Autopsy Hawks lose another close one to dees

[TheFourPillars]

Lol i remember when we were 3 and 3 at the start of 2015 and a number of our supporters and i use the term lightly here had given up on the season. This season is the closest season in living memory. We are in transition a lot of new players and young trying to gell.

Its not about this season anyway we are on a journey a rebuild. Rebuilds have ups and downs whether you do them through the draft or not. See thats what plans are for. You use the plan and do not waiver in adversity.

Some of our supporters seem to think we must win every year although thats the goal its never going to be the case. So buckle up and ride the bumps with a grin.

 

[KermitJagger]

Lol i remember when we were 3 and 3 at the start of 2015 and a number of our supporters and i use the term lightly here had given up on the season. This season is the closest season in living memory. We are in transition a lot of new players and young trying to gell.

Its not about this season anyway we are on a journey a rebuild. Rebuilds have ups and downs whether you do them through the draft or not. See thats what plans are for. You use the plan and do not waiver in adversity.

Some of our supporters seem to think we must win every year although thats the goal its never going to be the case. So buckle up and ride the bumps with a grin.

I'm not as negative as most because I'm still yet to see us get hammered, particularly against Geelong where we were a few concentration lapses away from really challenging even without Frawley, Stratton, Shiels and Burgoyne.

This type of inconsistency would lead me to believe that it's not a player issue. It's a pulling it all together issue.

Outside of Geelong and Collingwood, which other team has been in every game? Every other team has at least one complete capitulation.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Lol i remember when we were 3 and 3 at the start of 2015 and a number of our supporters and i use the term lightly here had given up on the season. This season is the closest season in living memory. We are in transition a lot of new players and young trying to gell.

Its not about this season anyway we are on a journey a rebuild. Rebuilds have ups and downs whether you do them through the draft or not. See thats what plans are for. You use the plan and do not waiver in adversity.

Some of our supporters seem to think we must win every year although thats the goal its never going to be the case. So buckle up and ride the bumps with a grin.

I remember in 2015 despite being 3-3 we could actually hit the scoreboard and had already scored 100+ several times, comparing apples and oranges.

 

[H2F]

Lol your a very glass half full type person which is good to see, faaaarrk off isn’t the way to go about responding to someone’s opinion though, but anyway you should grow a set of balls and open your eyes to reality.

What ‘undermanned’ unit are you talking about? We were missing THREE best 22 players this week and got done by a side missing a fair few more than that.
We could have really put our foot on their throats and finished them off but we decided to play weak, soft and conservative footy that gave them the ascendancy, for 7 weeks straight we get to a 3 - 5 goal lead and get reeled back in way too easily.

Our structures are a disaster, bombing the ball high inside 50 during every attack, zero use of the corridor, no run off half back nothing and your going to give me ‘hawks magic’ ********.

This is absolutely no rebuild and never ever was, we thought we could match it with the best and were gunning for a flag, that’s the reality of the situation obviously when Mitchell went down that may have changed.

Wake up and smell the roses, we need changes to our structures, game plan and playing list very soon because we have already been overtaken by a number of clubs and as a passionate supporter I believe we belong at the top but the way we are heading we are heading straight to the bottom without change.
As for the fight, it’s been going on for 2 years already, 2017 and 2018.

Have a listen to Clarkos press conference afternoon the dees game, we don’t want to be competitive we are here to win flags and if that’s not going to happen CHANGE will take place.

Sorry mate I’m just a realist and don’t believe or subject myself to philosophical, fairytale ********.
I’m not ridiculing the climb back to greatness, I don’t think the trajectory we are following at the moment will necessarily lead us back to greatness.

Your reply is a bit polarising because you seem to be semi-level headed (which is disappointing) because I was hoping to have a bit of fun, but regardless everything you wrote above from a factual perspective is total BS.

So here goes anyway

What ‘undermanned’ unit are you talking about?
- The one where we lost 3/4 of our champions to retirement one way or another after 3 consecutive premierships. The same team who had F/all draft picks because of it and then lost Mitchell unexpectedly as well. The team who will also likely add Coniglio and one or two other surprises, whilst getting games into Worpedo, Mitchell-Lewis, Cousins, Scrimshaw etc and getting Wingard and Scully fit.

