Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Yoda_]

Well if just ignore the entire premise of this thread ever existing, being that Hawthorn started with a brand new midfield in 2023, bottom out…. Sure.

2019 Peter Crimmins medalist James Worpell disagrees

 

[Yoda_]

BigFooty has peaked when three club player Mabior Chol

18

Mabior Chol

Age

27

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

is being talked about as a better player than premiership forward Brodie Mihocek



Don’t do drugs kids, it fries your brain

 

[Yoda_]

What's been the player turnover for both sides in that period. Pretty simplistic way to look at things. Pies were ahead in their window compared to us before McRae got there he just freshened up the place and the rest is history.

I wish more people would actually open their eyes. (I am agreeing with you btw). Craig Macrae’s premiership had something like 16 players from the grand final loss to the Weagles. It was not like he currently took a bottom feeder side from rags to riches. The seeds were well and truly sown before he arrived

 

[peetoo]

Cats are on top of the ladder with a midfield as young as the Hawks, playing a different brand of footy to either of the two Scott flags.

This is the context I was responding to

The brand new midfield was at the instigation of the coach, hence the thread.

So if after 50 odd games the players are still learning the system, perhaps the coach isn't so good at the job of coaching players, despite all the spirited defence of said coach. Unless perhaps he is excellent at it but choosing not to?

It took McRae one preseason to teach his players the system, it took Chris Scott one preseason. It took Adam Kingsley about a third of a year.

I am posing a legitimate question, no doubt you will come up with some dismissive post in response as you usually do.

Other coaches seem to be able to teach a system in a preseason, Mitchell has had three preseasons. Other teams have injuries and other teams recruit forwards in the off season.

 

[The 747]

What's been the player turnover for both sides in that period. Pretty simplistic way to look at things. Pies were ahead in their window compared to us before McRae got there he just freshened up the place and the rest is history.

I think you might find that player turnover is very similar, if anything the Pies have turned over more.

 

[boncer34]

Scott hardly touched the system just wasn’t as much of a dick

They'd also lost the best player of the past 20 years.

Hawthorn lost arguably the second best and their fans carried on like it was a minor miracle their premiership winning team won again.

 

[sr36]

This is the context I was responding to

What I meant was the "new system" thing that SYL was going with isn't valid. He's been there for over 2 years - a cohesive system should be in place. The playing list however is a valid excuse.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

What I meant was the "new system" thing that SYL was going with isn't valid. He's been there for over 2 years - a cohesive system should be in place. The playing list however is a valid excuse.

It’s completely valid.

We brought 3 new forwards into our forward half for the start of 2024.
We then lost 2 of our regulars within the first month, and had to ask players like Chol to take the number 1 forward mantle.
It was always going to take time for them to click together, and they’ve barely had the chance to do it.

 

[smish]

They'd also lost the second best player of the past 20 years.

Hawthorn lost the best and their fans carried on like it was a minor miracle their premiership winning team won again.

EFA

 

[sr36]

It’s completely valid.

We brought 3 new forwards into our forward half for the start of 2024.
We then lost 2 of our regulars within the first month, and had to ask players like Chol to take the number 1 forward mantle.
It was always going to take time for them to click together, and they’ve barely had the chance to do it.

Yes and Collingwood will play a brand new system this weekend as we have either 4 or 5 of our first choice forwards out. Except we won't - they've been coached to play our system - some of them for a preseason and some of them for two and a third years. We won't be as good, but it'll be the same system.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yes and Collingwood will play a brand new system this weekend as we have either 4 or 5 of our first choice forwards out. Except we won't - they've been coached to play our system - some of them for a preseason and some of them for two and a third years. We won't be as good, but it'll be the same system.

That’s great, but doesn’t change a thing I said.

We’ve not had any continuity with our forwards all year due to injury.

 

[sr36]

That’s great, but doesn’t change a thing I said.

We’ve not had any continuity with our forwards all year due to injury.

No you were actually talking about a brand new system - not just different personnel playing roles within the system. It's quite different.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

No you were actually talking about a brand new system - not just different personnel playing roles within the system. It's quite different.

