NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

That’s doesn’t read well for Burt.

He acknowledges the majority of the scenarios happened, tells of how he can see how they may have felt intimidated, explains that feels uncomfortable about it, and that he knows it was “over the top” but then goes on to say that he has nothing to be sorry for.

Did he also talk of Fagan being in one of the situations that he said he wasn’t present for?

It might have been best for Burt to stay silent.

 

[brooksnk]

That’s doesn’t read well for Burt.

He acknowledges the majority of the scenarios happened, tells of how he can see how they may have felt intimidated, explains that feels uncomfortable about it, and that he knows it was “over the top” but then goes on to say that he has nothing to be sorry for.

Did he also talk of Fagan being in one of the situations that he said he wasn’t present for?

It might have been best for Burt to stay silent.

It really does read well for them though. The only thing you are trying to pin him on is that fact that Clarkson and Fagan joined him to help with the players break up situation. Whether or not he feels he should be apologetic for it - the fact is, while maybe slightly overstepping a boundary, it was a very forgivable error in judgement that deserves nothing more than, at most, "sorry, the three of us shouldn't have all come together, we'll learn from this and do better in the future".

Now, what sort of public reaction and consequence is a minor overstepping like that deserving? What we can gleam from that is, at the very least, they all had good intentions. Of course, good intentions don't relieve misdoings - but it paints a different picture when you can appreciate that those involved were sincerely trying to do their best to support a young man in a highly unique, highly professional, sports environment. Taking that into account, what we are left with is a single, minor instance of honest misjudgement.

Instead, we had an ABC article vilifying Burt, Fagan and Clarkson as racist demagogues who cant help but to tell indigenous players' wives to 'kill their babies' - and the subsequent wider media and public hanging of those three, a protracted investigation and peoples lives being ruined before our eyes.

 

[blackshadow]

Based on what Burt said you’d have to think Jackson The ABC, Binmada and Hawthorn are all in the gun for defamation claims…

 

[travelli]

Based on what Burt said you’d have to think Jackson The ABC, Binmada and Hawthorn are all in the gun for defamation claims…

That's what I thought. They are setting up for the next step. Defamation.

The mental pain and suffering that they are experiencing from the "false" allegations are being actively communicated in the media

 

[JackOutback]

Way to show how much your hatred and bile trumps all.

Nah, I don’t hate my kids, no matter how much they annoy me.

 

[Underarm]

See Clarko, it's that simple. Nothing stopping anyone from writing this last October.

 

[Underarm]

I'm glad Burt finally put his version of events.

I'm glad he confirms some of the stories and admits blame - and I hope it puts to bed any idea that the victims are lying just for a quick buck.

He admits the intimidated a players GF when they rocked up. He admitted there were talks about how long a player could/should go home for to see their pregnant partner. He admits there were hard conversations about what it takes to being a father.

Sometimes we say things that are misinterpreted, especially when different cultures are involved, and especially when 1 culture has a history of being told what to do by the other. All Clubs are guilty of this in one way or the other and need to get better at handling these situations.

 

[r_boy]

I'm glad Burt finally put his version of events.

I'm glad he confirms some of the stories and admits blame - and I hope it puts to bed any idea that the victims are lying just for a quick buck.

He admits the intimidated a players GF when they rocked up. He admitted there were talks about how long a player could/should go home for to see their pregnant partner. He admits there were hard conversations about what it takes to being a father.

Sometimes we say things that are misinterpreted, especially when different cultures are involved, and especially when 1 culture has a history of being told what to do by the other. All Clubs are guilty of this in one way or the other and need to get better at handling these situations.

That's a one sided view of the article if I've ever read one.

There is a huge discrepancy between the original ABC article vs Burts account.

 

[blackshadow]

That's a one sided view of the article if I've ever read one.

There is a huge discrepancy between the original ABC article vs Burts account.

There’s none so blind as those who don’t want to see…

 

[Stax on the mill]

Based on what Burt said you’d have to think Jackson The ABC, Binmada and Hawthorn are all in the gun for defamation claims…

Hopefully.

 

[sr36]

Based on what Burt said you’d have to think Jackson The ABC, Binmada and Hawthorn are all in the gun for defamation claims…

The forced break up story was interesting for what was omitted.