Our structures are a disaster
- All year we have been ultra-competitive purely because of our structures. We were super competitive even with Geelong. Considering where we are at in our list development and above-mentioned injuries and it's even more remarkable. To not understand the one fundamental that defines Clarkson and sees us competitive even in the depths of our rebuild, where Carlton, Melbourne and St Kilda, for example, languished for years and years getting thrashed is borderline heresy.


This is absolutely no rebuild and never ever was
- I don't even

We don’t want to be competitive we are here to win flags and if that’s not going to happen CHANGE will take place.
Are you that slow that you actually expect him to say something like, 'No settle everyone, calm down. This is exactly what we expect from this young developing team. They tried but lacked class and tired through lack of talent and rotations/options.'

Really?

Wake up and smell the roses
I don't know what you mean. You are completely and utterly wrong. I mean no offence (despite finding fun in the candour as I too don't like losing no matter whatever) but you are either wrong, taking the piss, or maybe just a bit dim. Again no offence but what you are writing here is garbage.

Sorry mate I’m just a realist
LOL

A passionate supporter I believe we belong at the top
We not only do, we mostly always are. But it isn't a perfect science, it's an incredible product of the fact we follow one of the greatest sporting clubs of all time. But even so, we cannot win it every year.

 

[Nash88]

Your reply is a bit polarising because you seem to be semi-level headed (which is disappointing) because I was hoping to have a bit of fun, but regardless everything you wrote above from a factual perspective is total BS.

So here goes anyway

What ‘undermanned’ unit are you talking about?
- The one where we lost 3/4 of our champions to retirement one way or another after 3 consecutive premierships. The same team who had F/all draft picks because of it and then lost Mitchell unexpectedly as well. The team who will also likely add Coniglio and one or two other surprises, whilst getting games into Worpedo, Mitchell-Lewis, Cousins, Scrimshaw etc and getting Wingard and Scully fit.

Our structures are a disaster
- All year we have been ultra-competitive purely because of our structures. We were super competitive even with Geelong. Considering where we are at in our list development and above-mentioned injuries and it's even more remarkable. To not understand the one fundamental that defines Clarkson and sees us competitive even in the depths of our rebuild, where Carlton, Melbourne and St Kilda, for example, languished for years and years getting thrashed is borderline heresy.


This is absolutely no rebuild and never ever was
- I don't even

We don’t want to be competitive we are here to win flags and if that’s not going to happen CHANGE will take place.
Are you that slow that you actually expect him to say something like, 'No settle everyone, calm down. This is exactly what we expect from this young developing team. They tried but lacked class and tired through lack of talent and rotations/options.'

Really?

Wake up and smell the roses
I don't know what you mean. You are completely and utterly wrong. I mean no offence (despite finding fun in the candour as I too don't like losing no matter whatever) but you are either wrong, taking the piss, or maybe just a bit dim. Again no offence but what you are writing here is garbage.

Sorry mate I’m just a realist
LOL

A passionate supporter I believe we belong at the top
We not only do, we mostly always are. But it isn't a perfect science, it's an incredible product of the fact we follow one of the greatest sporting clubs of all time. But even so, we cannot win it every year.

You are an incredibly intelligent poster and thank you for your response h2f.
We are clearly all passionate hawks in here and forgive my ignorance but as you said yourself we all hate losing but after calming down after the weekends disappointment and the silly media targeting our side seemingly this week I have relaxed and must say I agree with your response wholeheartedly.

Absolutely no offence intended my friend, may we ride the bumps with a grin this season and come back better than ever sooner rather than later after all we are up near the top where we belong much more often than not.

Cheers mate!!

 

[Bedi]

It's interesting to see our finish in 2018 leading up to the finals that secured us top 4: wins to Essendon by 4 points, Geelong 9 points, St Kilda 4 points and Sydney 9 points. So basically (other than Carlton) we're just not winning the close ones this year. Bit of luck helps a lot in this game!

