a player that is very strong and hard to tackle, i don't think anyone can dispute that.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Don't be silly mate no one is saying he's an indestructable superhuman force, just a player that is very strong and hard to tackle, i don't think anyone can dispute that.

Hmm. I was having a dig, but a few posts look pretty over the top to me.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Hmm. I was having a dig, but a few posts look pretty over the top to me.

Footy supporters can be a bit over the top!!!!

Seriously, what makes Dusty's don't argue so good is a combination of

• great technique - hits fast and hard with an open hand. So the impact is more like a punch than a push.
• Strength, both upper body and core. So even if you avoid the don't argue he is very hard to stop getting a possession away.
• Speed, it's too fast to easily deal with. this makes some of the suggestions hard to do. grabbing his arm is difficult if you are trying to tackle him and it's over in a fraction of a second as he times it right when you commit to the tackle and so are moving forward in a way that makes it hard to grab something 60cm from his body. if you hold off to get that arm he runs past.
• he's different to every other player so only Richmond players really get proper practice on him. Every one else gets once of twice a year to try with the real deal.
• Smart use of the don't argue. Dusty doesn't have it as his first call all the time. When he reckons he can run through a tackle, or wants to off load via a handball he'll take the tackle. So if you set up for the don't argue he's got the advantage. If you go for the tackle see above.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Martin was caught holding the ball more than any other this year.

The plot thickens

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Footy supporters can be a bit over the top!!!!

Seriously, what makes Dusty's don't argue so good is a combination of

• Speed, it's too fast to easily deal with.

This is where I think martial arts techniques could be of use. Sheer speed simply isn't an excuse in martial arts. If someone thrusts an arm at you, you have time to deflect it. All footballers have pretty good reflexes.

 

[Dr Tigris]

This is where I think martial arts techniques could be of use. Sheer speed simply isn't an excuse in martial arts. If someone thrusts an arm at you, you have time to deflect it. All footballers have pretty good reflexes.

I sort of covered that. What I am saying is that the tackler hits a point when just beyond arms reach of Dusty where they have to decide to tackle or corral him. If you decide to tackle you go lower and drive shoulders first with arms extended, but your shoulders lead you body) toward Dusty. When you do that your ability to block his arm with any force is compromised greatly. Martial artists just wouldn't fight like that - except wrestlers where they won't get a strike. If they corral him to stop the don't argue he gets a disposal. So the martial artist thing gets lost a bit to me. I'm sure a good black belt or pro boxer could deflect his strike. But deflect and tackle in one fast and powerful movement - that's a different thing.

Other wise:

For most players they aren't as good at it, and/or just don't get the power in it. So even if they try the don't argue they don't create space for themselves the way Dusty does.

And those that maybe can generate the impact (it's not a push, it's a hit) don't have the balance and talent of Dusty. So the don't argue for those (I can't think of anyone though) that can hit as hard as him is ineffective because they can't use the space they create.

I reckon now we know what a really good don't argue can do, players will be learning how to do it. Can you imagine if someone like Mummy could don't argue like Dusty! A trail of wreckage behind him.

 

[Sub_Zero]

I love to see a good Don’t Argue executed.

But one of the other things I love about our game is that it is constantly evolving; even willing to take on techniques from other sports. Tactical trends emerge, and then we start to see the emergence of tactics for countering those tactics. Look at the way tackling techniques have evolved, and the way we’ve seen the emergence of counter-techniques for dealing with tackles. (You might even say the Shuey is currently on the other foot.)

So, why haven’t we really seen much evidence that any thought has been put into countering the Don’t Argue? (Hereafter referred to as the DA.)

Currently, if a DA is well-timed and placed, the inevitable result is opponents falling away like extras in a bad action movie.

But it’s not as if (despite what you might think from the name) there’s no possible answer to it. No situation is beyond remedy. Footballers are strong, toned, balanced, and gifted with much faster reflexes than you or me.

Here’s one thought, borrowing from another sport.

Although my entire martial arts experience consists of a mere 18 months of kung fu training several decades ago, there are two relevant things I still clearly remember from that time –

1. keeping a low centre of gravity, and

2. deflecting your opponent’s attacks, rather than copping the full brunt.

I see both of these as potentially useful options for defenders to keep in the front of their minds when contesting with a player known for using the DA.

The low centre of gravity - because the DA is mostly about knocking an opponent off balance, or at least stopping them in their tracks. Might we see a time when players approaching a known Don’t Arguer adopt more of a crouching stance, making themselves hard to knock off balance, and also a smaller target in the process? Might be worth a thought.

And the deflection – my modest kung fu training taught that, with practice, a blow from even a much bigger and heavier opponent can easily be knocked harmlessly to the side. It’s all a question of being ready for it so you can react instantly, and let’s face it, most exponents of the DA are well known for it, so there’s little excuse for not being ready.

Could footballers be trained to be ready to deflect the outthrust arm, and continue forward in the same movement, to implement a tackle? We might start to see players contemptuously put out the DA, only to find it being brushed harmlessly aside, and themselves bundled unceremoniously onto their arse, or over the boundary line.

Over to those of you with far greater martial arts (and indeed football) experience.

