Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Your arguments are the dumbest.

It doesn’t take all teams 8 years to rebuild.

Look at Brisbane, bottomed out in 2017, were playing finals 2 years later.

Bottomed out in 2017?

2010 - 13th
2011 - 15th
2012 - 13th
2013 - 12th
2014 - 15th
2015 - 17th
2016 - 17th
2017 - 18th
2018 - 15th
2019 - 2nd

Yes 2017 is when they began....

 

[Gavin Excell]

We all know what these threads are about....bantering (aka Stirring) other posters into getting a reaction. The number of bottom half clubs "supporters" who are posting in this thread speaks volumes for the credulity of the arguments. "Do Collingwood need..." to do anything will get you a reaction on this site....it's the means to an ends that runs the AFL media for goodness sakes. Anything Collingwood (especially negative stuff) SELLS cos there's 17 other clubs out there that love nothing better than to hate the Pies.

Clubs at the top of the ladder have had to think outside the square in building up their lists for years now. Geelong for all its natural advantages has won 2 flags in the past 15 years and yet its constantly held aloft by all and sundry as the yardstick in list management and club culture. Collingwood on the other hand has also won 2 flags in the past 15 seasons yet its constantly questioned and ridiculed by the footy media and in here by all other 17 clubs.

It's OK, we get it, we've always got it....you don't like the Pies (for whatever reasons) and that's ok....just don't expect us to roll over and accept drivel when its spoken.

The draft (as it currently stands and has done for the past 5 seasons or so)...is a shambles. The ability to draft gun young players is so heavily biased towards the Academies and father son/s that clubs have had to work around the draft confines in an attempt to develop their lists. You'll notice I didn't say "improve" their lists because in some teams cases its been about developing what might have seemed like pretty basic athletes into GUN players. Both Geelong and Collingwood have had to do this and I'm constantly amazed to see posters questioning Geelong's reliance on Dangerfield or Cameron or Collingwood's on Pendlebury or Sidebottom. Geelong has Blicavs a player brought in as an athlete and developed into the most adaptable player in the AFL....whoa be tied if he ever gets injured because Chris Scott relies on Blic's more than just about any other player. Drafted as a rookie.

Collingwood have just waved goodbye to our favourite Yank. Big Mase had never touched a footy before Collingwood developed him. Now he's a Premiership player and holds the record for contested marks in an AFL Final.

The clubs at the top of the tree have to get lucky with father sons to get access to the best juniors. Otherwise its a chook raffle for picks and you find yourself with 5 or 6 half back flankers.

So.....do Collingwood need to rebuild? Since McCrae joined us (thankyou, thankyou, Wrighty for picking him) we've turned over the list bar a few old blokes and we've pretty much restructured the entire club. We've gone through the truth telling process, the racism trials and the restructure of our medical, financial and recruitment staff. We've found a few kids along the way Harrison was almost embedded in the 22 before he did his knee, Long looks good in the guts and Parker and Steele demanded finals games in the season just past. We have some promising talls coming on (so much so that Checkers and Coxy both were informed that their services we no longer required) and this November we just picked up three new young mids.

To my mind the "rebuild" you all cry out for (because apparently it means we'll no longer be relevant to finals calculations) has already been happening since Fly took control.

I have no intention to debate whether any other club should do X, Y, or Z about their own players because I have only superficial knowledge about their club's inner workings (bar Geelong and the Pies).

I don't think the Pies need to enter a "rebuild" because I'm very confident they've been in one for 4 years already.

This is a good post as it touches on one of the areas that separate good clubs from also rans - player development. Its difficult for us looking in to appreciate what makes one clubs program better than another's. But I find it hard to believe that some clubs with all the draft picks simply get it wrong at selection or other clubs get super lucky drafting in quality players as 3rd round or Cat B rookie picks. Chance and probability suggest thats not likely. If you accept that premise, then it has to be player development as the major influencing factor on a clubs performance

 

[doppleganger]

Bottomed out in 2017?

2010 - 13th
2011 - 15th
2012 - 13th
2013 - 12th
2014 - 15th
2015 - 17th
2016 - 17th
2017 - 18th
2018 - 15th
2019 - 2nd

Yes 2017 is when they began....

And Brisbane is an example of a successful rebuild

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

In 2023 Collingwood were the 4th oldest list in the comp.

There are just a few months difference between 2023 Collingwood and 2026 Collingwood. The age isn't that important. Remove one of Pendlebury, Howe or Sidebottom and we would be back down to at least 4th if not lower. The bigger issue is our lack of AFL experience in our younger players. We don't know if they are good enough to hold the team near the top of the ladder.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

And Brisbane is an example of a successful rebuild

All you gotta do is trade in a 2 time Brownlow Medalist in a trade, get a A grade forward for free with a priority pick, get 3 A grade father/sons, 3 A grade academy players and your rebuild will be complete...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Bottomed out in 2017?

2010 - 13th
2011 - 15th
2012 - 13th
2013 - 12th
2014 - 15th
2015 - 17th
2016 - 17th
2017 - 18th
2018 - 15th
2019 - 2nd

Yes 2017 is when they began....

