Dees v Bombers 2011

[Kings Army]

Kyle Reimers = possibly premium. Hey, he can kick, he can run, he's had a couple of pretty good 25+ disposal games, why not?

Once you extend it to things like draft position (Blease), NAB cup form (Grimes), almost any player on a list can be described as "possibly premium".

A couple of 25+ disposal games??? What in under 12's?? The fact is he has had zero at AFL level. Why make things up?

 

[Slattery_20]

A couple of 25+ disposal games??? What in under 12's?? The fact is he has had zero at AFL level. Why make things up?

Under 12s, NAB cup, same diff.

The point was flippant. Didn't really bother looking it up. Well done you.

 

[hank31]

Grimes would be your best young midfielder.

Geezz, some of you melbourne supporters need to pull your head outta the clouds.. Your not there yet, your list is potential. Whats to say half of the players dont improve on your list..

Your not premiers yet...

Melbourne by a fair margin.

Essendon are very, very ordinary.

Melbourne aren't great, but are a very good young team. Not expecting them to make finals in 2011, but will improve yet again and should be very strong for a few years from 2012.

A lot can change and a lot rests on injuries, but at full fitness this poll is not a contest.

So ordinary we have taken care of your mob 6 outta the last 7 times we have played..

Hird needs to sit him down and ask him what he wants to be. A footballer or a model. My first point of call would be to get rid of those stupid boots he wears and concentrate on playing footy.

Completely agree Syrus.. I think he needs to be told to earn the boots and the attidude, we might get something outta him on the field that way!

This is possibly the most lopsided poll in BF history.

Melbourne’s upside is brilliant, with one of the best young groups in the game. Essendon on the other hand have few genuine young stars, and a proliferation of average footballers lead by a novice coach, who’s main assistant is a well known control freak, who insists he will play second fiddle to Hird... Lol... now i have heard everything.

Dees will make the 8, and Essendon 16/17. Toss up for the spoon with the Eagles.,

Im getting sick of the arguement that we have few young stars. Says who?
We have plenty of talent on our list. More so than your mob id suggest.

We easily have the best YOUNG spine in the game, to go around it we have blokes like Melksham, Colyer, Zaharakis, Myers, Heppell, Jetta...

No talent?

Your dreaming bud..

Dont get too over excited again failmond supporter. I'd be tipping you guys will finish lower than us next year. Ill put my money where my mouth is too. Or BF account?

 

[Jeremias]

So ordinary we have taken care of your mob 6 outta the last 7 times we have played..

That's completely irrelevant.

To argue that you aren't ordinary is just ridiculous, so don't bother.

If you want to get into that childish fight, go for it. But all I need to do is bring up ladder positions and your argument that you've beaten us this many times in that many games, becomes completely and utterly insignificant - if it wasn't so already.

 

[whelan=legend]

Geezz, some of you melbourne supporters need to pull your head outta the clouds.. Your not there yet, your list is potential. Whats to say half of the players dont improve on your list..

Your not premiers yet...

So which of your young midfielders was better than Grimes? I didn't make any outlandish comments.

 

[hank31]

So which of your young midfielders was better than Grimes? I didn't make any outlandish comments.

Define young....

Grimes is a HBF anyway?

Wasnt just having a shot at you, just all the people that act like melbourne are unreal already, based on draft positions..

 

[Slattery_20]

That's completely irrelevant.

To argue that you aren't ordinary is just ridiculous, so don't bother.

If you want to get into that childish fight, go for it. But all I need to do is bring up ladder positions and your argument that you've beaten us this many times in that many games, becomes completely and utterly insignificant - if it wasn't so already.

Going off ladder positions & wins - Ess to Melb: 12th/10W to 14th/5W, 12th/8W to 16th/3W, 8th/10.5W to 16th/4W, 12th/8W to 14th/7W.
ie, it clearly is a comparison of two ordinary sides, just one side apparently has 2 or 3 kids expected to be superstars, one side apparently doesn't.

 

[Jeremias]

Going off ladder positions & wins - Ess to Melb: 12th/10W to 14th/5W, 12th/8W to 16th/3W, 8th/10.5W to 16th/4W, 12th/8W to 14th/7W.
ie, it clearly is a comparison of two ordinary sides, just one side apparently has 2 or 3 kids expected to be superstars, one side apparently doesn't.

IMO the comparison is between two teams that missed the finals, one which I believe is on the way up, the other going nowhere fast.

Why Carlton had to be involved in the discussion is beyond me. I would have thought that I could give my unbiased opinion on the issue, without childish posters raising my club as an issue, when clearly it has nothing to do with this poll.

