Craig Vs Ayres

[Bojangles17]

good win todays guys....

Im a tiges fan and woul like to think that Ayres is a long way from our short list ...tel me something...

I didnt see the game today... what was diferent to Ayres style or was it simply a more spirirted performance

cheers

 

[Stiffy_18]

I think there was a significant difference. Under Ayres (this year) the game plan seemed to be to run into space to receive the ball. Often that space is out wide so we ended up taking th elong way home and taking shots at goal deep from the pockets. We basically avoided the corridor and lacked run from the backline.

Today we went through the corridor and we only had 4 shots from difficult angles. We also had plenty of run from HB with teh likes of Reilly getting 30 possesions. Our structure around stoppages was different and our forward line structure was tweaked a bit to have more open spaces by basically playing a 3 man forward line.

Its early days and in a big win you usually don't have many flaws but so far so good. Hope it continues,

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I think there was a significant difference. Under Ayres (this year) the game plan seemed to be to run into space to receive the ball. Often that space is out wide so we ended up taking th elong way home and taking shots at goal deep from the pockets. We basically avoided the corridor and lacked run from the backline.

Today we went through the corridor and we only had 4 shots from difficult angles. We also had plenty of run from HB with teh likes of Reilly getting 30 possesions. Our structure around stoppages was different and our forward line structure was tweaked a bit to have more open spaces by basically playing a 3 man forward line.

Its early days and in a big win you usually don't have many flaws but so far so good. Hope it continues,

Good summary Stiffy, and they were the main differences.

While I was pleased to see Ayres go, I reckon he could be a genuine consideration for a 3 year stint at either Richmond or Hawthorn. That's with the proviso that you don't plan to have him there after that.

Ayres is very good at taking undisciplined soft teams, and converting them to fiercely competitive teams in his first stint. It's always in his second stint that the wheels start to drop off, as they did both at Geelong and Adelaide.

After the initial 3 years he needs to be replaced by a coach with vision and good match day skills.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
Good summary Stiffy, and they were the main differences.

While I was pleased to see Ayres go, I reckon he could be a genuine consideration for a 3 year stint at either Richmond or Hawthorn. That's with the proviso that you don't plan to have him there after that.

Ayres is very good at taking undisciplined soft teams, and converting them to fiercely competitive teams in his first stint. It's always in his second stint that the wheels start to drop off, as they did both at Geelong and Adelaide.

After the initial 3 years he needs to be replaced by a coach with vision and good match day skills.

I agree whole heartedly.

I think Ayres would be a perfect fit for Richmond but as you say for a period of 3 years where he will turn them into a competative outfit that gives 110% every week and if they lose they lose on their own terms. Richmond needs someone thats bullet proof like Gary and has no nonsense approach. As you say after his 1st stint Tigers should replace him by more tactical coach.

 

[Bojangles17]

Originally posted by macca23
Good summary Stiffy, and they were the main differences.

While I was pleased to see Ayres go, I reckon he could be a genuine consideration for a 3 year stint at either Richmond or Hawthorn. That's with the proviso that you don't plan to have him there after that.

Ayres is very good at taking undisciplined soft teams, and converting them to fiercely competitive teams in his first stint. It's always in his second stint that the wheels start to drop off, as they did both at Geelong and Adelaide.

hmm interesting comments, my impressions of ayres was that in both appointments he was blessed with pretty decent lists yet struggled to take them much above what the wider footy community expected...eg geelong were a powerful outfit, he got them into finals..a GF once ..on other nose dived...exactly the same at Crows without GF appearance....the other fault is list development, it was only a few seasons back that geelong began really drafting youth...similarly at crows he went for the comfort factor , experience...I dont rate him...

anyway good luck to Craig..my feeling is 5 wins plus and he gets the job it's good to see new blood taking it up to the establishment..bare in mind though if times are tough the media are barbaric on coaches that have little pedigree, witnessed it with Gieschen and Brittain

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Bojangles17


bare in mind though if times are tough the media are barbaric on coaches that have little pedigree, witnessed it with Gieschen and Brittain

100% correct. Another good example of this was just how much crap Frawley copped from the media after 4 wins, while at the same time Malthouse escaped criticism with 3 wins on the board.

A similar situation exists with supporters who spat in Frawley, while the pie supporters defend Malthouse.

This in spite of Frawley having a great VFL/AFL career.

While Craig will be in a honeymoon period with the press for the balance of this year, if he is appointed on a permanent basis and doesn't set the world on fire, just watch the media AND supporters tear not only him to shreds, but also the AFC for appointing him!!

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by macca23

While Craig will be in a honeymoon period with the press for the balance of this year, if he is appointed on a permanent basis and doesn't set the world on fire, just watch the media AND supporters tear not only him to shreds, but also the AFC for appointing him!!

Honeymoon will only last till he has consecutive losses.
The problem he faces is that if we pick Craig, the issue of whether we picked the right man (V Wallace) will always be there for the press to drag up.

As soon as we have losses you can guess what the discussions will hinge around.

 

[Bojangles17]

Originally posted by macca23

While Craig will be in a honeymoon period with the press for the balance of this year, if he is appointed on a permanent basis and doesn't set the world on fire, just watch the media AND supporters tear not only him to shreds, but also the AFC for appointing him!!

I recall that Craig was in the running for the west coast job as was our footy manager Greg Hutchison, the locals got wind of it and the media went wild over the possibility that worsfold could be overlooked...will be interesting to see what develops and Im sure that will weigh on your boards mind....Thats why its unfortunate in my clubs position we cant gamble with a rookie coach and need the steele of an experienced campaigner in wallace or eade

 

[dicko]

Malthouse

Mick might not be getting much flak this year, but if the pies dont perform next year, watch the knives come out, and the golden halo may start to slip

Dicko

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Malthouse

Originally posted by dicko
Mick might not be getting much flak this year, but if the pies dont perform next year, watch the knives come out, and the golden halo may start to slip

Dicko

Spot on.