 

[TheFourPillars]

I remember in 2015 despite being 3-3 we could actually hit the scoreboard and had already scored 100+ several times, comparing apples and oranges.

Of course mate it was just an example of how things are never as bad as it seems. We are a work in progress.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Lol i remember when we were 3 and 3 at the start of 2015 and a number of our supporters and i use the term lightly here had given up on the season. This season is the closest season in living memory. We are in transition a lot of new players and young trying to gell.

Its not about this season anyway we are on a journey a rebuild. Rebuilds have ups and downs whether you do them through the draft or not. See thats what plans are for. You use the plan and do not waiver in adversity.

Some of our supporters seem to think we must win every year although thats the goal its never going to be the case. So buckle up and ride the bumps with a grin.

We were reigning premiers, still had legends of the game playing and were expected to start slow given the age profile and the fact we started so much later than most of the teams.

We also still played a game style that was unbeatable when we were in form (see the rude demolitions of flag fancies Freo and Sydney in back to back games).

This season we are coming off a flattering top four finish and a straight sets exit. We have two legends left, and one on form shouldn't be playing presently. This is his last season before he enjoys a well earned retirement.

We play a seemingly outdated style that is slow, is the opposite from how all of the current best teams play, and does not maximise any of the strengths of our forwards - we have a small forward line with no contested marking power (bar the young Lewis), but our forwards thrive on quick movement. So instead of moving it fast we just bomb it on top of their heads.

The situations are really not similar.

I agree though we have to rebuild/revitalise the list, we have no choice. Thankfully we still have a quality core of players in the right age group to build around.

 

[TylerDurden]

We play a seemingly outdated style that is slow, is the opposite from how all of the current best teams play, and does not maximise any of the strengths of our forwards - we have a small forward line with no contested marking power (bar the young Lewis), but our forwards thrive on quick movement. So instead of moving it fast we just bomb it on top of their heads.

This is on point. And it's what frustrates me the most, as it's a coaching thin, and can be fixed the next game. It's really shitting me.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

This is on point. And it's what frustrates me the most, as it's a coaching thin, and can be fixed the next game. It's really shitting me.

I've been told I can't question the coaching on here, and also on that moronic Facebook 'better than banter' group. Though really that's my own fault for joining up in the first place.

Which is strange given so many other Hawthorn fans can clearly see the exact same problem too.

 

[TheFourPillars]

We were reigning premiers, still had legends of the game playing and were expected to start slow given the age profile and the fact we started so much later than most of the teams.

We also still played a game style that was unbeatable when we were in form (see the rude demolitions of flag fancies Freo and Sydney in back to back games).

This season we are coming off a flattering top four finish and a straight sets exit. We have two legends left, and one on form shouldn't be playing presently. This is his last season before he enjoys a well earned retirement.

We play a seemingly outdated style that is slow, is the opposite from how all of the current best teams play, and does not maximise any of the strengths of our forwards - we have a small forward line with no contested marking power (bar the young Lewis), but our forwards thrive on quick movement. So instead of moving it fast we just bomb it on top of their heads.

The situations are really not similar.

I agree though we have to rebuild/revitalise the list, we have no choice. Thankfully we still have a quality core of players in the right age group to build around.

The games you're talking about came around after the bye at 3 and 3 there were quite a few chicken littles let me assure u because the media had already started.

Do u also know that carlton can still make finals its not inconceivable. The league is so close at the moment and it doesnt take much to turn things around. We are disjointed as a team.

We will perform better than what we did this weekend i mean we already have so i know we can play better

 

[tommyk72]

The games you're talking about came around after the bye at 3 and 3 there were quite a few chicken littles let me assure u because the media had already started.

Do u also know that carlton can still make finals its not inconceivable. The league is so close at the moment and it doesnt take much to turn things around. We are disjointed as a team.

We will perform better than what we did this weekend i mean we already have so i know we can play better

In my mind, I actually compare use more to 2006 than 2015.