I suppose that's just the way of BF, and children will be children.

I maintain my original stance that Essendon are very ordinary, and that I'd put Melbourne comfortably ahead of them. Looking at the results of the poll, I'm certainly not alone. And I can tell you that the club I support has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on this issue.

 

[Andy_Mac]

So which of your young midfielders was better than Grimes? I didn't make any outlandish comments.

Speaking of outlandish hows about this gem.

We easily have the best YOUNG spine in the game

oh dear...

 

[hank31]

Speaking of outlandish hows about this gem.



oh dear...

ok smart arse, whos is better than

Pears

Hooker

Watson

Gumbleton

Hurley

Then 2 rucks of Ryder + Hille (Hille isnt young)..

Its our clubs strength you arrogant twat, tell me who has a better young spine than that?

 

[Slattery_20]

IMO the comparison is between two teams that missed the finals, one which I believe is on the way up, the other going nowhere fast.

It's a commonly held belief.
While I think Dees are marginally ahead, and will (looking at the draw) finish ahead again next year; I don't think there's any huge gap or gulf and we could well surprise.
I think if our 1st & 2nd half of the season was reversed - ie, went 1-9 to start; sacked Knights, then finished 5-5; it'd be a completely different perception. (cf Essendon to Port/Richmond).
Our good wins & performances against good sides in the first half - ie you, Hawks, even the rd 1 loss to Cats - weren't bad at all. People remember recent form.

I suppose that's just the way of BF, and children will be children.

correct.

 

[Spirit of 39]

ok smart arse, whos is better than

Pears

Hooker

Watson

Gumbleton

Hurley

Then 2 rucks of Ryder + Hille (Hille isnt young)..

Its our clubs strength you arrogant twat, tell me who has a better young spine than that?

It's is pretty good, no doubt. However, I wouldn't swap it for:

Frawley (AA, and ahead of Pears due to the fact that he has played more consistently due to Tayte's injuries.)

Garland (Col is a very talented player who has struggled with injury. Will continue to get better.)

Any one of Scully, Trengove, Grimes (Watson is a very good footballer, but the MFC 3 could be anything.)

Watts (Gumbleton has produced more to this point, but Has been in the system 2 years longer. Watts has far more upside.)

Jurrah (Has shown the ability to kick bags of 3/4 goals on a regular basis, something Huley has not done yet.)

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

ok smart arse, whos is better than

Pears

Hooker

Watson

Gumbleton

Hurley

Then 2 rucks of Ryder + Hille (Hille isnt young)..

Its our clubs strength you arrogant twat, tell me who has a better young spine than that?

ok.

Collingwood:

Brown, Reid, Pendlebury, Cloke, Dawes

Adelaide:
Davis, Talia, Dangerfield, Tippet, Walker

by the way Watson isn't young enough to be included in your spine, when you chuck in Melksham or Colyer the quality of your spine is decreased significantly

also, calm the **** down

 

[hank31]

ok.

Collingwood:

Brown, Reid, Pendlebury, Cloke, Dawes

Adelaide:
Davis, Talia, Dangerfield, Tippet, Walker

by the way Watson isn't young enough to be included in your spine, when you chuck in Melksham or Colyer the quality of your spine is decreased significantly

also, calm the **** down

Alright Collingwoods is better than ours, ill admit that! (Thats a premiership spine!)

Adelaide is debateable, Talia hasn't shown anything at AFL level yet.. etc..

I just dont think our list is anywhere near as bad as the so called 'experts' or you guys are making out it is..

On the flip side of that i dont think your list is as good as the 'experts' say.

Wait and see i guess..

 

[hank31]

It's is pretty good, no doubt. However, I wouldn't swap it for:

Frawley (AA, and ahead of Pears due to the fact that he has played more consistently due to Tayte's injuries.)

Garland (Col is a very talented player who has struggled with injury. Will continue to get better.)

Any one of Scully, Trengove, Grimes (Watson is a very good footballer, but the MFC 3 could be anything.)

Watts (Gumbleton has produced more to this point, but Has been in the system 2 years longer. Watts has far more upside.)

Jurrah (Has shown the ability to kick bags of 3/4 goals on a regular basis, something Huley has not done yet.)

Ok heres my take..

Frawley Vs Pears- Out and out gun, will be a star for the next 10 years for you guys, would love to have him + pears together. Only thing on pears side in this argument is age. He is only 20 dont forget...

Garland V Hooker- They would nearly have to be on par, if anything id probably take Hooker over Garland.