Yes, 18th is quite literally the bottom of the ladder.

 

[JPetro83]

And Brisbane is an example of a successful rebuild

I am really hoping the crows are on the same path as the Lions. The lions in 2019 2nd, went out in straight sets and straight sets again in 2021 after finishing 4th.
Crows:
2020- 18th
2021- 15th
2022- 14th
2023- 10th
2024- 15th
2025- 1st (shat the bed)
2026- ??

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Yes, 18th is quite literally the bottom of the ladder.

So a rebuild only begins from when you win the wooden spoon?

Hawks never reached the bottom so I suppose you never did a rebuild

 

[Gavin Excell]

So a rebuild only begins from when you win the wooden spoon?

Hawks never reached the bottom so I suppose you never did a rebuild

Not sure that's what SYL intimated

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So a rebuild only begins from when you win the wooden spoon?

Hawks never reached the bottom so I suppose you never did a rebuild

No it doesn’t, but it also doesn’t mean to takes 8 years. Most clubs are adding young talent each year, Collingwood the exception.

What I said is factual, Brisbane bottomed out and were playing finals 2 seasons later.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

This is a good post as it touches on one of the areas that separate good clubs from also rans - player development. Its difficult for us looking in to appreciate what makes one clubs program better than another's. But I find it hard to believe that some clubs with all the draft picks simply get it wrong at selection or other clubs get super lucky drafting in quality players as 3rd round or Cat B rookie picks. Chance and probability suggest thats not likely. If you accept that premise, then it has to be player development as the major influencing factor on a clubs performance

It’s amazing how the clubs with apparent better player development also have high priced imports.

 

[doppleganger]

All you gotta do is trade in a 2 time Brownlow Medalist in a trade, get a A grade forward for free with a priority pick, get 3 A grade father/sons, 3 A grade academy players and your rebuild will be complete...

It appears the rebuild started when they traded for Hodge and Cameron in 2017, and was in full swing in 2018 when they traded for Lyons, Neale, McCarthy and Adams and then finished in 2019 when they added Birchall and C.Ellis-Yolmem as UFAs.

Brisbane had been going to the draft and seeing top 10 picks leave for most of the 2010s - but this wasn't rebuilding??

 

[doppleganger]

It’s amazing how the clubs with apparent better player development also have high priced imports.

Successful clubs actually ensure they have quality senior players at the club to help develop the kids.

I'd argue that GWS had better success more quickly as they actually added some quality senior leaders - J.McDonald, Cornes, Brogan, Power early. And kept sprinkling quality senior players amongst the kids.

GC had GAJ (not a good leader) and then nothing much at all.

It is why the narrative that Collingwood should move on Pendles and Sidey is stupid. They offer more than a couple of random 18-19 year olds, and they will also help our u22s perhaps realise their potential and turn into decent AFL players.

You only need a few kids coming through each year to help turn over the list when you also consider trades, FA etc.

 

[timokane]

I am watching the 2023 grand final this afternoon.
We did it sweet 16

 

[Cyclops]

In 2023 Collingwood were the 4th oldest list in the comp.

...and the youngest lists, how are they doing?

We cant copy Brisbane, as we don't have access to the quality f/s and quantity of academy players.

I dont have the picks to compare but Schulz and Houston surely have played more quality games than the picks we swapped out, and likely will do more at the Pies than those players elsewhere.

I dont buy the cliff. Yes we will fall sometime, but this path has worked for other clubs, and the draft gluttons are mostly cellar dwellers.

 

[bzparkes]

We cant copy Brisbane, as we don't have access to the quality f/s

 

[Mynamesinuse]

...and the youngest lists, how are they doing?

We cant copy Brisbane, as we don't have access to the quality f/s and quantity of academy players.

I dont have the picks to compare but Schulz and Houston surely have played more quality games than the picks we swapped out, and likely will do more at the Pies than those players elsewhere.

I dont buy the cliff. Yes we will fall sometime, but this path has worked for other clubs, and the draft gluttons are mostly cellar dwellers.

But you’ve had early picks and traded out for mature age.
The edge gets closer.

 

[doppleganger]

But you’ve had early picks and traded out for mature age.
The edge gets closer.

We haven't really had the really early picks?

We used pick 34 and a future 1st (ended up 14) to bring in a 25 year old Schultz.

We used pick 36 and future 1st (ended up 18) to bring in Houston.

If we get 250+ games from Schultz and Houston (up to 57 already) it is ahead of the median games you get from those type of draft picks.

The edge only comes if you don't keep up a quality group of senior players...you hope the 18 year old draft pick becomes one in 3-4 years, reality is most don't make it.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

We haven't really had the really early picks?

We used pick 34 and a future 1st (ended up 14) to bring in a 25 year old Schultz.

We used pick 36 and future 1st (ended up 18) to bring in Houston.

If we get 250+ games from Schultz and Houston (up to 57 already) it is ahead of the median games you get from those type of draft picks.

The edge only comes if you don't keep up a quality group of senior players...you hope the 18 year old draft pick becomes one in 3-4 years, reality is most don't make it.

