Toast English Class is in. Welcome to the Dogs Tim English Pick 19

[bresker]

Then last year we got Smith at no.7. Wouldn't be surprised to see him end up in the top 3. Maybe even no.1

Still a lot of development to go for players in that draft. Smith is AFL ready. After Tom Boyd or McCartin I'd never pick a big key forward top five, though. I'm not convinced anyone over 2m tall will ever make a key forward full time, including English. AFAIK there hasn't been one since Paul Salmon and only for a limited time.

 

[Yojimbo]

I wonder where English would go if we redid the 2016 draft with what we know now. Definitely higher than 19; most likely top 10. Lipinski at 28 was a nice pick too. Tom Stewart the biggest slider from that draft though. Pick 40.

2016 was a good draft there were a few taken after Tim who would have gone past him, but speak to
me in two to three years when he has slipped the midfielder and has become a 100+kg monster
ruck until then it is just potential, horrible word potential.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Bulldog 'a young Gawn' | Fox Sports Videos

AFL: If this workrate is anything to go by, young Bulldog Tim English will be mixing it with the best ruckmen in the AFL very soon.

www.foxsports.com.au

Another play stuck in my mind late in the game on the left wing near our forward 50 - English runs away from Gawn, who looks no chance of catching him, and Timmy scoops it up cleanly (and then I can't remember what happened ).

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Another play stuck in my mind late in the game on the left wing near our forward 50 - English runs away from Gawn, who looks no chance of catching him, and Timmy scoops it up cleanly (and then I can't remember what happened ).

Did he kick it to someone in the forward pocket?

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Did he kick it to someone in the forward pocket?

I honestly can't remember

 

[Mofra]

Another play stuck in my mind late in the game on the left wing near our forward 50 - English runs away from Gawn, who looks no chance of catching him, and Timmy scoops it up cleanly (and then I can't remember what happened ).

There was one play he scooped the ball up and fired off a quick and ball, like watching Dougie back in the day.
No 207cm player has the right to move like that.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

The guest on Bob's podcast this week.



Oh and I dont need you to reply telling me you're over Bob.

 

[Bazza28]

The guest on Bob's podcast this week.



Oh and I dont need you to reply telling me you're over

It was so much better when there was no ex-bulldogs in the media right ?

 

[bresker]

I love the podcast though not quite enough to sit through all the fightback ones.

Will be listening to Tim

 

[Doggy Dan]

I honestly can't remember

Hit Sam Lloyd on the tit at HFF, Timmy looked awesome in that passage of play.

 

[ScragCity]

Tim's marking has improved so much since the start of the year it's hard to believe. Seeing him launch above 206cm Rory Lobb and pluck one brought a tear to my eye. He's so good around the ground it's honestly ridiculous. Will be the best ruck in the comp, the only question is when.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Tim's marking has improved so much since the start of the year it's hard to believe. Seeing him launch above 206cm Rory Lobb and pluck one brought a tear to my eye. He's so good around the ground it's honestly ridiculous. Will be the best ruck in the comp, the only question is when.

He really is great around the ground. Noticed myself say to one of the kids on Sunday "that's our ruckman" when Timmy was running around like a midfielder.

 

[Testekill]

Honestly I was watching the highlights for the Melbourne match and English actually beat Gawn around the ground. Lost the hitouts because Gawn is the best/second best ruck in the game but I reckon English won the battle around the ground.

Also his silk around the ground was really impressive compared to the Freo rucks

 

[footyfan000001]

I didn’t need this bloke to get 40 hitouts and dominate Grundy tonight. Nor did I expect him to make it a 50/50 battle. Just wanted to see him work hard around the ground, work Grundy up and down and be physical At ground level. Grundy smashed him around the ground and Timmy got pushed off 2 tackles by guys much smaller than him. Understand he is still young - but tonight should be a real kick in the as* for him. I know he wasn’t the only one but we need him working his backside off once he loses a tap. No excuses next week vs Pittonet / De Koning.

 

[X_box_X]

Gun.

 

[dogwatch]

(I started this post before tonight's game, but it's still topical)

Thought it might be better to take the current debate to this thread...

Broadly there seem to be two schools of thought:
(1) English is a gun ruckman in the making but is still learning his trade and developing physically. After all, most ruckman don't hit their straps until well into their 20s. He'll become one of the best in the AFL soon enough.
(2) English has been in the system 4 years and is still getting monstered most weeks. He's only ever won the taps once in 30+ games. He's handy around the ground but will never be strong enough to win or even break even at centre bounces, ball-ups and throw-ins.

So I thought it'd be worth looking at three of the benchmark ruckmen in the AFL - the three Gs, Gawn, Goldstein and Grundy - when they were roughly English's age (22.86 years) and compare them to where English is up to.

I should say that I approached this analysis as an agnostic, i.e. I didn't go into it trying to prove one thing or another about English. I just wondered what it might show.