Centre- Watson is already a gun, the 3 you mention aren't there yet, but i agree POTENTIALLY the next Judd etc in there.

Watts V Gumby- How can u say that Watts has more upside than gumby? Thats utter crap. He has been in the system longer yes, but he hasnt been playing so he hasnt been developing. A lot of Essendon supporters watched gumby last year as if it was pretty much his first year, Which is fair enough considering he had only had 5 games in 3 years. I'd take Gumby over watts because i simply dont rate Watts at all.. Thats arguement is for another day though.

Jurrah V Hurley- Jurrah is a 3rd tall so doesnt really count toward your spine. Moster full backs would smash him in 1 on 1 contests. I'd definately take Hurley here. As a 3rd id love Jurrah but not as a FF.

Call me biased but thats my opinion.

 

[Hannabal]

Ok heres my take..

I'd take Gumby over watts because i simply dont rate Watts at all.. Thats arguement is for another day though.

Jurrah V Hurley- Jurrah is a 3rd tall so doesnt really count toward your spine. Moster full backs would smash him in 1 on 1 contests. I'd definately take Hurley here. As a 3rd id love Jurrah but not as a FF.

Frawley is only 18 months and one draft ahead of Pears. So the youth card holds little water.

If you don't rate Watts "at all" I'm not sure why anything you utter should be taken seriously. Watts has recently been tested as the fastest player on Melbourne's list over 20 metres, which is extraordinary at 196cms, he has superb skills on both sides of his body and was always going to take time as a young skinny tall. If you can't digest the superb foot skills, clean hands below the knees, superb decision making, and all round class then my advice to you is to give the game away.

Hurley's best position is FB. I know he's done a couple of nice things in the forward line, but his lack of speed and agility isn't best suited there. He's a great reader of the play, so any deficiencies in the leg speed department aren't nearly as relevant in the back half. He'll be a terrific backman, but it still leaves you with a hole to fill at FF in your nominated spine.

I agree that Jurrah is more the Micky O'Loughlin type second or third tall forward, but he gives our forward line a dimension that's hard to quantify. The old "spine" theory has become anachronistic and isn't as elastic as it should be when quantifying all ground talent.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Alright Collingwoods is better than ours, ill admit that! (Thats a premiership spine!)

Adelaide is debateable, Talia hasn't shown anything at AFL level yet.. etc..

I just dont think our list is anywhere near as bad as the so called 'experts' or you guys are making out it is..

On the flip side of that i dont think your list is as good as the 'experts' say.

Wait and see i guess..

Adelaide's i would view as marginally better, Tippet and Walker have shown a lot at AFL level, as has Phil Davis, Gumbleton and Hurley haven't shown as much as their Crows FF and CHF counterparts and Pears and Davis are close, with Pears being ahead, Talia is obviously behind Hooker and Dangerfield is >> than any YOUNG essendon counterpart, (Watson is hardly a Young player)

Essendon's list isn't in bad shape, the midfield is the only area which needs work, i was disappointed that an out and out inside mid wasn't drafted by essendon tbh, e.g Atley or Caddy (who i think was around @ 8) to help Watson, because with Melksham and Colyer you have two promising classy and outside type players

Melbourne's list is still an 11-8 range list in the comp, the thing that bodes well for us is that the vast majority of our list are under 23's

i don't think any 'experts' are saying melbourne current list is of great quality, simply that in the future it might be

 

[Slattery_20]

Yeah spine's a bit over-rated. More guys are better described as lead-ups, freak goal-kickers or pack marks than "CHF" and "FF".

Watts has plenty of upside. Shades Gumby for mine but not by a heap.
Makes space fractionally better, (not really sure whether pace is a huge issue); better agfility/turning circle, better when the ball's on the ground, nicer kick.
Gumby is (and I think always will be) a better mark and a longer kick.

Frawley/Pears = Frawley gets it, would've been very interesting call if Pears had stayed on the park this year.

Hurley's better in traffic directing things. Towards the centre of the ground IMHO. Either goal square would be a waste. His assets are disposal and his brain. Hooker you want to keep out of the traffic because he makes bad decisions & gets caught too much.

 

[Hannabal]

Hurley's better in traffic directing things. Towards the centre of the ground IMHO. Either goal square would be a waste. His assets are disposal and his brain. Hooker you want to keep out of the traffic because he makes bad decisions & gets caught too much.

I think most good key backs alternate between FB and CHB depending on matchups, and the old "goal square" days are gone.