His story is basically: Player confides in welfare officer that he's got concerns about how quickly things have moved with his pregnant fiance. Welfare officer suggests they put things on hold. Then the story cuts straight to welfare officer and coaches at house to help enact break up.

One doesn't lead directly to the other. What happened in between?

This certainly doesn't contradict the player's account of being hauled into a meeting with the three and being told he's got to break up with his fiance and then having the three drive around to his house and coercing him to do so.

 

[blackshadow]

The forced break up story was interesting for what was omitted.

His story is basically: Player confides in welfare officer that he's got concerns about how quickly things have moved with his pregnant fiance. Welfare officer suggests they put things on hold. Then the story cuts straight to welfare officer and coaches at house to help enact break up.

One doesn't lead directly to the other. What happened in between?

This certainly doesn't contradict the player's account of being hauled into a meeting with the three and being told he's got to break up with his fiance and then having the three drive around to his house and coercing him to do so.

I imagine quite a lot of the two hour interview has been omitted. I wonder if more will come out in future articles.

One point I found rather curious is Burt being asked if there were past Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islanders who had a grievance with the club. To me this suggests that the investigation had a focus on looking for disgruntled former players rather than all player experiences.

 

[sr36]

One point I found rather curious is Burt being asked if there were past Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islanders who had a grievance with the club. To me this suggests that the investigation had a focus on looking for disgruntled former players rather than all player experiences.

Yes that was interesting. When was the review announced. It could have been the Hawks trying to see whether they were likely to get a negative review before opting for the review. I tend to believe the review was an attempt at positive PR that went horribly wrong.

 

[Underarm]

That's a one sided view of the article if I've ever read one.

There is a huge discrepancy between the original ABC article vs Burts account.

12ft

12ft.io

Burt revealed his major regret was that he should have gone alone, rather than with Clarkson and Fagan, to the home of Zac when the player was telling his then partner and now wife, Kylie, that he was ending the relationship.

“I think that’s the part that overstepped the mark from being supportive to what could be deemed intimidating. And I get that and that’s what makes me feel uncomfortable,” Burt said.

Burt is clear now that the intervention was “over the top”. “It probably should have been just me in with Zac ... I think that would have been far less intimidating.

Family separations and pregnancy termination: Hawthorn racism review reveals shock allegations against former coaches

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan are named in a Hawthorn review into how First Nations players were treated during Clarkson's time at the helm of the Hawks. Warning — this story contains details of self-harm, pregnancy loss, and intergenerational trauma for Indigenous people.

www.abc.net.au

Kylie still has emails and notes describing what followed: just after 1.10pm that day, a convoy of cars arrived out the front of her and Zac's home.

She says Zac was led into the living room by Clarkson , Fagan and Burt, the latter moving outside with Kylie's mum; the couple were still waiting to inform her of the pregnancy.

Kylie can recall asking the men what was going on, explaining how trapped she felt. She says Clarkson abruptly told her it "wouldn't be a pleasant conversation", that her and Zac's relationship was over, that contact between the pair would cease immediately, and that the only thing left was for Zac to collect his belongings.

Seems like these stories match up pretty close.

Burt also says no one was ever talked to about terminating the pregnancy. According to the ABC article Burt was never implicated as being part of that conversation. He did however admit today that he had a "challenging conversation with him around, there’s some things he needs to work on to be ready to be a dad".

Burt has a different recollection. “I think it was Liam’s diligence to be the best player he can be, I think he twisted ... what we were saying to him about how long he could spend home because he wanted to come back and he wanted to train and he wanted to give himself the best platform to be an AFL player.

Again, here Burt admits the conversation existed.

I Believe Burts version of events are true from Burt's point of view. That doesn't mean these conversations weren't interpreted differently from the young players point of view.

 

[ferball]

Depends on the event. I would think that miscarriages, abortions, being told that football is more important than your relationship, etc would all stay fairly fresh of mind.

I have strong recollections of things 40 years ago, but cant remember where I left the cat last week.

yeah but how accurate are your memories?

I swear mine are but that doesn't mean they are.

This is a good place to start learning about the subject. Lots of good references.

We have reviewed a number of areas in which the judicial system relies heavily or solely on memory evidence. This is by no means an exhaustive review as there are many other cases where the judiciary relies on people's memories to educe whether a crime has or has not occurred. What we did review revealed that there are still gaps between what the science of memory tells us about the reliability of memory, what clinical practitioners believe, and what triers of fact need to know about memory in order to give proper weight to memory evidence.

