This screenshot is from the community football HIA. It's different to what is used in the AFL competition.
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Independent doctors at every match
- Thread starter Sainter1873
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Teal Leviathan
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That explains a lot, actually...
Teal Leviathan
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Andrew Dillon fails to see the problem. The problem is not the club doctor - you could see he was trying to do the right thing and it was pretty clear the Cameron didn't want to come off the ground. If you had an independent doctor, you could then put a governance structure in place around them: if a player refuses to come off the ground when asked, the player/club is fined, suspended, whatever. But you've got Buckley's of that happening with a club doctor because of the pressure they get put under.
In my son's junior team, any player who has a suspected head knock is taken off the ground into a quiet room and goes through the test against the baseline they recorded earlier in the year. That is the level I'd expect to see at the AFL level - asking them one or two questions, during the heat of an incredibly close game is a laugh. There is no way known the assessment could be done properly in that time. And, of course, turns out it wasn't. He was concussed after all.
In my son's junior team, any player who has a suspected head knock is taken off the ground into a quiet room and goes through the test against the baseline they recorded earlier in the year. That is the level I'd expect to see at the AFL level - asking them one or two questions, during the heat of an incredibly close game is a laugh. There is no way known the assessment could be done properly in that time. And, of course, turns out it wasn't. He was concussed after all.
This is the part they are staying incredibly quiet on as they brush this one under the rug.
“There (are) two levels of concussion management — the HIA, which is that test across five minutes, and then if the doctor believes they need to take them off the ground that’s the SCAT6, and that would’ve ended his night — that’s a 15-minute test”.
There is no way that Cameron was being assessed for 5 minutes to undertake the HIA appropriately.
Again that’s not due to doctor incompetence but that fact he couldn’t get Cameron off the ground.
Concussion should be treated the same as the blood rule by ways of it being out of the players hands. If the doctor is trying to pull you aside, you should have to follow their direction or be fined.
The doctor cannot do their job properly if the player doesn’t allow it.
In this instance, there is no way that Cameron could be assessed to the level required and they are just ticking it off to avoid any criticism.
Conducted the assessment, in accordance with the protocols.
I'll have to look closer, because I seem to be able to find every other sport and every other AFL concussion protocols and forms, but not the AFL competition one which is world leading apparently.
If it's going to be treated the same as the blood rule, an independent Doctor needs to communicate it to the umpires and they can send them off at the very next stoppage & they get an extra 2 interchanges (1 for the test & one to put them back on if allowed). Half the problem is trying to get players off the ground as soon as it has occurred when the game does not stop.
AFL only narrowly avoided a big controversy in this game via that non advantage call.
But something else will happen with this and it will influence the outcome of a game.
Rough tackle in a GF, key player off when it matters etc.
But something else will happen with this and it will influence the outcome of a game.
Rough tackle in a GF, key player off when it matters etc.
No for several reasons.
1. Independent doctors don’t know or treat the players. They don’t know their normal values behaviors history or behavior. They are not as qualified to make the decisions as the club doctors
2. What scope does the independent doctor have?? Are they only there for concussion??? Huge waste of money if that is the case. Simply review things after the game with the AFL head doctor if there is any concern and if the club medicos can justify it then it’s fine.
this is a knee jerk reaction
Purple7x08_24
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Imagine complaining openly about a non advantage call then playing in a preliminary final and gaining the advantage only for it to GOTO an opposition player
The clubs are failing in their duty of care. The consequences will be devastating for the players later in life, and the clubs are also opening themselves up to expensive lawsuits. Take the decision of whether a player is concussed out of the clubs' hands.
Chewy316
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The idea of the brain rattling around in the skull is an old and archaic model regarding concussion that is well past its use by date. The latest understanding of concussion in the medical literature is a shearing effect which creates an "energy crisis" (or energy mismatch) within the cell.
The AFL's concussion policy is fundamentally flawed when one considers that the bare minimum standards outlined in the concussion consensus group guidelines by Patricios (among others) for sports related concussion states that the SCAT6 is the absolute bare minimum test anyone should have for concussion on a sports field. Even then, the SCAT6 has plenty of flaws and using that in isolation could hardly be considered best practice.