No I was not! You’re convoluting two things.
Hawthorn is still bedding down their gamestyle and execution of it, which is inconsistent at best, but I also specifically mentioned that we had new players in side who have needed to build cohesion and understanding, which has been hindered by the revolving door of injuries so far in 2024.

 

[Vindicater]

Third tall, unless you want to call players like Gunston and Fritsch KPF

Let me guess you class Stringer as a KPF as well.

Mihocek plays nothing like any of those three players so no I don't think Stringer is a KPF.

 

[sr36]

No I was not! You’re convoluting two things.
Hawthorn is still bedding down their gamestyle and execution of it, which is inconsistent at best, but I also specifically mentioned that we had new players in side who have needed to build cohesion and understanding, which has been hindered by the revolving door of injuries so far in 2024.

You really struggle to own what you write. You're talking about bedding down our system - that's more than new faces. That's working out what the heck your game plan is.

I’m not the one saying all players play the same way in the same system, I literally called out that Chol has been asked to play in a new role in a new team with little support, within a side that’s still bedding down its system with so many new faces.

Mihocek should have far better stats than he does for you to claim he’s a superior player, particularly when he’s also spending 10% more TOG, in a far more experienced team that knows its system inside out.

He’s a role player.

 

[sr36]

Mihocek plays nothing like any of those three players so no I don't think Stringer is a KPF.

Stringer can play any role that doesn't require too much running. He does occasionally play KPF, but not usually.

 

[boncer34]

I also point to a random 7 game stretch where my player is behind in the averages and claim victory.

Nothing glaringly wrong with that.

 

[faible]

It's pretty hard to avoid kicking long to aerial contests and having blokes whose role it is to compete in an aerial contest. He might not meet your tape measure requirements, but he plays the role of a kpf. And it's blokes like Weitering and May who match up on him.

Essendon used to play Alwyn Davey as a CHF, that doesn't make him a KPF.

 

[eth-dog]

I also point to a random 7 game stretch where my player is behind in the averages and claim victory.

Nothing glaringly wrong with that.

To be fair, Chol is only 1 goal away from equalling his second best goals tally ever.

 

[nelk boys]

To be fair, Chol is only 1 goal away from equalling his second best goals tally ever.

If he can get 30+ goals, that would significantly help us. No reason he shouldn't be expecting this either.

 

[eth-dog]

If he can get 30+ goals, that would significantly help us. No reason he shouldn't be expecting this either.

The fact that he's kicked more than 10 once in his career?

He's s**t. Sam Weideman had 13 goals in 8 games and finished on 15 in 16.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You really struggle to own what you write. You're talking about bedding down our system - that's more than new faces. That's working out what the * your game plan is.

Semantics.
I’ll write it again in another way, and hopefully you will understand it. We have the second youngest list in the comp, still trying to bed down and execute its gamestyle consistently, while also trying to bring 3 new forwards into the system who’ve had to then play different roles due to injuries to 2 of our staples(Breust and Lewis).

 

[sr36]

Semantics.
I’ll write it again in another way, and hopefully you will understand it. We have the second youngest list in the comp, still trying to bed down and execute its gamestyle consistently, while also trying to bring 3 new forwards into the system who’ve had to then play different roles due to injuries to 2 of our staples(Breust and Lewis).

So two and a half years and the gamestyle is still being bedded down.

Do you think this is normal? Perhaps if they had've kept their senior players this may have gone a bit quicker?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So two and a half years and the gamestyle is still being bedded down.

Do you think this is normal? Perhaps if they had've kept their senior players this may have gone a bit quicker?

It’s completely normal for a side as young as ours to add parts of the gamestyle and build on them as they go, and it’s also completely normal that consistency with executing it will fluctuate when injury and inexperience are involved.
We have seen this is a few ways over the last 18 months and CD have proven this to be true.

In 2023 we were the 16th best side at defending transition, as of Round 8 in 2024 we are 3rd.

 

[HairyO]

No you were actually talking about a brand new system - not just different personnel playing roles within the system. It's quite different.

You think you use the same system when you have 2 experienced 2m tall forwards sharing the KPF role and when you have a 195cm tall kid being the only KPF?

Id say you would make a terrible coach.