Essendons next flag not too far away

[btdg]

you mean like Melksham, Myers, Zaharakis & Reimers?

None of whom actually started in the midfield on the weekend. In fact, 2 of them didn't actually play for Essendon.

So yes, Essendon's midfield selected on the weekend (Winderlich, Watson, Stanton, Prismall, Welsh), are ALL fully grown men in the prime of their careers (23-28, as defined by Essendon football club). Their best midfielder outside that group is McVeigh, also in his prime.

That would compare to the other teams in the league:
Adelaide: Mackay (21)
Carlton: Gibbs (20), Murphy (22)
Richmond: Deledio (22), Cotchin (20), Martin (19)
North Melbourne: Anthony (22), Ziebell (18), Swallow (22)
Port Adelaide: Boak (22)

I'd find more, but you get the point. As selected last week, Essendon's top midfielders are in their prime, and will only improve marginally. That is both a strength and a drawback. It means they can compete against almost any team in the league in clearances and stoppages. It also means they won't improve a heap in the future.

 

[wicked77]

Yeah sure, you can't help but recall those classic players. Well if Hurley plays anything like he did against Hawthorn last year, I wont be looking back ha

Also do you think Jake Carlisle will get a game soon?

 

[beastie]

Individual players don't necessarily win you games let alone premierships. The plan behind those players in their prime is to give them a few years playing together and gel. When they have played well together last year they held their own against top sides at stages, comprehensively beating some really big names along the way.

We are not close to a flag at the moment but we have cattle who need to play together for a year or so (mainly midfield and forwards) so we can work out who is up to it come our time.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

None of whom actually started in the midfield on the weekend. In fact, 2 of them didn't actually play for Essendon.

but that's the point.

How can you say our midfield is stacked with players in their prime & can't improve?

It's a ridiculous statement. Why do you think our Round One midfield selections are set in stone as our midfield now forever? Very weird perspective to have...

We have a developing midfield in a developing team. We have some potentially very fine midfielders who aren't even playing there yet; so for you to say there's no improvement, or it's impossible to win a flag with our midfield that has already peaked is just plain wrong.

 

[Claude Balls]

As selected last week, Essendon's top midfielders are in their prime, ... means they won't improve a heap in the future.

Why does the concept of change baffle you so? Do you honestly think that Essendon's midfield will contain the exact same players in 2 - 3 years as it does now?

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Why does the concept of change baffle you so? Do you honestly think that Essendon's midfield will contain the exact same players in 2 - 3 years as it does now?

exactly right. Why do you reckon he thinks we drafted Melksham? For depth in our Bendigo squad? Does he believe that Melksham - one of the most highly rated mids in last years draft - is incapable of getting a game for us and improving our midfield?

It's just a bankrupt argument

 

[Claude Balls]

exactly right. Why do you reckon he thinks we drafted Melksham? For depth in our Bendigo squad? Does he believe that Melksham - one of the most highly rated mids in last years draft - is incapable of getting a game for us and improving our midfield?

It's just a bankrupt argument

Tell me about it. I tried to convey the idea of improvement coming from unforeseen sources but it hasn't been absorbed.

 

[Daytripper]

None of whom actually started in the midfield on the weekend. In fact, 2 of them didn't actually play for Essendon.

So yes, Essendon's midfield selected on the weekend (Winderlich, Watson, Stanton, Prismall, Welsh), are ALL fully grown men in the prime of their careers (23-28, as defined by Essendon football club). Their best midfielder outside that group is McVeigh, also in his prime.

That would compare to the other teams in the league:
Adelaide: Mackay (21)
Carlton: Gibbs (20), Murphy (22)
Richmond: Deledio (22), Cotchin (20), Martin (19)
North Melbourne: Anthony (22), Ziebell (18), Swallow (22)
Port Adelaide: Boak (22)

I'd find more, but you get the point. As selected last week, Essendon's top midfielders are in their prime, and will only improve marginally. That is both a strength and a drawback. It means they can compete against almost any team in the league in clearances and stoppages. It also means they won't improve a heap in the future.