I remember the days when we all sat around criticising Clarko's go-slow game plan. We hated the slow movement into the forward line, the bombing long, etc. But a few insightful people (Brishawk was one I think, you may have been another, and also the training watchers) did some great analysis and outlined how this was a learning process for our team. We were learning one part of a much larger game plan that comprised multiple components. It was a tough period, but the new kids (and even the old hands, given Clarko was still new) had to learn a complex gameplan, and it wasn't always pretty.

I think that game plan had nearly as much to do with the success we had as the champions we now have. So I'm prepared to give the coach the benefit of the doubt, let him have 12-18 months of brining the new guys into line, and then make a more critical judgement.

All is not flowers and chocolates, and this has the chance to produce the goods, but if it doesn't then it's an era down the drain. That being said, everything is a risk these days.

 

[H2F]

I can’t find your original post to quote it. But Judd2Sewell FFS.

‘We play an outdated style’.

I literally cannot believe how thick some people are. I don’t mean to come off abrasive but you are talking about one of, if not the greatest coach of all time.

We are playing a style perfectly engineered (well nothing is perfect, but he’s close to it) on the following parameters.

1) For our development
2) To suit our cattle and best fast-track their development
3) To elevate their skills in the areas that best suit we are at in our development

Do you really think there is a single game style that a AI supercomputer coach would have a team that would win them a flag? No...

Game styles are created and evolved with the strengths of the list and players you have. Created and evolved to push and challenge players and structures to evolve and grow. Clarko spent 2005/06 preparing us for the cluster. He spent 2011-2012 refreshing our list with a new structure for our 2013 assault. It’s incredibly disciplined and in the future will he looked at and retold over and over and maybe end up being the product of a dozen books.

He is in year 2 of his fourth assault and fourth iteration of a flag. I don’t know what amazes me most. That we are going to win another one (I don’t doubt it). That he’s found a way with almost no picks. That he has such amazing discipline to stick at it even in moments of games with absolute resolve. Or that so many supporters are so shortsighted and say things about Alastair Clarkson like, ‘We’re playing an outdated gamestyle’.

Holy crap.

 

[WWSD]

I remember in 2015 despite being 3-3 we could actually hit the scoreboard and had already scored 100+ several times, comparing apples and oranges.

The good old days when Hawthorn would lose and then proceed to thump the opposition the next week.

 

[H2F]

This year is frustrating from a perspective of wins if that’s all your looking at but I’m thoroughly enjoying the ride.

As unfortunate as it was to lose Mitchell at the start of the year there is no way Cousins and Worpell, Howe and even Shiels would have developed like they have. Shield is breaking into elite territory soon. Cousins and Worpell becoming freaks at their maturity and Howe is growing every week.

We’ve lost three close games and could easily be 6/1, if he wasn’t so disciplined and we rotated our midfield more, played temp footy to support us tiring and made other short sighted decisions like playing Wingard midfield when not fit etc.

We are two years from a flag and I remember in 2008 that it was the most exciting win for me of all time. Because I got to see this master build us week to week into the most ‘disciplined team’ I’ve ever seen. We beat Geelong at their ridiculous prime with some very average players in the side.

It’s happening again and you can either choose to enjoy it or be short sided and flat out disrespect / stupid. I’m enjoying it.

Even the choice of Stratton as captain reminds me of Richie Vandenberg and that’s a compliment to Stratton who is chartered with setting the hardness for the team.

Next year when we add Mitchell, Coniglio and one or two others to a battle hardened Worpell, Howe, JOM, Sheila, Cousins and Wingard and Scully our midfield will be scary.

He will already he picking apart the league and seconds teams for the next Poppy type. I see us as 2006 and am really excited.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Slobbo has just gone whack, whack, and whack!!

I have no problem with this. I want even more heat on our team as I have questions marks over certain players honesty in how they’re going about it from week to week. We have been borderline rubbish in so far this season and give way too many excuses for our losses. It’s time for some Real Heat!

 

[Judd2Sewell]

I can’t find your original post to quote it. But Judd2Sewell FFS.

‘We play an outdated style’.

I literally cannot believe how thick some people are. I don’t mean to come off abrasive but you are talking about one of, if not the greatest coach of all time.

