Golf Golf technique

[juss]

Speaking on developing your best swing and swing mechanics, what I find hugely challenging as someone building/developing a swing and still on my way is all the conflicting information.

To use posture as one example, I made a correction at the end of my round to keep myself more upright at address, standing a little bit taller. Then went online to google/watch some other golfers and you see a mix of videos of upright posture, or low postures with chest over the ball, or everything in between.

You see swings like Matt Wolfe and then swings like Adam Scott, then Dustin Johnson with his quite bent body angles and extreme bowed wrists. All of these guys are amazing hitters, with completely different mechanics/postures/swing planes. Trying to follow a pattern of improvement is so hard because nobody quite knows what the end game is and there's so many different ways to get there!

 

[ubuntu]

This is really interesting. What you say is 100% correct for most recreational golfers and borne true by data presented in Mark Broadie's seminal "Every Shot Counts". Most people would walk away after reading that book thinking they need to work on fixing their swing.

What the book did not explore was how easy it would be to improve the various components of your game. Personally I think making significant full swing changes as a once a week player is extremely difficult at best and an exercise in futility at worst.

Do you think it’s easier to obtain internal feedback for the short game for the reasons above?? I had a putting and then a chipping lesson last year and found that I could quite easily take those points and apply them at home/practice greens.

I find the internal feedback for a full swing much harder to achieve.

 

[iDon]

My next 1.5 lesson will be on short game for sure.

My inability to consistently hit my driver off the tee was a big concern and was putting me in poor situations. This was the focus and will focus on that swing mechanics first.

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

Interesting guys - thanks. More than I suspected have gone down the short game lesson path.


This is really interesting. What you say is 100% correct for most recreational golfers and borne true by data presented in Mark Broadie's seminal "Every Shot Counts". Most people would walk away after reading that book thinking they need to work on fixing their swing.

What the book did not explore was how easy it would be to improve the various components of your game. Personally I think making significant full swing changes as a once a week player is extremely difficult at best and an exercise in futility at worst.

Short game improvements on the other hand, due to the smaller, shorter swing, the limited need for a particular level of flexibility, the availability of practice facilities (can chip in back yard, can putt on carpet) etc I think are potentially easier to make.

ScrappyCoCo you have been the poster child here for going on a full swing rebuild whilst being part of the working population. Your thoughts/experiences would be good.

Poster child...been called a lot of things but never ever that

I saw the opportunity of lockdown as a chance to be able to focus on a full rebuild and went for it.

I have had many lessons over my journey and got to a reasonable level....but when I was at my best I was practicing and playing at least 2 times each per week and probably seeing a pro fortnightly. But I never really felt in control with my swing. I just new how to score pretty well. I have had faults and never really sorted them out. I was a table tennis coach and I strongly believe there are 2 types of people. Ones that can take a coaches instruction and be able to do it pretty quickly...or others that take forever to get it, even if it is simple. I feel that I sit in the 2nd group. I am not unco, I just found it hard to really understand certain feelings when things are happening at high speed. Often you think you are doing something but are not in reality.

The rebuild and breaking old habits was really hard. I am still not there yet but had some really positive things happen along the journey...as well as devastation at times and questioning wtf am I doing. There were times where I would hit some good feeling shots and think I am there and suddenly 30 shanks in a row.

My iron play with my new swing has been pretty good. I have gone from a player that draws the ball...with the odd push out to the right and and a hook fairly common (it was a lottery if the club face was square at impact), to a player that, if I hit it well, has a gentle fade. Club is square at impact more often...sometimes the path is a bit out to in. Some of my highlights have been a round where I hit 6 wedge length shots within 3 or 4 foot. Chipped in a few times for eagles, holed bunker shots for birdies, lots of up and downs from bunkers etc.

Driving is where I have struggled to get it right on course, although my last round was my best ever hitting 10 from 12 with the long club and the other 2 were not bad. But I really doubted what was going on, lost confidence trying in my net. The bad ones were coming down too steep and I was getting the top edge of the club and sending it into the neighborhood lol at a 45 degree angle. Going to see Rohan at MGA gave me confidence to keep going with it as it was far greater on plane compared to the old swing. My brother was at me to go back as he believed I was better before. Last round I had a swing thought and it worked so that's the new focus for a while. I was concentrating on width at the start...then at and after transition I was imagining I was hitting a baseball on a tee like a kid...so it was more around my body and worked a treat. Glad my bro was with me as he saw it work and I gave him a 10 shot hiding haha.

For me, it was the training aid that allowed me to make the change, although I would have loved to seen Rohan in the middle as my setup was a bit wrong and I was not behind the ball at impact enough. I think that was causing the shanks and heartache...haven't shanked one for a while touch wood. What I have learned with that thing has really helped my short game as well...everything is a lot quieter at impact with a body turn squaring the face instead of my hands trying to do it. A lot less flippy and far more consistent. I wish I used this tool as a teenager and learned the concepts to take with me for my golfing journey.

I could not have done this without having 2 months with absolutely nothing much else to do, having a net and being able to hit endless ball as well. So I agree totally, almost impossible to really make a huge change in an older person without being able to dedicate hours on end daily.