 

[ferball]

“I’m still very willing to go and tell my truth when the opportunity arises, which it still hasn’t.”

Hahahaha.

So a guy literally has a microphone in your face, and you literally have a public audience right now....

That;s hardly an appropriate forum for it and ...ren't they still bound by a confidentiality agreement?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It really does read well for them though.

I guess you see what you want to see, but he said that the talk of termination had “never happened in my presence” rather than “no one implied or suggested that ever”.
Might have just been a misuse of words, but I can see how people would think he’s just exonerating himself.

 

[yodellinhank]

Well, well, well Burt goes on record directly contradicting a number of the claims made against him, Clarkson and Fagan.

Puts some context around what happened at the time.

Colour me surprised!

‘I’ve got nothing to say sorry for’: Jason Burt responds to Hawthorn allegations

Former Hawthorn welfare manager Jason Burt publicly addresses the allegations made against him for the first time, saying he is “bruised” and “hurt”. Burt slams the AFL and the Hawks for their handling of the saga.

www.theage.com.au

But but but nobody has a right of reply

 

[Rob R]

Based on what Burt said you’d have to think Jackson The ABC, Binmada and Hawthorn are all in the gun for defamation claims…

And the players as he places blame as well on them for not passing on information accurately or the players partners for exaggerating either way, they are the source of the potentially false and damaging allegations (assuming Burt is being truthful which will never be verified unless it goes to court and all parties are cross examined etc)

Nice little snipe at the end from one of lawyers about declining mediation and going to the media when the players are the ones who spoke to the media first.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[ferball]

Why would he know what's going on, he wasn't there. Or do you think Aboriginal people share some mystical groupthink? They're people, like you and me. If he has a good relationship with Clarkson, that will inform his views, and has absolutely one fifth of * all to do with whether Clarkson did what was alleged.

Why does it have to be mystical groupthink? It could be the phone. Or do you think Aboriginal people can't use technology?

The report specifically makes reference to something called "The Black Grapevine". There are communication networks all over the country between people who've met at festivals, working on cultural stuff or even just via various unis that have indigenous colleges.

I would say that if Jy wanted to find out various people's opinions of this situation, including by contacting the players or Egan or even just their extended families, then he could have. Whether he did or not is another question. Often when Indigenous Australians who've never met before and don't know each other or each others family meet they will ask specifically who/where someone's mob or country is.

And then if you know someone from those places you'll mention them. Non indigenous people do the same thing just use different terms. We all search for connection with other people.

Anyway he's had enough time around Clarkson to make up his own mind about the guy's character.

 

[yodellinhank]

Why does it have to be mystical groupthink? It could be the phone. Or do you think Aboriginal people can't use technology?

Still got his sim card?

 

[ferball]

Still got his sim card?

Nah he hid it with some spreadsheets to stop anything like this happening again.

 

[M Malice]

None of what has come forward in the Burt interview could be interpreted as definite racism IMO, there would have been similar occurrences with Caucasian players who had welfare issues during that period of time.

 

[Underarm]

None of what has come forward in the Burt interview could be interpreted as definite racism IMO, there would have been similar occurrences with Caucasian players who had welfare issues during that period of time.

"I'm not racist, just bad at my job!"

 

[r_boy]

12ft

12ft.io

Family separations and pregnancy termination: Hawthorn racism review reveals shock allegations against former coaches

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan are named in a Hawthorn review into how First Nations players were treated during Clarkson's time at the helm of the Hawks. Warning — this story contains details of self-harm, pregnancy loss, and intergenerational trauma for Indigenous people.

www.abc.net.au

Seems like these stories match up pretty close.

Burt also says no one was ever talked to about terminating the pregnancy. According to the ABC article Burt was never implicated as being part of that conversation. He did however admit today that he had a "challenging conversation with him around, there’s some things he needs to work on to be ready to be a dad".



Again, here Burt admits the conversation existed.

I Believe Burts version of events are true from Burt's point of view. That doesn't mean these conversations weren't interpreted differently from the young players point of view.

Okay, cool.

It's still plainly inconsequential relative to the accusations in the original ABC article, which was my point.

Do you disagree?