Here are the results:



There's a bit to digest there so let me summarise what it shows and what I think it means.

• Grundy was the standout ruckmen of the four at age 22.86. He led in nearly every stat, especially hitouts. He had played at least double the number of games that Gawn and English had, and quite a few more games than Goldstein so perhaps you could argue he had more senior experience and that might explain some of the difference.
• English is last in hitouts at that age but is actually not far behind Goldstein and Gawn (less than 1 HO per game).
• English is second of the four in nearly every other stat and in fact is first in marks. He is last in goals kicked although it could be argued that's not an important part of the #1 ruckman's role.
• English is the lightest of the four at age 22.86 (98kg).
• Gawn and Goldstein have gone on to become better tap ruckmen than Grundy since age 22.86, although there's not much between Goldstein and Grundy.
• Grundy is probably still the best around-the-ground ruckman out of those three and still has some of his best years ahead of him if he stays sound.

What it means in terms of English is that he's far from a lost cause. These three are some of the game's best ruckmen over the last decade so the fact that he compares fairly closely with at least two of them at the same age means he's not doing too badly.

Critics will rightly point to his performance in HOs (where he ranks last) as the crucial stat. However with his height and with more experience he may well improve rapidly, just as Gawn did (the tallest of the four).

My biggest concern is that he's still skinnier than the other three at the same age and that he may never make up that gap in bulk. Simon Dalrymple tells the story that he was worried about this when considering whether to draft English back in 2016 but when he visited the farm in Pingelly and saw Tim's dad he felt reassured - apparently English senior is a pretty solid bloke. That however doesn't guarantee that English will have the same build.

Critics might also say that stats are fine but what about the eye test? He doesn't even look like winning a hitout. I'm not sure how valid that is. I'd like to see footage of the other three at the same age and see if we can see a bit of Tim English in them. Also there are other influences and factors to consider as I've listed below.

Anyway my verdict is that I'm prepared to give Timmy at least another year before I consider saying he's never going to make it as a ruckman. All four have distinctive styles (as did Dempsey, Luke Darcy, Minson, Schultz, the People's Beard and various other ruckmen over the years) so it may be that while English is not as good in some areas (yet good enough to compete) he is outstanding in others, such as defensive marking as we saw tonight.

Other factors to consider
As we know stats only ever tell part of the story and they can be interpreted to mean different things. So it's important to understand what other factors might be at play in those stats. Here are a few I can think of. There will no doubt be others.

• How many of those games up to age 22.86 did each of the four play as the #1 ruckman? How many as the sole ruckman, as English has mostly been? Obviously sharing the ruck may make it easier and less draining but it can also reduce your stats output.
• After 2016 (ie for all of English's fledgling career but for none of the early career of the other three) the AFL banned third-man-up in the ruck contest. How does this affect the comparability of the ruck stats? I suspect it hasn't done English any favours as it means he is always one-out against an older, stronger ruckman. However it could also be argued that one-on-one duels will make modern ruckmen's stats look better because they aren't being diluted by 3MU hitouts.
• There have been other rule changes affecting ruckmen too (eg taking the ball from the ruck contest). Have these affected the stats?
• Did Goldstein, Gawn or Grundy play some of those early games as a sub? I don't know the answer but if so it would have made it hard to rack up good stats.
• Players mature physically at different rates. Gawn for instance seems to have improved rapidly from the age of 23 on. We know English was a late developer in terms of height. Does that mean he deserves more time to fill out? Does it mean there's still hope he'll eventually settle on a weight of about 102-103kg? I think that's a distinct possibility and if so, the added strength that it implies means he shouldn't be outmuscled and ragdolled like he has been in some recent games.

 

[Floridog]

(I started this post before tonight's game, but it's still topical)

Thought it might be better to take the current debate to this thread...

Broadly there seem to be two schools of thought:
(1) English is a gun ruckman in the making but is still learning his trade and developing physically. After all, most ruckman don't hit their straps until well into their 20s. He'll become one of the best in the AFL soon enough.
(2) English has been in the system 4 years and is still getting monstered most weeks. He's only ever won the taps once in 30+ games. He's handy around the ground but will never be strong enough to win or even break even at centre bounces, ball-ups and throw-ins.

So I thought it'd be worth looking at three of the benchmark ruckmen in the AFL - the three Gs, Gawn, Goldstein and Grundy - when they were roughly English's age (22.86 years) and compare them to where English is up to.

I should say that I approached this analysis as an agnostic, i.e. I didn't go into it trying to prove one thing or another about English. I just wondered what it might show.

Here are the results:

View attachment 895849

There's a bit to digest there so let me summarise what it shows and what I think it means.