Right - so Murphy, Deledio, Anthony, Swallow & Boak only have one more year of improvement left in them.

I'd be happy with another 5 years of Stanton at his current level anyway. You speak like he's all of a sudden going to start going downhill any minute soon. FFS, he's just turned 23.

 

[UpTheGuts]

Stanton is good. the rest of the blokes in the guts are meh....

 

[bomberstomake8]

None of whom actually started in the midfield on the weekend. In fact, 2 of them didn't actually play for Essendon.

So yes, Essendon's midfield selected on the weekend (Winderlich, Watson, Stanton, Prismall, Welsh), are ALL fully grown men in the prime of their careers (23-28, as defined by Essendon football club). Their best midfielder outside that group is McVeigh, also in his prime.

That would compare to the other teams in the league:
Adelaide: Mackay (21)
Carlton: Gibbs (20), Murphy (22)
Richmond: Deledio (22), Cotchin (20), Martin (19)
North Melbourne: Anthony (22), Ziebell (18), Swallow (22)
Port Adelaide: Boak (22)

I'd find more, but you get the point. As selected last week, Essendon's top midfielders are in their prime, and will only improve marginally. That is both a strength and a drawback. It means they can compete against almost any team in the league in clearances and stoppages. It also means they won't improve a heap in the future.

Again objectivity doesnt seem to be your strong suit. You have been very selective with your choice of players from other teams. For instance if i was selecting the best midfielders from each of those clubs they would be the senior players. You said our BEST MIDFIELDERS are old ( in stanton watson winderlcih watsons case 23-24). Well if i was listing the best midfielders currently from the teams you listed above it would be the following
Adelaide - Thompson (27), Edwards (33), Vince (24), Goodwin (33)
Carlton - Judd (26), McLean (24), Simpson (25), and of course Gibbs and Murphy (21 and 22).
Richmond - Deledio (22), Cousins (31), Foley (24), Jackson (23) ( i would hardly call Cotchin and Martin richmonds current best midfielders)
North - Anthony (22), Swallow (22), Harvey (31), with arguably Ziebell following (19).
Port Adelaide- Cornes (27), Rodan (26), Pearce (23),

If you were objective your list of best midfielders from each club should include most of these players mentioned above. Your talking about the best current midfielders and the ones you listed are up and coming potential midfielders. Yet you ignore our attempts to include reimers, zaka, houli, melksham etc. Again be objective in yoru analysis, this is not the bay

 

[bomberstomake8]

Stanton is good. the rest of the blokes in the guts are meh....

Watson is meh?

Geelong didnt htink so when it put its best tagger on watson instead of stanton

 

[btdg]

Again objectivity doesnt seem to be your strong suit. You have been very selective with your choice of players from other teams. For instance if i was selecting the best midfielders from each of those clubs they would be the senior players. You said our BEST MIDFIELDERS are old ( in stanton watson winderlcih watsons case 23-24). Well if i was listing the best midfielders currently from the teams you listed above it would be the following
Adelaide - Thompson (27), Edwards (33), Vince (24), Goodwin (33)
Carlton - Judd (26), McLean (24), Simpson (25), and of course Gibbs and Murphy (21 and 22).
Richmond - Deledio (22), Cousins (31), Foley (24), Jackson (23) ( i would hardly call Cotchin and Martin richmonds current best midfielders)
North - Anthony (22), Swallow (22), Harvey (31), with arguably Ziebell following (19).
Port Adelaide- Cornes (27), Rodan (26), Pearce (23),

If you were objective your list of best midfielders from each club should include most of these players mentioned above. Your talking about the best current midfielders and the ones you listed are up and coming potential midfielders. Yet you ignore our attempts to include reimers, zaka, houli, melksham etc. Again be objective in yoru analysis, this is not the bay

I was being fairly objective. The players I listed may not be the 'best' (although it'd be hard to argue against that proposition in the case of Essendon). They were simply the players selected in the midfield in round 1 of the season - that is, the named centerline and onballers, minus the ruckman. I also didn't do every team, mainly cos I couldn't be assed. The teams listed were the teams that the gameday board had teams as selected in the first post of the matchday thread for last week. Those are fairly neutral selection points; no value judgements made by me, simply who was available and picked by their own team to play.

