NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[buttox]

Of course it can be.

It's not a new concept. Behaviour needs to be altered all the time.

Ever taken your shoes off at a Japanese person's house?

Or made fun of your Aussie mate's accent, but not your Indian mate's?

Or eaten with your right hand at an Arab's place?


Most people adjust their behaviour all the time to cater for cultural differences.

Achieving the same level of respect - can often mean behaving differently.

Having travelled a fair bit I love this part of life. Learning new things from new people is fun. You would have to be pretty arrogant to never be able to change such trivial actions in company that might be offended by it.
But I may have to draw the line at the shoes off thing due to foot odor issues.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Here and overseas now? Mate, you don't understand the fundamentals of journalism, adding more mayo to your claims isn't convincing anyone.

And my user name has no correlation to to my location, it was an old reference. That said, being from WA, I've actually met a lot of Indigenous people, something that can't always be said of people from Melbourne. They are part of my family. I never needed a personal recommendation to speak to anyone. You're taking a comment about Indigenous people being wary of the media (as many people are) and deciding 1+1=3.

Many Aboriginal youngsters who come into football clubs are extremely nervous and extremely wary of the media. It can be a frightening experience for someone who does not speak English as their first language. Many players who go through private schools and VCE are trained in oral and persuasive techniques. Many of our Aboriginal boys are not.

 

[buttox]

Many Aboriginal youngsters who come into football clubs are extremely nervous and extremely wary of the media. It can be a frightening experience for someone who does not speak English as their first language. Many players who go through private schools and VCE are trained in oral and persuasive techniques. Many of our Aboriginal boys are not.

You know I've learnt more from you in this thread about aboriginal culture than I ever did at school.
Appreciate the insight mate.
But the pies still suck. (This last bit I feel is necessary on the main board)

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I find it a bit strange Brisbane and North are ploughing ahead with Clarko and Fagan getting back to work and starting their jobs respectively.

Something has to give here.

If you take what Russel Jackson wrote at face value, Clarko, Fagan and the Hawks were running an operation where they were right at the coal face of what was going on: from buying SIM cards, to telling players it was good for their career to abort babies.

Throw in the race angle and it is one of the biggest cluster*s a sports’ club could have.

No doubt Clarko and Fagan will deny it during this review. But, rightly or wrongly, it’s 2022 now. The concept of “my truth” is de riguer and no way will a group of indigenous players and their partners be told their truth is wrong considering the history of Australia.

As I said, cluster* and no idea how Clarko or Fagan can get out of it or that there will be no fallout. I mean, barring Jackson saying he wrote lies, how could there be?

So I wonder why Brisbane and the Roos are ploughing ahead with both coaches working as if everything will go back to normal one day.

It’s just not possible to see it happening with this story.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You know I've learnt more from you in this thread about aboriginal culture than I ever did at school.
Appreciate the insight mate.
But the pies still suck. (This last bit I feel is necessary on the main board)

Cheers mate. Really appreciate it. Would have been disappointed if there wasn't a Pies sledge. Go Pies and never forget that even though this thread has been about Hawks, Lions and Kangas, it has really been about 'Black and White'

 

[Psicosis]

I find it a bit strange Brisbane and North are ploughing ahead with Clarko and Fagan getting back to work and starting their jobs respectively.

Something has to give here.

If you take what Russel Jackson wrote at face value, Clarko, Fagan and the Hawks were running an operation where they were right at the coal face of what was going on: from buying SIM cards, to telling players it was good for their career to abort babies.

Throw in the race angle and it is one of the biggest cluster*s a sports’ club could have.

No doubt Clarko and Fagan will deny it during this review. But, rightly or wrongly, it’s 2022 now. The concept of “my truth” is de riguer and no way will a group of indigenous players and their partners be told their truth is wrong considering the history of Australia.

As I said, cluster* and no idea how Clarko or Fagan can get out of it or that there will be no fallout. I mean, barring Jackson saying he wrote lies, how could there be?

So I wonder why Brisbane and the Roos are ploughing ahead with both coaches working as if everything will go back to normal one day.

It’s just not possible to see it happening with this story.