We are playing a style perfectly engineered (well nothing is perfect, but he’s close to it) on the following parameters.

1) For our development
2) To suit our cattle and best fast-track their development
3) To elevate their skills in the areas that best suit we are at in our development

Do you really think there is a single game style that a AI supercomputer coach would have a team that would win them a flag? No...

Game styles are created and evolved with the strengths of the list and players you have. Created and evolved to push and challenge players and structures to evolve and grow. Clarko spent 2005/06 preparing us for the cluster. He spent 2011-2012 refreshing our list with a new structure for our 2013 assault. It’s incredibly disciplined and in the future will he looked at and retold over and over and maybe end up being the product of a dozen books.

He is in year 2 of his fourth assault and fourth iteration of a flag. I don’t know what amazes me most. That we are going to win another one (I don’t doubt it). That he’s found a way with almost no picks. That he has such amazing discipline to stick at it even in moments of games with absolute resolve. Or that so many supporters are so shortsighted and say things about Alastair Clarkson like, ‘We’re playing an outdated gamestyle’.

Holy crap.

I hope you're right, but I disagree. The winning teams don't play slow and then bomb it long once all other options have been exhausted (due to the slow play style).

If it's all part of Clarkson's long game then so be it. If it all clicks and we go on to be successful then I will be the first, and be more than happy, to say I got it wrong. Obviously I want to be proven wrong.

I can can agree with your first point, providing that Clarkson wants to stick with the style.

I disagree with the second point. Please explain how it suits or fits our forwards, or our lack of midfield depth? The fact is that it doesn't presently.

I agree that overpossessing or moving it back and forth (E/W) can help with the skills, forcing players to kick in to risky areas, but we just end up bombing it down the line.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Really interesting stuff H2F. Until you said it, I hadn't really seen it, but now it's really obvious.

Clarkson has done this before (2006 definitely, but also early 2012) - howls of criticism for our "lack of gameplan", followed by a sudden switch to a different style (similar to what training observers noted pre-season), chorus of "at last he changed, see I was right this is so much better".....and we all know the rest. Once the players had the "default" system ingrained in them as their "pressured/panic play" we worked on our successful tactic. (The whole 10,000 repetitions to become the natural response)

Teams are usually depicted as either "fast" or "slow". In reality, we are talking about the speed of ball movement. The difference in running speed between teams is minuscule. It's all about the speed of attacking play, based around base positioning and movement patterns.

The easiest way to move the ball quickly is to know where you are going to go before you get the ball. For some players it's natural, we celebrate their 'vision' and 'composure' putting teammates into space - for most that fraction of a second spent 'thinking' about an option allows the opposition to react and close down or pressure those outlet options.

Similarly, players need to know where (and importantly WHEN) to lead to receive the ball in space where they can attack. No point making the perfect lead to arrive after the ball does, or to get there with 2m of space on your opponent, only to stand flat-footed as they crash into you taking the contested mark.

So often in our games, our players literally aren't moving - instead stuck in position, forcing a kick to a contested position. Interestingly however, whether we Win, Lose or Draw that contest, the whole team is seemingly in a set position - essentially creating a setplay opportunity out of broken play.

At the moment, we are losing way more of the contests than we are winning, so we need to get better at it. What better way to get better than to practice it relentlessly, against real opposition? Note that when we do (rarely) win those contests, how often we immediately transition into this fast-running side with scoring opportunities? Also note how when the outcome is drawn (contest) we are usually in position to tackle and/or force an opposition quick kick? We are winning maybe 30% of the contests we need to for this to work. Over time our win/loss ratio of these contested situations will improve.

More importantly, our team is learning where we want the ball to go. The next evolution is for those receiving to learn to hold back - not arriving early and defending space, but hitting the drop zone on the move (removing the pack contest and the chasing opponent). I think this is a huge part of Clarkson supporting the older players - they know the basics, can help hold structure and advise others on correct positioning and making live adjustments. Ideally only 1-2 newbies in any one area to ensure consistency across the field. (We have been carrying 8-10 through necessity, Clarkson preference is ~5)

It will never work 100% of the time, but by setting consistent and controlled contest points on the field, it provides a base for our various zone formations, defensive positioning and overlap runners to be set from.