Of course other factors are relevant to the strength of a midfield. The flankers count, as does depth (interchange). But the listed 5 give a reasonable approximation of who the best 5 are.

As far as the analysis goes - what you state is correct, pretty much my point. Carlton's best 5 midfielders include 3 players in their prime and two who haven't reached it yet (as well as depth players and the speculative types). It is therefore reasonable to assume that midfield will improve as the young guns reach their prime, especially when you consider the oldest member is Judd, who is only 26. It is a reasonably objective assumption to make that Bryce Gibbs (age 23) > Bryce Gibbs (age 20). If Richmond are currently playing Martin, Deledio and Cotchin, we can assume their midfield will improve over the next 3 years simply as those 3 get older. We cannot say the same for Essendon's midfield, because we cannot say for sure that, for example, Jake Melksham (age 21) > Mark McVeigh (age 28), as will be the case in 3 years time. That would be a subjective judgement. Adelaide are similarly tough to judge - how do we assess the relative value of Edwards vs Dangerfield in 2 years time.

Of course, we can try and make subjective judgements, and do so with as much information as possible. Essendon have a few midfielders about to enter their prime, who have played enough to guess at: Hocking, Reimers, Monfries being three that spring to mind (aged 21-22, played 20 or so games minimum). My subjective judgement is that none of those 3 will be better in 2 years time than Watson, Stanton, Winderlich are now (which is praise for those 3). It is also my subjective judgement that those 3 will basically just replace the players leaving their primes (McVeigh, Lovett, Welsh), with the possible exception of Monfries (who could develop into a Chapman-quality player at some point). Thus, my subjective judgement that Essendon will not improve in the midfield in the near future (next 3-4 years). Beyond that? As guys like Melksham, Myers - people we don't know much about yet - improve, maybe they do become stars. If its more than 3 years away, its outside the parameters of this thread. If its less, then it would be the sort of unexpected event that footy throws up from time to time (along the lines of Selwood at Geelong), that still wouldn't render what I say wrong.

 

[Knight Ryders]

Having a good midfield can sneak up on you. For example, what did Collingwood's midfield look like 3-4 years ago? I doubt even the most vehement Pies supporters would have thought they'd have an elite midfield consisting of Swan, Didak and Davis amongst others. Swan was a cheap possession gather half back flanker, Didak and Davis flashy small forwards. Pendlebury was a good pick and adds a real element of class to the outfit and Ball was a good trade to add some more grunt.

My point? Three years is a long time in football and you just don't know who will be running around in our midfield in that time. Watson, Stanton, Winderlich and Prismall are definitely a good starting point, but we have other players that may develop into gun midfielders that seem unlikely at the moment. It could be a Monfires, may be a Zaharakis, Anthony Long apparently moves smoother than a ballet dancer.

I will be disappointed if we aren't seriously contending in three years time, but to go all the way is another thing. The Saints, Bulldogs and the Pies are seriously contending atm, but there are no guarantees that a premiership is on their way.

 

[SA HAWK]

Having a good midfield can sneak up on you. For example, what did Collingwood's midfield look like 3-4 years ago? I doubt even the most vehement Pies supporters would have thought they'd have an elite midfield consisting of Swan, Didak and Davis amongst others. Swan was a cheap possession gather half back flanker, Didak and Davis flashy small forwards. Pendlebury was a good pick and adds a real element of class to the outfit and Ball was a good trade to add some more grunt.

My point? Three years is a long time in football and you just don't know who will be running around in our midfield in that time. Watson, Stanton, Winderlich and Prismall are definitely a good starting point, but we have other players that may develop into gun midfielders that seem unlikely at the moment. It could be a Monfires, may be a Zaharakis, Anthony Long apparently moves smoother than a ballet dancer.