I have had 2 short game lessons in my life and probably 50 plus full swing over my time...the 2 short game lessons far outweigh what I have got out of full swing ones.

I have been physically working hard mowing lawns (I do 8 to 10 a day) and have no energy to really practice much now...no way I could have done this if life was normal. Sorry for being so long winded.

 

[Pres]

Outstanding reply Scrappy. You have much to be proud of working so hard on the overhaul. Your process commitment is the gold standard for those seeking to improve their full swings - particularly for those of us over 50.

It's why I'm always dismissive of Pure Form, clubfitters etc. They create the illusion that you can buy a golf game when, as you know, there is no substitute for hard work

Do you think it’s easier to obtain internal feedback for the short game for the reasons above??

I think you get feedback from both but personally I feel it's just easier and less complex to make changes in shorter shots.

 

[Pres]

Funnily enough I had a lesson tonight at the Golf Studio in Mordialloc. What a venue that is. Amazing.

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

Funnily enough I had a lesson tonight at the Golf Studio in Mordialloc. What a venue that is. Amazing.

Yes it does look great. Covid must have really thrown a spanner in their operation being totally indoors and a relatively new business.

What were you working on?

 

[Pres]

What were you working on?

1.5hr lesson with my coach of ~10yrs.

Was mainly about pitching and putting but we did spend 30 mins on the full swing - mainly as it's a shame not to at least hit a few on a full Trackman simulator.

My pitching problems have been around struggling to get a clean strike. Specifically bottoming out often behind the ball. The problem was around two things - tilting rather than turning and swing path too much from the inside.

Putting - needed more forward shaft lean to create a more solid strike and a shorter follow through to get some more pressure into the ball.

Full swing - the usual problems - early extension and it was pretty ugly to be honest. Need to clear the left side on the way through. Can best achieve this via a visual of rotating (not tilting) the lead shoulder hard left on the downswing. When I pulled this off I actually got some forward shaft lean at impact and my ball speed numbers jumped through the roof

 

[juss]

What I find amazing with this game is that players of 5, 10, 20, 30 years still need lessons to fix their swing or work on parts of their game. It's probably because over time the swing has changed dozens of time. I know that mine is still changing round to round. And I'm not talking minor tips and tweaks, people literally haul their swing and mechanics after playing the game for 30 years.

It's pretty unique in golf. I learnt to kick a drop punt footy and shoot a free throw basket when I was in primary school, and largely still now if I pick up a footy or basketball in the park my technique is largely the same 20 years later. Yes I'm rusty and a little inconsistent without regular practice, but once I'd learnt the skill it's not something that really changed.

I'd ask the question, are you a better golfer than you were at year 1, 5, 10, 15 20? When is the "peak" of form?
Between 20 and 40? After 10 years? Interesting thought.

 

[Pres]

Good points juss.

I'd argue though that the golf swing is a way more complex than either kicking a Sherrin or free throw shooting. So many more technical things that can go awry - and lead to a terrible result. Largely due to such a small, unforgiving target (the clubhead).

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

And at a guess there would probably be 15/20 different moving parts in a golf swing...which would all move very slightly different every single swing. It is amazing that the brain can process these variations over the couple of seconds it takes to complete a swing, and still get that club head back to that starting point with some sort of control.

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

What I find amazing with this game is that players of 5, 10, 20, 30 years still need lessons to fix their swing or work on parts of their game. It's probably because over time the swing has changed dozens of time. I know that mine is still changing round to round. And I'm not talking minor tips and tweaks, people literally haul their swing and mechanics after playing the game for 30 years.

It's pretty unique in golf. I learnt to kick a drop punt footy and shoot a free throw basket when I was in primary school, and largely still now if I pick up a footy or basketball in the park my technique is largely the same 20 years later. Yes I'm rusty and a little inconsistent without regular practice, but once I'd learnt the skill it's not something that really changed.

I'd ask the question, are you a better golfer than you were at year 1, 5, 10, 15 20? When is the "peak" of form?
Between 20 and 40? After 10 years? Interesting thought.

I think one of golf's secrets is to develop a swing that is somewhat repeatable. If you can make a swing that is close to the last swing...and the next one...and they are very close to next week's swings, you then have a chance to play a pretty good level, even if it is not perfect.

 

[juss]

I think one of golf's secrets is to develop a swing that is somewhat repeatable. If you can make a swing that is close to the last swing...and the next one...and they are very close to next week's swings, you then have a chance to play a pretty good level, even if it is not perfect.

Probably true.

I've seen plenty of golfers with swings that are far from text book, but they are trained and consistent and the golfer has a fair idea of how they work, and they are pretty solid players in the 80s/90s range week to week.

 

[ubuntu]

I think one of golf's secrets is to develop a swing that is somewhat repeatable. If you can make a swing that is close to the last swing...and the next one...and they are very close to next week's swings, you then have a chance to play a pretty good level, even if it is not perfect.