Then, as our players know where to pass the ball, when to get there to receive the ball, and where the next link in the chain is going to be, our ball movement becomes much faster, players are on the move (not stationary) and suddenly the team has movement and attacking flow.

TLR

• If we aren't good enough to beat bottom-8 teams without "the gameplan", we won't be good enough to win finals.
• We are developing the elements, the building blocks for the future, at the expense of winning 'nothing' games.
• We aren't fit enough, fast enough, smart enough, strong enough, skilled enough or familiar with the gameplan.
• Clarkson is building for 2020-2022 period. He may be starting to worry we have too many missing elements.

 

[Gralin]

I hope you're right, but I disagree. The winning teams don't play slow and then bomb it long once all other options have been exhausted (due to the slow play style).

If it's all part of Clarkson's long game then so be it. If it all clicks and we go on to be successful then I will be the first, and be more than happy, to say I got it wrong. Obviously I want to be proven wrong.

I can can agree with your first point, providing that Clarkson wants to stick with the style.

I disagree with the second point. Please explain how it suits or fits our forwards, or our lack of midfield depth? The fact is that it doesn't presently.

I agree that overpossessing or moving it back and forth (E/W) can help with the skills, forcing players to kick in to risky areas, but we just end up bombing it down the line.

Over Possession and slow build up can come from a lot of things

Off the top of my head

Lack of confidence to pull the trigger on the dangerous play to open it up from the bloke with the footy
Lack of confidence from the team mates to run and create space
Lack of confidence in our ability to win the contest to break early (some call it cheating)

Lack of experience to read the game and see the field meaning the quick decision isn't their to allow the quick ball movement
Lack of experience with the game plan causing team mates to be in the wrong position meaning a second decision has to be made

Lack of cattle putting you on the back foot. On the weekend we got beaten for the ball way to much. We weren't winning it in the middle in an attacking position with an open forward line to kick into. We were also getting beaten so badly around the ball that extra numbers were getting drawn in and the players were waiting proof we'd won the ball before they started moving into attacking positions, so we were slow to transition from defence to attack, and we were starting are attack with the whole team sucked up closer to the ball and the Dees goals than we wanted to. This made everything worse

 

[Milkshaker]

The last few posts are on the money. Good stuff. We have played baffling game styles before. 2005,2006,2007 all had periods where the game plan bordered on bizarre. Clarko sold patience and and constantly stated we are sticking to the plan. Imagine if we had all lost faith after those initial three years.

We are in that place again. The only issue is 6-6-6 has changed the game in 2019 which must be frustrating for sides who are struggling with that format and who recruited their players based around a different set of rules going forward.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

H2F is going to cop some heat for his posts if we don't go at least close to winning a flag by 2022, shall be interesting to see how all this progresses as we move forward.

 

[Gralin]

H2F is going to cop some heat for his posts if we don't go at least close to winning a flag by 2022, shall be interesting to see how all this progresses as we move forward.

That's what you are worrying about? Someone bookmarking this and coming back in three years time and saying hah you were wrong!

 

[SA HAWK]

It's interesting to see our finish in 2018 leading up to the finals that secured us top 4: wins to Essendon by 4 points, Geelong 9 points, St Kilda 4 points and Sydney 9 points. So basically (other than Carlton) we're just not winning the close ones this year. Bit of luck helps a lot in this game!

Essendon, Geelong & Sydney were decent teams last year and they were good wins at the time this year we are losing to shitkickers.

 

[SA HAWK]

Next year when we add Mitchell, Coniglio and one or two others to a battle hardened Worpell, Howe, JOM, Sheila, Cousins and Wingard and Scully our midfield will be scary.

Until Coniglio is signed sealed and delivered it is just speculation.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

That's what you are worrying about? Someone bookmarking this and coming back in three years time and saying hah you were wrong!

I'm hoping like hell H2F is right, but unless this years FA/ Trade period is an insanely good one for us, I can't see that being the case.