I will be disappointed if we aren't seriously contending in three years time, but to go all the way is another thing. The Saints, Bulldogs and the Pies are seriously contending atm, but there are no guarantees that a premiership is on their way.

Agree with this 100% you should be challenging in about 3 years time.

Like you said about Saints, Bulldogs & Collingwood all 3 have been challenging for a few years now and not all 3 will win one.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Like you said about Saints, Bulldogs & Collingwood all 3 have been challenging for a few years now and not all 3 will win one.

Its possible though that each wins one in the next three years.

Neither is near having the window shut just yet - StKilda will have a couple of rucks and Lenny Hayes to replace while Bulldogs will have to replace Hall Aker and Johnson. Collingwood only has Presti as a key player to turn over and probably has a better time horizon than the other two teams to win a flag.

 

[SA HAWK]

Its possible though that each wins one in the next three years.

Neither is near having the window shut just yet - StKilda will have a couple of rucks and Lenny Hayes to replace while Bulldogs will have to replace Hall Aker and Johnson. Collingwood only has Presti as a key player to turn over and probably has a better time horizon than the other two teams to win a flag.

I think time is running out for the Dogs & Saints. Pies have a few more years yet.

I certainly don't think all 3 will win one.

 

[Winner]

I can't believe how underrated Essendon's midfield is. We have one superb around the ground ruckman (Hille) and another ruckman who delivers some fantastic tap work - don't look at statistics, actually watch Ryders tap outs, he feeds them straight into the chest of our midfielders so often.

Then you look at our core three midfielders, Watson, Stanton and Mcveigh. Mcveigh did not play against Geelong and yet we matched them in contested possessions for 3 quarters. For those who say Mcveigh "just gets the job done", he was unlucky not to get All Australian in 2008, despite playing 14 games, then had a shocking run with injuries in 2009 and couldn't match his form. If Mcveigh reaches his 08 form again we will have three A-grade midfielders.

The strength of Essendons midfield lies in its depth, if you look past Watson, Stanton and Mcveigh, then you have Winderlich, Dyson and Welsh. Welsh was arguably the best tagger in in 2008, Winderlich has the ability to tear games open and Dyson is ultra consistant.

Then you have our younger players like Zaharakis (arugably BOG for Essendon against Geelong) and Reimers who will peak soon.

The major weakness of Essendon is our key forwards, Gumbleton has not shown enough yet to suggest he will be a good player and Neagle is simply too unfit. However we do have Hurley, who will play up forward and has already shown he is capable of really taking control of a match.

 

[Thrust]

some excellent and well thought out posts by btdg. The only things i would point out is that of Essendons midfielders only mcveigh and welsh will be past their prime in 3 years, you would think Watson, Winderlich and Stanton would be around the same level, (possibly winderlich improving if he can keep his injuries in check).

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I can't believe how underrated Essendon's midfield is. We have one superb around the ground ruckman (Hille) and another ruckman who delivers some fantastic tap work - don't look at statistics, actually watch Ryders tap outs, he feeds them straight into the chest of our midfielders so often.

Then you look at our core three midfielders, Watson, Stanton and Mcveigh. Mcveigh did not play against Geelong and yet we matched them in contested possessions for 3 quarters. For those who say Mcveigh "just gets the job done", he was unlucky not to get All Australian in 2008, despite playing 14 games, then had a shocking run with injuries in 2009 and couldn't match his form. If Mcveigh reaches his 08 form again we will have three A-grade midfielders.

The strength of Essendons midfield lies in its depth, if you look past Watson, Stanton and Mcveigh, then you have Winderlich, Dyson and Welsh. Welsh was arguably the best tagger in in 2008, Winderlich has the ability to tear games open and Dyson is ultra consistant.

Then you have our younger players like Zaharakis (arugably BOG for Essendon against Geelong) and Reimers who will peak soon.