Adding mature age players to an older list keeps them competitive for an extra few years but there is and will be a tipping point.

 

[Cyclops]

Since we took Nick Brisbane have had three, one potentially as good as him and two more high tier.

So since the 2021 draft we have had to pursue another strategy than "wait for f/s" and our academy picks are limited. Still managed to grad 2 though, so we are making full use of available options.

Quick glance at the draft shows the early picks we traded out were use by Jonty Faull and Harry Hustwaite. Are these "franchise" players for the future, or helping Nick now?

Not sure about the picks we traded in, but given we finish high most years we are not in a position to farm repeated high picks like Hawthorn, West Coast, North or earlier Carlton and Brisbane unless we started tanking in 2019. So people think we should surrender 2023, or lose any shot at 2026? It seems stupid.

To my eyes Daicos, Moore and Cameroon are the lynchpins about whom we assemble a flag list. people keep claiming Pendles is a matchwinner, not these days. Sidey had a purple patch early in 2025, but we have multiple wings and halfbacks: essentially Sidey Pendles and Howe are better than rookie wings and backmen whose spot they are blocking out.

Its the mids we need and we drafted 3, and chased others hard in trade. Like Hawthorn we missed out.

Out real weakness frankly is De Goey's groin: he's our only battering ram with decent disposal unless Maynard develops a tank and moves to mid, or Ned Long learns to hit a target.

Had we extracted a fair price from St Kilda I would not have minded a trade, but our brains trust like him and think our fitness guys can get him right. in the last 4 years he's had only a couple of ripping finals, so there's our vulnerability.

Look at the numbers. Did the Pies lose more senior games than anyone else?

The clubs most and least impacted by injuries in 2025

The best and worst injured lists.

www.sen.com.au

According to this, we are mid table for games lost to injury. Which is a cliff apparently.

 

[bzparkes]

Since we took Nick Brisbane have had three, one potentially as good as him and two more high tier.

So since the 2021 draft we have had to pursue another strategy than "wait for f/s" and our academy picks are limited. Still managed to grad 2 though, so we are making full use of available options.

Sure but you were complaining about not having the same access to FS and academy picks that Brisbane have had, yet you got arguably the best player in the game via FS(pick 4), as well as his brother(pick 57 yes but AA and BnF winner, picked around the same point as Harris Andrews) and your captain(pick 9).

Then Collingwood also got Quaynor(pick 13) via their NGA in 2018 as well as Reef McInnes in 2020(pick 23).

So up until last year and this year, Collingwood have actually matched Brisbane for the amount of father son and NGA selections since 2018 taken in the national draft, the difference being that yours were taken earlier than Brisbane's, which is why you tried calling it out. Collingwood also drafted the same amount of players from Brisbane's NGA academy in the ND this year that Brisbane did themselves, albeit later in the draft.

The only true outlier is Harris Andrews, who Brisbane matched a 2nd round bid with pick 61, who was drafted in 2015.

Ty Gallop is too early to call, being a first year player who'll be pushed out of the side by Oscar Allen next year.

TLDR: Collingwood have benefitted more than any other club in the past decade from father son/NGA picks bar Brisbane and Gold Coast. Western Bulldogs might have been up there if not for JUH going AWOL.

The only reason you're complaining about Brisbane is because their picks are more recent although certainly they are in a better spot having unfettered access to academy prospects whilst the rest of us(Collingwood included) actually have to follow AFL guidelines. I certainly won't argue with you on that one.

 

[CanuckSuns]

Yes, forever

 

[No Hassle Hough]

I'm not going to say Collingwood is heading for a cliff / crash, as I don't know their list well enough.

However, I will say that: Established Premiership Coaches will not enter a rebuild willingly, they will top up and try for another flag (even if they have just won multiple).

• Clarkson did it (fail)
• Simmon did it (fail)
• Hardwick did it (fail)

I think Collingwood's best chance of another flag is recruiting an elite Free Agent or two (e.g. Rowell and King).

 

[doppleganger]

Adding mature age players to an older list keeps them competitive for an extra few years but there is and will be a tipping point.

The tipping point comes when you no longer have enough quality senior players on your list.

Adding quality senior players to the list is a pretty good way of ensuring you have enough quality senior players.

Or you could draft kids and just hope that they are good in 4 years (no guarantee) and potentially set your club up for a decade of being uncompetitive if the kids don't come on...and you then have veterans retire.

 

[THE_GUN]

Successful clubs actually ensure they have quality senior players at the club to help develop the kids.

This is 100% correct

Unfortunately people think once a player is over 30 then they are finished but players like the ones you have named are so important to the culture and development at clubs they are virtually on field coaches and leaders that take responsibility and demand responses from the kids.

I can only look at Richmonds rebuild and be thankful we have the likes of Prestia , Hopper , Taranto , Nankervis , Lynch , Vlastuin , Short still around the club not only for game days but also during the week when these kids are being taught about what it takes to become the best.

We have seen North have to recruit older players to do this and now see the eagles after 4 years do the same and get support for the kids even though they are 2nd stringers at their previous clubs