This HIA bullshit is nothing more than a rubbish test that does not meet any of the standards in current medical literature - but is all to make it appear the AFL actually cares about its players' health and wellbeing. The reality is that they care only about their financial bottom line and keeping the players on the field as much as possible is integral to that.
Re: Cameron - it will be interesting to see how long it takes for him to return from his concussion. Current research suggests that for every 15 minutes a player continues on the field following a concussion it adds an extra week to their recovery time. I suspect Cameron will be back next weekend but given the current return to play policy protocols are only marking symptoms and not signs, I would not be surprised to see significant reductions in his performance in the next month.
That’s actually what Scott was saying about the rule, he wasn’t saying that the umpires made the wrong call, he said the way it’s implemented is flawed. In other sports the umpire lets the play unfold after the foul/infringement and THEN decides to either allow the advantage to be remain or if it’s not there, to bring it back for the free kick.
The big problem with our system was highlighted perfectly in the Geelong game where the umpire didn’t allow the advantage which actually ended up being a goal, and brought it back for the free kick, which subsequently ended up as a point, so you’re actually disadvantaging the team you’re trying to give the advantage to because the umpire has to guess what is or isn’t going to be an advantage before it happens.
I think it's more a way to articulate to punters that concussion isn't caused by direct impact to the brain.
I don’t think you can say the process is flawed when the free is called by an out of zone umpire as it was in this case I believe?
If an umpire 50m away blows their whistle, then the controlling umpire doesn’t even know what the free is for, what team or where on the ground. They could have blown their whistle for a player being put down 100m off the ball for the opposite team. Allowing advantage when they don’t even know who or what the whistle was blown for yet rightfully shouldn’t be allowed.
What if it’s a free the other way and then the team with the ball just play on and kick the ball 50m into the stands and allows the other team to just flood back?
Just one of those situations that pops up once in a blue moon but otherwise wouldn’t even raise an eye brow.
Can someone explain what is the difference between Allir Allir incident and a $100k fine vs Jeremy Cameron incident? Has the AFL policy changed since then?
From what I gather, Cameron had two knocks throughout the game and both Cameron and Allir had a HIA test. Cameron’s was on field, Allir’s was off field.
Geelong consulted the Arc officials, and they cleared it perhaps Port did not? Was this the rule last year, and has this now just come in?
So because Port didn’t consult the Arc officials they get a $100k fine. But Geelong have been cleared.
So, who are these Arc officials? Are they doctors? And if they are or not - do they have written policy/guidelines that they go by for assessments?
I know it’s the AFL but it’s really not very transparent?
From what I gather, Cameron had two knocks throughout the game and both Cameron and Allir had a HIA test. Cameron’s was on field, Allir’s was off field.
Geelong consulted the Arc officials, and they cleared it perhaps Port did not? Was this the rule last year, and has this now just come in?
So because Port didn’t consult the Arc officials they get a $100k fine. But Geelong have been cleared.
So, who are these Arc officials? Are they doctors? And if they are or not - do they have written policy/guidelines that they go by for assessments?
I know it’s the AFL but it’s really not very transparent?
Purple7x08_24
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Worth mentioning that for anyone who had slammed their head from height like Cameron. It isn't fun. It hurts and rattles you. I've had times where I was completely KOd, and times where I was dazed badly. That footage should have prompted immediate action. In my opinion removed from the game. A hit like that irrespective of immediate testing is dangerous to allow to keep playing. I think a clear head knock like that one should prompt immediate action.
AFL still isn't taking this serious.
Although I rarely agree with you, you have previously done well playing devil's advocate. You are now just a another conspiracy theorist nutter more suited to the Richmond board.
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So why did Port get penalised and Geelong didnt even get a "please explain" ?
Interesting that Libba is now listed as "concussion - indefinite"
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Tredrea1870
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The sweeping under the carpet of the Cameron incident is INSANE!
The independent doctor should can call for them to be taken off and assessed. They can do it with the club doctor as well just for two sets of eyes on it so all your concerns of 1. can be addressed while having someone independent sign off.
The second reason is hilarious with a waste of money being the main concern. Have you see workplace safety these days and what they want business and companies to do with cost not even being on the radar. The AFL has more money than sense and they can easily afford an independent doctor at each of the games. It would cost less than 200K for the whole season and will be a drop in the ocean compared to the payouts coming from not doing enough.