I agree entirely. I’ve just moved suburbs and had a few lessons at Albert park but I didn’t really Clock with the coach. It’s too far to travel now, but I saw a new guy up here and he basically said his aim is a repeatable strike that you can use into your 80. Might have been a sales line but I quite enjoyed the approach. Basically he started with the grip which honestly is completely different and has really rattled me. I’ve had two range sessions and a social round since and is going to be a lengthy process but I’m up for it.

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

I agree entirely. I’ve just moved suburbs and had a few lessons at Albert park but I didn’t really Clock with the coach. It’s too far to travel now, but I saw a new guy up here and he basically said his aim is a repeatable strike that you can use into your 80. Might have been a sales line but I quite enjoyed the approach. Basically he started with the grip which honestly is completely different and has really rattled me. I’ve had two range sessions and a social round since and is going to be a lengthy process but I’m up for it.

Has he changed the grip type? like going from interlock to overlap or just tinkered with how you hold the club with your existing grip?

I grew up using interlock...changed to overlap for a while when I was in my 30s...but went back at some point to interlock. Wished I stayed with overlap. I tend to grip a bit tightly..or feel like I can with interlock for some reason.

 

[ubuntu]

Has he changed the grip type? like going from interlock to overlap or just tinkered with how you hold the club with your existing grip?

I grew up using interlock...changed to overlap for a while when I was in my 30s...but went back at some point to interlock. Wished I stayed with overlap. I tend to grip a bit tightly..or feel like I can with interlock for some reason.

I’ve always overlapped, but basically he has made me really focus on my left (lead) hand. Right in the fingertips and much stronger than I had previously. It feels quite foreign still but I’ll give it a few months with some lessons and at least 3 either range sessions or games per week.

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

I’ve always overlapped, but basically he has made me really focus on my left (lead) hand. Right in the fingertips and much stronger than I had previously. It feels quite foreign still but I’ll give it a few months with some lessons and at least 3 either range sessions or games per week.

how many knuckles do you see when you look down on your left on the new grip compared to the old?

 

[ubuntu]

how many knuckles do you see when you look down on your left on the new grip compared to the old?

0-2/3.

 

[ubuntu]

I’m stoked. Had one of those click moments tonight.

Had the course to myself, so I was playing between 3-4 balls at a time.

I was applying everything I had learnt in the lesson last week, but was struggling to make clean contact. This has been the case every time I have used a club since.

I was getting frustrated and was about to leave, when I decided to have a swing like Bryson. Lo and behold I absolutely flushed it and with that elite looking ball flight. I did it again. And again.

I still had some mishits for sure but I’ve never hit the ball so well. I think that significantly increasing the speed of my swing (both directions) stopped me from over thinking. It was just - set up, swing. I’m so energised. Playing the vw scramble in a few weeks so I’m pumped.

 

[toxic]

I’m stoked. Had one of those click moments tonight.

Had the course to myself, so I was playing between 3-4 balls at a time.

I was applying everything I had learnt in the lesson last week, but was struggling to make clean contact. This has been the case every time I have used a club since.

I was getting frustrated and was about to leave, when I decided to have a swing like Bryson. Lo and behold I absolutely flushed it and with that elite looking ball flight. I did it again. And again.

I still had some mishits for sure but I’ve never hit the ball so well. I think that significantly increasing the speed of my swing (both directions) stopped me from over thinking. It was just - set up, swing. I’m so energised. Playing the vw scramble in a few weeks so I’m pumped.

VW scramble where?

 

[juss]

I’m stoked. Had one of those click moments tonight.

Had the course to myself, so I was playing between 3-4 balls at a time.

I was applying everything I had learnt in the lesson last week, but was struggling to make clean contact. This has been the case every time I have used a club since.

I was getting frustrated and was about to leave, when I decided to have a swing like Bryson. Lo and behold I absolutely flushed it and with that elite looking ball flight. I did it again. And again.

I still had some mishits for sure but I’ve never hit the ball so well. I think that significantly increasing the speed of my swing (both directions) stopped me from over thinking. It was just - set up, swing. I’m so energised. Playing the vw scramble in a few weeks so I’m pumped.

Great to hear. What was the clicking cue? Just set up and swing hard?
I'm a big believer that overthinking kills the golf swing, but that's my natural tendency as an overanalyser.

 

[ubuntu]

Great to hear. What was the clicking cue? Just set up and swing hard?
I'm a big believer that overthinking kills the golf swing, but that's my natural tendency as an overanalyser.

Pretty much that exactly. Grip. Rip. Apply everything I have learnt and swing hard.

 

[juss]

Pretty much that exactly. Grip. Rip. Apply everything I have learnt and swing hard.

Whatever works right? No need to overcomplicate it if the ball is flying.

 

[BILC]

Any recommendations on where to get lessons in Melbourne? I am a 25 handicapper and have never had them before, and how long would you recommend for someone that has never had lessons, is 30 minutes enough time?

 

[juss]

One piece of advice I got from my pro, which is a bit different to what I'd been told by another instructor. Previously I'd been taught to get my body/head forward through the swing and almost "look back at the ball" at impact, whereas I'm now trying to keep my head behind ball.

Do people here try and keep their head/eyes behind the ball at impact, or get ahead of the ball at impact?


Head behind ball at impact