• Grundy was the standout ruckmen of the four at age 22.86. He led in nearly every stat, especially hitouts. He had played at least double the number of games that Gawn and English had, and quite a few more games than Goldstein so perhaps you could argue he had more senior experience and that might explain some of the difference.
• English is last in hitouts at that age but is actually not far behind Goldstein and Gawn (less than 1 HO per game).
• English is second of the four in nearly every other stat and in fact is first in marks. He is last in goals kicked although it could be argued that's not an important part of the #1 ruckman's role.
• English is the lightest of the four at age 22.86 (98kg).
• Gawn and Goldstein have gone on to become better tap ruckmen than Grundy since age 22.86, although there's not much between Goldstein and Grundy.
• Grundy is probably still the best around-the-ground ruckman out of those three and still has some of his best years ahead of him if he stays sound.

What it means in terms of English is that he's far from a lost cause. These three are some of the game's best ruckmen over the last decade so the fact that he compares fairly closely with at least two of them at the same age means he's not doing too badly.

Critics will rightly point to his performance in HOs (where he ranks last) as the crucial stat. However with his height and with more experience he may well improve rapidly, just as Gawn did (the tallest of the four).

My biggest concern is that he's still skinnier than the other three at the same age and that he may never make up that gap in bulk. Simon Dalrymple tells the story that he was worried about this when considering whether to draft English back in 2016 but when he visited the farm in Pingelly and saw Tim's dad he felt reassured - apparently English senior is a pretty solid bloke. That however doesn't guarantee that English will have the same build.

Critics might also say that stats are fine but what about the eye test? He doesn't even look like winning a hitout. I'm not sure how valid that is. I'd like to see footage of the other three at the same age and see if we can see a bit of Tim English in them. Also there are other influences and factors to consider as I've listed below.

Anyway my verdict is that I'm prepared to give Timmy at least another year before I consider saying he's never going to make it as a ruckman. All four have distinctive styles (as did Dempsey, Luke Darcy, Minson, Schultz, the People's Beard and various other ruckmen over the years) so it may be that while English is not as good in some areas (yet good enough to compete) he is outstanding in others, such as defensive marking as we saw tonight.

Other factors to consider
As we know stats only ever tell part of the story and they can be interpreted to mean different things. So it's important to understand what other factors might be at play in those stats. Here are a few I can think of. There will no doubt be others.

• How many of those games up to age 22.86 did each of the four play as the #1 ruckman? How many as the sole ruckman, as English has mostly been? Obviously sharing the ruck may make it easier and less draining but it can also reduce your stats output.
• After 2016 (ie for all of English's fledgling career but for none of the early career of the other three) the AFL banned third-man-up in the ruck contest. How does this affect the comparability of the ruck stats? I suspect it hasn't done English any favours as it means he is always one-out against an older, stronger ruckman. However it could also be argued that one-on-one duels will make modern ruckmen's stats look better because they aren't being diluted by 3MU hitouts.
• There have been other rule changes affecting ruckmen too (eg taking the ball from the ruck contest). Have these affected the stats?
• Did Goldstein, Gawn or Grundy play some of those early games as a sub? I don't know the answer but if so it would have made it hard to rack up good stats.
• Players mature physically at different rates. Gawn for instance seems to have improved rapidly from the age of 23 on. We know English was a late developer in terms of height. Does that mean he deserves more time to fill out? Does it mean there's still hope he'll eventually settle on a weight of about 102-103kg? I think that's a distinct possibility and if so, the added strength that it implies means he shouldn't be outmuscled and ragdolled like he has been in some recent games.

My takeaway from this analysis is that Tim needs to change his name to Genglish.

 

[Munnez]

Can see that English has put on more bulk in this Pre-season. Also feel that he can add to it in the next, can't put on too much to quickly or risk becoming injury prone.
If he can add another 5-7 Kgs will massively improve his core stability to not get brushed aside anymore. Then I can see his hitout numbers taking a quantum leap forward

 

[Yojimbo]

I think Tim English has proven he can play a variety of roles in all sections of the ground, but until he hits the weight to height nirvana
zone he will still get monstered. Jordon Sweet is already there as a monster time to unleash the beast, Tim English is flexible enough
to be something else for now.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Guys help I can't stop watching it

Like seriously I think I have a problem

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Guys help I can't stop watching it

Like seriously I think I have a problem

You just don't take marks like that at that size

Also Bruce throwing his arms up in excitement is glorious

 

[weltschmerz]

I wonder what he'd be like if he hadn't grown quite as much? A 195cm English would be amazing in most places on the ground without the ruck being seen as his most natural position.

 

[Virgin Dog]

I wonder what he'd be like if he hadn't grown quite as much? A 195cm English would be amazing in most places on the ground without the ruck being seen as his most natural position.

His tank, disposal and read of the play would have had him as an elite midfielder if he were about 15cm shorter

 

[weltschmerz]

His tank, disposal and read of the play would have had him as an elite midfielder if he were about 15cm shorter

I can imagine him as a great tall intercept defender too, though that might not make such good use of his tank.

 

[Bulldogs85]

Guys help I can't stop watching it

Like seriously I think I have a problem

Some I can’t stop watching it he will be a gun soon enough