Ross Lyon sexual harassment video emerges

Secret AFL sex harassment video twist

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[buttox]

Cheers mate. Really appreciate it. Would have been disappointed if there wasn't a Pies sledge. Go Pies and never forget that even though this thread has been about Hawks, Lions and Kangas, it has really been about 'Black and White'

Well imo it's improved me as a person with new knowledge. I realise I've been doing some things wrong through sheer ignorance. Live and learn.
Hopefully we are all better people tomorrow than yesterday.
Do you know any good books I can read on the subject?

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Ross Lyon sexual harassment video emerges

Secret AFL sex harassment video twist

www.foxsports.com.au

Sorry, don’t see the relevance to my post.

If Russell Jackson comes out tomorrow and writes an article about Ross Lyon accusing him of racism and having interviewed witnesses from his time at Freo, then Ross’s position would be untenable.

North and Lions are collateral damage as would the Saints be in the above scenario I’ve painted.

It’s not a point-scoring thing.

 

[Psicosis]

Sorry, don’t see the relevance to my post.

If Russell Jackson comes out tomorrow and writes an article about Ross Lyon accusing him of racism and having interviewed witnesses from his time at Freo, then Ross’s position would be untenable.

North and Lions are collateral damage as would the Saints be in the above scenario I’ve painted.

It’s not a point-scoring thing.

It’s relevant as clubs will believe what they want to believe, in both cases.

 

[sr36]

Are Brisbane so desperate for their messiah they'll risk everything too?

Is that going to be a good look if this goes they way you expect

I think they'll both be giving public apologies of wrongdoing made incredibly hollow by their denials of wrongdoing. And back to work straight away will add to it.

 

[GroggSquad]

If you take what Russel Jackson wrote at face value

Who is taking Russel Jackson at face value?

 

[ferball]

I did read your post last night, if its the different views on body language and eye contact which has been discussed previously in this thread.

I've only been in this thread since Simmo's thread was merged here so I might have missed earlier discussion about body language.

But the whole point of that - how many people here already knew that protocol? Its different to something westerners think is an instinctive human reaction. If Clarko acts like that expecting that everyone else does, especially young men with enough balls to make it to an AFL squad, then unless he's been taught otherwise by the people responsible for maintaining cultutral awareness - was that even a thing then? - what wrongdoing has he done?

I also don't think it's fair to say something wasn't racist because it happened 10 years ago and those were different times.

You can say clubs weren't as well equipped but again racism is at play in not being equipped to deal with other cultures.

There is a massive difference between overt malicious racism and these other embedded sorts that frankly ... we're only dealing with them because we've actually seen a really high level of success in dealing with the worst aspects of racism - the overt malicious stuff. Unless Clarkson behaved like a prick because he doesn't like black people ie was being overtly malicious. But that is at odds with his time in football. I don't understand why this is about some individuals when its most likely about the failure of the Hawthorn Board to implement effective cultural sensitivity policies. And even then how were they advised that this is a necessary series of policies to implement?

We can't prove what someone was thinking when they did something but we should be able to identify patterns that can be linked to systemic racism at the very least and either confirm they were in play or not

So what's your definition of systemic racism?

 

[ferball]

There doesn't need to be formal charges to stand someone down if there is a risk of harm. As I said they may have assessed this and have appropriate controls in place. But I'm not assuming anything. Is it only Clarkson going back to work or is Fagan going back also?

What harm is he at risk of causing?

 

[ferball]

Every school report I ever got said I need to think before I speak. I discovered pot and have never looked back.
Go have a dooby and chill out bud. Your way too invested.

This is meant as friendly advice and not as a personal attack.

Be careful that stuff doesn't you into trouble on the main board. Its pretty puritanical.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

It’s relevant as clubs will believe what they want to believe, in both cases.

Depends on the issue really: if it’s like drugs or race (or sexual harassment), it is out of the AFL’s hands with regard to them being able to control the narrative.

If that case was a case big enough one for Ross Lyon to have lost his job over (remember it was in the midst of the #metoo movement) he would have been sacked. He’s since been employed in the media.

As I said, if the investigation backs up what was written in Jackson’s article, there is no possible way back for Clarko or Fagan.

And I’m struggling to foresee a scenario where what Jackson has written is proven to be lies (this is the era of “my truth”).

 

[The Warlord]

I think they'll both be giving public apologies of wrongdoing made incredibly hollow by their denials of wrongdoing. And back to work straight away will add to it.