I saw Hurley as a junior and thought he was a natural tough defender with a great boot. At one point I was keen on him for pick one, but I still like what I see with Watts. I'll be surprised if Hurley doesn't spend more time back than forward. Which group has he been training with in the preseason ?

Gumbleton is a fantastic mark. Watts has great hands in marking contests too, but there's no doubt Gumbleton has that confidence in the marking contest that has so far alluded Watts. I think Watts will improve this aspect significantly as he was a very good mark in juniors, but he's got a way to go to reach Gumbleton's level.

 

[Slattery_20]

Gumbie has serious buckets. {So does Carlisle too, btw, who's my smokey to play a lot more footy next year. Gets very little talk/press but really isn't far behind Gumby at all}.

You're probably right about Hurley, will probably play (or at least start) a majority back. Just hopefully with more freedom to get involved and head forward, along with Pears.
Hooker & Fletch hanging back closer to that last line for mine.

Hurley is, {and I think always was going to be} a more 'finished article' than Watts. Wouldn't have been a bad pick but I do see plenty in Watts.

 

[Andy_Mac]

Alright Collingwoods is better than ours, ill admit that! (Thats a premiership spine!)

Adelaide is debateable, Talia hasn't shown anything at AFL level yet.. etc..

I just dont think our list is anywhere near as bad as the so called 'experts' or you guys are making out it is..

On the flip side of that i dont think your list is as good as the 'experts' say.

Wait and see i guess..

So in summery yes your comment was outlandish as you concede the Bombers spine certainly isn’t easily the best and in fact is not even the best at all.

 

[hank31]

Frawley is only 18 months and one draft ahead of Pears. So the youth card holds little water.

If you don't rate Watts "at all" I'm not sure why anything you utter should be taken seriously. Watts has recently been tested as the fastest player on Melbourne's list over 20 metres, which is extraordinary at 196cms, he has superb skills on both sides of his body and was always going to take time as a young skinny tall. If you can't digest the superb foot skills, clean hands below the knees, superb decision making, and all round class then my advice to you is to give the game away.

What about attitude, hardness, aggression.. Watts plays like he is scared, thats my opinion. Ducks his head in marking contests etc. Just dont rate him as a footballer because of this. I know you can play the young and skinny card, but being scared of footsteps isnt something you can get out of someone..
Other than that, it seems he has all the tools, just gotta man up a bit.

Hurley's best position is FB. I know he's done a couple of nice things in the forward line, but his lack of speed and agility isn't best suited there. He's a great reader of the play, so any deficiencies in the leg speed department aren't nearly as relevant in the back half. He'll be a terrific backman, but it still leaves you with a hole to fill at FF in your nominated spine.

I agree i like him better back as well.. Thats why as S20 says, i hope Carlisle comes on and he can play up forward with Gumby.

 

[bombermick]

I must admit I had my doubts about Watts, but I think he started to justify his no.1 selection last year. He has a LONG way to go, but he's incredibly athletic and he has great disposal. He still needs to put on weight and develop a bit of mongrel.

I think Gumby is certainly a better mark and has better endurance. Hurley was always going to be the better player in his first two seasons, but it will be interesting to see if Watts can pass him from here on in. Hurley will probably start forward next season, as he has been training with the forwards. He's better as a defender, but with Pears, Fletcher and Hooker back there it makes sense to play him forward, at least 'til Carlisle demands a position.

Frawley is easily the best of the Melbourne key position prospects. Very good one and one and possesses incredible speed. Got shown up by Jack, so perhaps a little vulnerable against that type of forward.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

I agree i like him better back as well.. Thats why as S20 says, i hope Carlisle comes on and he can play up forward with Gumby.

so basically you think that a person wouldn't have more confidence on a footy field if they had a bigger body and had more strength?? If you go to the gym and put on a few kilos of muscle, are you not going to be more confident walking around the streets? have better body language? etc

.... obviously some players just have that hardness at the ball whatever their circumstance, others need the confidence of a stronger body, others don't have it....

i've seen enough of Watts' to be confident it isn't the last (surely you remember his goal assist to Sylvia against Essendon where Lovett Murray cleaned him up after reaching the ball second) and to also know it isn't the first

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Frawley is easily the best of the Melbourne key position prospects. Very good one and one and possesses incredible speed. Got shown up by Jack, so perhaps a little vulnerable against that type of forward.

Frawley is hardly a prospect anymore after a excellent and AA season, he did get shown up by Jack in round 3 or 4 (from memory) where he kicked 4, but the 2nd time around Frawley held JR to one goal, im confident that he can do well on any type of forward, however all backmen are going to have games where a forward gets the better of them