The major weakness of Essendon is our key forwards, Gumbleton has not shown enough yet to suggest he will be a good player and Neagle is simply too unfit. However we do have Hurley, who will play up forward and has already shown he is capable of really taking control of a match.

I mean this in the nicest possible way but no-one would rate those guys as top class A-graders. A graders are Judd, Hodge, Bartel, Selwood, Cooney, Ablett, Mitchell, Swan, Black, Goodes etc. All who have been doing the business for years

Watson and Stanton are a fair way off the class of those guys listed above. Even an extraordinarily biased Essendon fan should be able to recognise that.

 

[Winner]

I mean this in the nicest possible way but no-one would rate those guys as top class A-graders. A graders are Judd, Hodge, Bartel, Selwood, Cooney, Ablett, Mitchell, Swan, Black, Goodes etc. All who have been doing the business for years

Watson and Stanton are a fair way off the class of those guys listed above. Even an extraordinarily biased Essendon fan should be able to recognise that.

Alright, Stanton is not in the same bracket as the players you just listed. I agree with that. Watson on the other hand is.

 

[theboxmike]

I mean this in the nicest possible way but no-one would rate those guys as top class A-graders. A graders are Judd, Hodge, Bartel, Selwood, Cooney, Ablett, Mitchell, Swan, Black, Goodes etc. All who have been doing the business for years

Watson and Stanton are a fair way off the class of those guys listed above. Even an extraordinarily biased Essendon fan should be able to recognise that.

Yeah Watson when he is on song is IMO absolute gun

 

[r_boy]

Alright, Stanton is not in the same bracket as the players you just listed. I agree with that. Watson on the other hand is.

Yeah, nah.

 

[doppleganger]

Having a good midfield can sneak up on you. For example, what did Collingwood's midfield look like 3-4 years ago? I doubt even the most vehement Pies supporters would have thought they'd have an elite midfield consisting of Swan, Didak and Davis amongst others. Swan was a cheap possession gather half back flanker, Didak and Davis flashy small forwards. Pendlebury was a good pick and adds a real element of class to the outfit and Ball was a good trade to add some more grunt.

Didak won the Copeland in 2006, he was always going to be a gun.

Swan averaged more possessions than Buckley, Burns and Licuria in 2006, was already a dominant accumulator of the footy.

Davis, yes he is a bit of a surprise....06 he averaged 13 touches and 1.5 goals per game.

Pendles and Thomas the two top draft picks have obviously helped.

My point? Three years is a long time in football and you just don't know who will be running around in our midfield in that time. Watson, Stanton, Winderlich and Prismall are definitely a good starting point, but we have other players that may develop into gun midfielders that seem unlikely at the moment. It could be a Monfires, may be a Zaharakis, Anthony Long apparently moves smoother than a ballet dancer.

Swan debuted in the same year as Watson and Winderlich, and just one year before Stanton. Those blokes have been around for long enough already, Swan has stepped up to the elite class......the dons blokes haven't.

I will be disappointed if we aren't seriously contending in three years time, but to go all the way is another thing. The Saints, Bulldogs and the Pies are seriously contending atm, but there are no guarantees that a premiership is on their way.

I think the dons will progress but it will be based on the dominant spine....which will allow younger mids to rapidly come in...the present midfielders wont improve that dramatically.

 

[Smyth94]

I mean this in the nicest possible way but no-one would rate those guys as top class A-graders. A graders are Judd, Hodge, Bartel, Selwood, Cooney, Ablett, Mitchell, Swan, Black, Goodes etc. All who have been doing the business for years

Watson and Stanton are a fair way off the class of those guys listed above. Even an extraordinarily biased Essendon fan should be able to recognise that.

Those players are the elite - the top 10-15 players of the competition.

Watson and perhaps Stanton (if he can have a good year this year) are A-graders.

That's the difference.

 

[BrunoV]

I don't think that mentality applies to today's football anymore.

Hope you're right though.

Sure it does look at Melbourne. The admin there has been far too happy to loose games.