Why do people call it a "Don't argue" you're fending off an opponent, why not just call it a fend off?

 

[loki04]

Weird more players don't just grab them by the hand/wrist.

Dusty or not, if they've got the ball in one arm and you've got their other arm, you're dictating what happens next.

Ever tried to catch someone's arm who have a modicum of strength and speed while moving? they just reef it away before you can, likely you will land it effectively 1/10 times. Watch his dont argue video on Rich site they have footage of players attempting it but losing the strength battle and he either pushes them off or powers out of it.

 

[loki04]

Why do people call it a "Don't argue" you're fending off an opponent, why not just call it a fend off?

Because for the last 15 years BT has been calling it a "don't argue", well before Dusty started and it has become part of the footy vernacular.

 

[loki04]

Flawless, Perfect technique. Weller slightly unbalanced when he threw the arm out,

Weller didn't have the power to break it, Martin on the other hand would of either free'd his arm of powered back into him and then pushed off again.

Watch Martins .legs in all his videos when doing the fend off, always well balanced and grounded ready to explode once contact is made.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I sort of covered that. What I am saying is that the tackler hits a point when just beyond arms reach of Dusty where they have to decide to tackle or corral him. If you decide to tackle you go lower and drive shoulders first with arms extended, but your shoulders lead you body) toward Dusty. When you do that your ability to block his arm with any force is compromised greatly. Martial artists just wouldn't fight like that - except wrestlers where they won't get a strike. If they corral him to stop the don't argue he gets a disposal. So the martial artist thing gets lost a bit to me. I'm sure a good black belt or pro boxer could deflect his strike. But deflect and tackle in one fast and powerful movement - that's a different thing.

Other wise:

For most players they aren't as good at it, and/or just don't get the power in it. So even if they try the don't argue they don't create space for themselves the way Dusty does.

And those that maybe can generate the impact (it's not a push, it's a hit) don't have the balance and talent of Dusty. So the don't argue for those (I can't think of anyone though) that can hit as hard as him is ineffective because they can't use the space they create.

I reckon now we know what a really good don't argue can do, players will be learning how to do it. Can you imagine if someone like Mummy could don't argue like Dusty! A trail of wreckage behind him.

Thanks for your good points.

But re the bolded, before injury curtailed my participation, we were being trained to deflect and strike in one action. I didn't go far enough with it to speak with any authority on it, and admittedly it involved a counterstrike, not a tackle, but I'm still not convinced it can't work in a footy tackling situation.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why do people call it a "Don't argue" you're fending off an opponent, why not just call it a fend off?

Because BT.

 

[Hoops]

Why do people call it a "Don't argue" you're fending off an opponent, why not just call it a fend off?

DON'T ARGUE!

 

[cannot]

I was about to post this.

Perfect. Its the lifting the body and slamming it into the turf that makes is so beautiful

that was really nice

however in theory Martin > Weller

 

[Matera92]

It needs to be a team tackle mentality with him, every time he has the ball, multiple blokes need to jump him and tackle to hurt.

One on one? Good luck.

 

[cub]

Or just learn to live with it

 

[telsor]

Or just learn to live with it

Exactly...It happens a few times a game. While it's good/bad (depending on which side you're on) when it does happen, it's not really worth obsessing over.

 

[Football Tragic]

This is where I think martial arts techniques could be of use. Sheer speed simply isn't an excuse in martial arts. If someone thrusts an arm at you, you have time to deflect it. All footballers have pretty good reflexes.

I think everyone is missing one of the most obvious problems with facing the tactic - its unexpected. Players are taught how to tackle in one way and when combating 21Richmond Players (or pretty much the rest of the competition in fact) that tackle works. Dusty is usually working in congestion, with players trying to win the ball everywhere around stoppages especially given Richmond's new game style. So when Dusty gets the ball most players don't realize its him or are already half way through their tackle before they do and by then its too late.

Trying to combat the Don't Argue only works if players have time to prepare and change their approach. What usually happens under these circumstances is they confuse themselves and he ends up just running away with his opponent even attempting any tackle at all.

So for all the ideas of deflecting arms, grabbing hands, tripping etc that all sounds good but in the heat of the contest, how many players have time to think and adjust their tackles? This is biggest reason Dusty's 'Don't Argue' works so well because of the shock/surprize/confusion it creates.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Thanks for your good points.

But re the bolded, before injury curtailed my participation, we were being trained to deflect and strike in one action. I didn't go far enough with it to speak with any authority on it, and admittedly it involved a counterstrike, not a tackle, but I'm still not convinced it can't work in a footy tackling situation.

I'm sure if people trained to specifically deal with Dusty's don't argue he'd get punished. But given he is pretty much the only guy doing it the way he does, my guess is nobody specifically trains for him.

If you had a player that was a top notch boxer they might be able to deflect and continue on with a tackle. But we are starting to get into 'what ifs'.

 

[lenny&carl]

Let's be honest, there's only one player in the league who consistently does it well, Dusty is far away the best player in the league at this fend off.

Players need to counter it, but grab and twist the arm? Come on, the counter can't be to dislocate his shoulder or damage his arm.

Society is a lot less forgiving these days. We break arms now.