The only reason MM hasn't copped as much flak is because he has a couple of premierships behind him. I am pretty sure he would cop just as much as any other coach if he didn't have premierships to back it up with. None of the candidates for coaching positions have premirships to back them up so all of them will be in the same boat.

Craig would probably cop more but you've got to take the good with the bad.

 

[Nige_Bix]

RE MM and DF

The main reason MM has gotten way with it compared to Frawley, is that he confuses people with the way he talks in riddles and sounds like he is making sense. Also he is generally more highly respected and revered in the footy world than DF.

Maybe it says something about the loyalty of Collingwood supporters [hides] - or perhaps they could see some light at the end of the tunnel, which the Tiger fans couldnt.

 

[jmorg1]

Originally posted by macca23
This in spite of Frawley having a great VFL/AFL career.

Frawley did NOT have a great VFL/AFL career. He played a stackload of games for cellar dwellers St Kilda but achieved fudge all.

 

[Bojangles17]

Originally posted by jmorg1
Frawley did NOT have a great VFL/AFL career. He played a stackload of games for cellar dwellers St Kilda but achieved fudge all.

For all its worth his career compares pretty favourably to anybody in the coaching caper....longest term Club Captain and regular state representative and B&F winner...wasn't his fault they spent more time near the bottom than the top.....

Im struggling to see what your measures could possibly be when detrmining the merits of greatness...when you consider there are more than 600 odd players in the AFL at any one time, there wont be too many that achieve what DF did....

anyway it's irreleveant to their value as a coach....

 

[jmorg1]

Originally posted by Bojangles17
Im struggling to see what your measures could possibly be when detrmining the merits of greatness...

Well compare Frawley's record as a player to Ayres' and you'll see what I mean. Not that the latter was a fantastic coach but player wise I'd say his credentials stand out more.

 

[Bojangles17]

Originally posted by jmorg1
Well compare Frawley's record as a player to Ayres' and you'll see what I mean. Not that the latter was a fantastic coach but player wise I'd say his credentials stand out more.

I dont think you were comparing the two in the first instance , you simply stated that DF was anything but a great player, i reiterate it si irreleveant in the coaching caper as Malthouse and Pagan were both ordinary at best...Malthouse a premiereship player at RFC hard and tough...little else , pagan was a nothing player..it means nothing more than perhaps an invitation to the interview room

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by macca23
Good summary Stiffy, and they were the main differences.

While I was pleased to see Ayres go, I reckon he could be a genuine consideration for a 3 year stint at either Richmond or Hawthorn. That's with the proviso that you don't plan to have him there after that.

Ayres is very good at taking undisciplined soft teams, and converting them to fiercely competitive teams in his first stint. It's always in his second stint that the wheels start to drop off, as they did both at Geelong and Adelaide.

After the initial 3 years he needs to be replaced by a coach with vision and good match day skills.

But there's a problem with this as I pointed this out on another thread.

And that is, that there's no real precedent for this idea of a development coach. You simply can't sack a coach when the team is performing.

Even with the benefit of hindsight it would be difficult to justify not renewing Ayres' contract at the end of 2002.

 

[tinman]

Originally posted by macca23
100% correct. Another good example of this was just how much crap Frawley copped from the media after 4 wins, while at the same time Malthouse escaped criticism with 3 wins on the board.

A similar situation exists with supporters who spat in Frawley, while the pie supporters defend Malthouse.

This in spite of Frawley having a great VFL/AFL career.

Frawley has had a great VFL/AFL career, just not as a coach

You also have to look at how MM handles the media. He dead set intimidates them and he is very terse, sometimes aggressive.

Here in the west a journo from the West Australian newspaper wrote something negative about him. He was locked out from press conferences and refused any club interviews. Result - lost his job.

Funny, after that there was no criticism whatsoever of MM's coaching at the Eagles.

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The problem he faces is that if we pick Craig, the issue of whether we picked the right man (V Wallace) will always be there for the press to drag up.

very good point, it's going to be hard for him to escape this during a rough patch. Especially if Wallace accepts and does well in a new gig, though if he doesn't it becomes a moot point.

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
very good point, it's going to be hard for him to escape this during a rough patch. Especially if Wallace accepts and does well in a new gig, though if he doesn't it becomes a moot point.

It's a very good point.

Adelaide have shown in their last 2 games that there is a very good basis for the incoming coach to inherit and build on.

If we do appoint the lesser qualified Craig, and he fails, the supporters who are patting him on the back today will be calling for not only his blood, but that of the men who appointed him.

If I was on the selection panel I would be hoping that Craig didn't lead Adelaide to victory in any more than 5 of the last 9 games so that they could justify apointing the much highly credentialled Wallace.

Any more wins than that and the panel starts to get caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Bojangles17]

Originally posted by macca23
If I was on the selection panel I would be hoping that Craig didn't lead Adelaide to victory in any more than 5 of the last 9 games so that they could justify apointing the much highly credentialled Wallace.

Any more wins than that and the panel starts to get caught between a rock and a hard place.

Dont forget that the swanies were all set for wallace until an untried Roos spoiled the party with 5 or 6 wins...and they haven't looked back

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Bojangles17
Dont forget that the swanies were all set for wallace until an untried Roos spoiled the party with 5 or 6 wins...and they haven't looked back

I genuinely believe that the Swans will regret this appointment in preference to Wallace.

I hate the brand of football that Sydney play, and from a spectator's point of view they play some very ugly flooding football. They also play a lot of the short, chipping frustrating possession game

If Roos sticks to his current game plan, Sydney will never win a flag as long as his bum points to the ground.