It's hard to say. I can certainly see apologies coming but don't see why they'd be hollow if they come after genuine mediation

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Who is taking Russel Jackson at face value?

Sorry, I’ve been busy the past couple of weeks so haven’t read everything in the media.

Has he/those who he interviewed come out and retracted anything? Is what he wrote in dispute now?

 

[buttox]

Be careful that stuff doesn't you into trouble on the main board. Its pretty puritanical.

I'll leave it up to the mods.
Maybe I learn something new today. It wouldn't be the worst result.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Well imo it's improved me as a person with new knowledge. I realise I've been doing some things wrong through sheer ignorance. Live and learn.
Hopefully we are all better people tomorrow than yesterday.
Do you know any good books I can read on the subject?

We are all learning mate and that is the great thing in life and we have all made mistakes through sheer ignorance. Jump on SBS ON Demand and have a look at 'The Australian Wars'. I think they are up to 3 episodes. I love books from personal accounts so just finished Gulpilil by Rielly. I am currently reading Broomes 'Aboriginal Australia'. I will message you plenty of others in the coming days if that is ok. Movies like Rabbit Proof Fence show enormous courage and give a small insight into Stolen Generation but do not show even 1 percent of the brutality of places like Moore River. These places were hell on earth. They broke people, broke the Aboriginal out of you. Beat you to you were white. Many children died there, they never found there home. Stolen forever. They are the true stolen generation.

 

[josephine666]

Have people here read the accounts from the report or only the ABC article? The accounts were published by the HS with the report but taken down later a few minutes later. I thought someone posted them in this thread but I might be mistaken.

For those that have, do you get the sense that 'Ian' didn't actually participate in the review and that quotes in the report attributed to Ian were actually provided by his ex-partner from what he told her some months later when they reconciled?

 

[buttox]

We are all learning mate and that is the great thing in life and we have all made mistakes through sheer ignorance. Jump on SBS ON Demand and have a look at 'The Australian Wars'. I think they are up to 3 episodes. I love books from personal accounts so just finished Gulpilil by Rielly. I am currently reading Broomes 'Aboriginal Australia'. I will message you plenty of others in the coming days if that is ok. Movies like Rabbit Proof Fence show enormous courage and give a small insight into Stolen Generation but do not show even 1 percent of the brutality of places like Moore River. These places were hell on earth. They broke people, broke the Aboriginal out of you. Beat you to you were white. Many children died there, they never found there home. Stolen forever. They are the true stolen generation.

Cheers I will have a look at these.

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

He’s since been employed in the media.

The media, famously anti-sex pest

 

[austinnn]

Ross Lyon sexual harassment video emerges

Secret AFL sex harassment video twist

www.foxsports.com.au

What a pathetic response

 

[Tas]

I find it a bit strange Brisbane and North are ploughing ahead with Clarko and Fagan getting back to work and starting their jobs respectively.

If someone accused you of doing something and you say you are innocent, would you want your employer to force you out of your job? I find there is a lot of judgemental hypocrisy when s**t involves someone else. For example, the numerous believe all women guys stance has always lasted a nanosecond the moment they were accused of sexual assault, then they became born again believers in innocent until proven guilty and due process.

Something has to give here.

Something will give if they are found to have been guilty of something serious.

If you take what Russel Jackson wrote at face value, Clarko, Fagan and the Hawks were running an operation where they were right at the coal face of what was going on: from buying SIM cards, to telling players it was good for their career to abort babies.

That is the problem, you can't take anonymous accusations at face value. These stories need to be distilled down into facts as to who did/said what, when and where and who else was around and the context of what happened and with the removal of hearsay as evidence. This process would likely weed out the vast majority of the story and the panel would then be able to focus on what went down at Hawthorn and how the different parties responded.

Throw in the race angle and it is one of the biggest cluster*s a sports’ club could have.

From Mitchell's book it is evident that Clarkson was a bit of prick regardless of your race, even in his account there were things that went over the line but not really something worthy of him being sacked for. I think he learnt from when he was younger and adjusted how he handles players since then. The vast majority of indigenous players didn't have any issue with him, can someone be selectively racist? I don't know, why would a racist recruit so many indigenous players if he was racist? There were a lot of lily white sides over the years and I don't think it had anything to do with a lack of access but they don't get tarred with the racist accusation. It would be sad if someone who embraced indigenous in AFL went down as a racist trying to help them make it in the AFL.

But, we can't discount it as a possibility until we have the investigation and find out exactly what happened at Hawthorn during that period.

No doubt Clarko and Fagan will deny it during this review. But, rightly or wrongly, it’s 2022 now. The concept of “my truth” is de riguer and no way will a group of indigenous players and their partners be told their truth is wrong considering the history of Australia.

What does this bullshit even mean?

As I said, cluster* and no idea how Clarko or Fagan can get out of it or that there will be no fallout. I mean, barring Jackson saying he wrote lies, how could there be?

He has already defended his piece by calling it "their story" which story can mean a lie or fictional work. It is the same gobbledygook as "my truth". We don't destroy lives with accusations or stories, it has to come from the truth and the exploration of facts and applying the rigours of examination to these accounts.

My truth or story might mean I regret decisions I made in the past and it is easier for me to blame someone else than have to live with the guilt. It doesn't mean we need to accept my delusion as a mass delusion of the public.

Clarkson and Fagan may be guilty of what they have been accused of and more, who knows. If they go down, it has to be done with unadulterated fact and with the context of what the environment was at the time.

So I wonder why Brisbane and the Roos are ploughing ahead with both coaches working as if everything will go back to normal one day.

Because we have a contract in place and they have claimed they are innocent of the things they have been accused of, it would be untenable to wait until after this investigation is over some time next year or not have a coach in place to prepare for next year. They either have to be allowed to resume or clubs have to terminate them, if we terminate them then it will trigger legal action.

It’s just not possible to see it happening with this story.

That is a big part of the problem, we need to progress past stories and into a forum where accusations can be tested with evidence and facts. This isn't something that can be tried by journalists, especially the ABC who have been guilty of defamation in the past.

 

[South of the Yarra]

If someone accused you of doing something and you say you are innocent, would you want your employer to force you out of your job? I find there is a lot of judgemental hypocrisy when s**t involves someone else. For example, the numerous believe all women guys stance has always lasted a nanosecond the moment they were accused of sexual assault, then they became born again believers in innocent until proven guilty and due process.



Something will give if they are found to have been guilty of something serious.



That is the problem, you can't take anonymous accusations at face value. These stories need to be distilled down into facts as to who did/said what, when and where and who else was around and the context of what happened and with the removal of hearsay as evidence. This process would likely weed out the vast majority of the story and the panel would then be able to focus on what went down at Hawthorn and how the different parties responded.




From Mitchell's book it is evident that Clarkson was a bit of prick regardless of your race, even in his account there were things that went over the line but not really something worthy of him being sacked for. I think he learnt from when he was younger and adjusted how he handles players since then. The vast majority of indigenous players didn't have any issue with him, can someone be selectively racist? I don't know, why would a racist recruit so many indigenous players if he was racist? There were a lot of lily white sides over the years and I don't think it had anything to do with a lack of access but they don't get tarred with the racist accusation. It would be sad if someone who embraced indigenous in AFL went down as a racist trying to help them make it in the AFL.

But, we can't discount it as a possibility until we have the investigation and find out exactly what happened at Hawthorn during that period.



What does this bullshit even mean?



He has already defended his piece by calling it "their story" which story can mean a lie or fictional work. It is the same gobbledygook as "my truth". We don't destroy lives with accusations or stories, it has to come from the truth and the exploration of facts and applying the rigours of examination to these accounts.

My truth or story might mean I regret decisions I made in the past and it is easier for me to blame someone else than have to live with the guilt. It doesn't mean we need to accept my delusion as a mass delusion of the public.

Clarkson and Fagan may be guilty of what they have been accused of and more, who knows. If they go down, it has to be done with unadulterated fact and with the context of what the environment was at the time.



Because we have a contract in place and they have claimed they are innocent of the things they have been accused of, it would be untenable to wait until after this investigation is over some time next year or not have a coach in place to prepare for next year. They either have to be allowed to resume or clubs have to terminate them, if we terminate them then it will trigger legal action.



That is a big part of the problem, we need to progress past stories and into a forum where accusations can be tested with evidence and facts. This isn't something that can be tried by journalists, especially the ABC who have been guilty of defamation in the past.

You have no idea if other Aboriginal players had an issue with Clarkson or not