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Intermittent fasting

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My fasting starts at 8pm and goes through to 1pm. I go to the gym twice a day the first around 5.30/6am and the secomd around 4.30/5pm.

So is a scoop of whey technically a calorie free supplement? Because if im going to do it i want to be 100% strict on zero calories in the fasting period (like pointed out in leangains and fast-5)
 
Unless you are what they would call 'obese', I would recommend you don't fast whilst trying to train twice a day as it really isn't needed. You could eat anything you want all day if you're training twice a day, at least that's what I find when I do a hard cardio session followed by a weights session several hours later.
 
ThePezDispenser said:
Unless you are what they would call 'obese', I would recommend you don't fast whilst trying to train twice a day as it really isn't needed. You could eat anything you want all day if you're training twice a day, at least that's what I find when I do a hard cardio session followed by a weights session several hours later.
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That goes against the whole idea of intermittent fasting in the first place, and plenty of people on forums train twice a day hard whilst doing this. And i am still eating 2 large good quality healthy meals and load up on good carbs prior to my arvo session and protien shake directly after.

The one thing that is clear on everything i have read on the subject is its not a form of diet but a life style change that brings so many advantages like- (taken from http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting/chapter-1 )

Reduced-
Blood lipids (including decreased triglycerides and LDL cholesterol)
Blood pressure (perhaps through changes in sympathetic/parasympathetic activity)
Markers of inflammation (including CRP, IL-6, TNF, BDNF, and more)
Oxidative stress (using markers of protein, lipid, and DNA damage)
Risk of cancer (through a host of proposed mechanisms; we’ll save them for another review)

Increased-
Cellular turnover and repair (called autophagocytosis)
Fat burning (increase in fatty acid oxidation later in the fast)
Growth hormone release later in the fast (hormonally mediated)
Metabolic rate later in the fast (stimulated by epinephrine and norepinephrine release)

Improved-
Appetite control (perhaps through changes in PPY and ghrelin)
Blood sugar control (by lowering blood glucose and increasing insulin sensitivity)
Cardiovascular function (by offering protection against ischemic injury to the heart)
Effectiveness of chemotherapy (by allowing for higher doses more frequently)
Neurogenesis and neuronal plasticity (by offering protection against neurotoxins)
 
training twice a day is pretty hardcore, particularly if you want to stay strict to a IF regime. Nevertheless if you want to stay strictly fasted until 1PM that's fair enough, if you are young the body can take a lot more punishment. I think you may burn out pretty quickly though. You'd want to really eat hard in your feeding window.
Bazzar said:
So is a scoop of whey technically a calorie free supplement?
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No it isn't. A scoop is about 140 calories which is enough to raise your insulin and lower your growth hormone. Technically you won't be fasted. If you want to try and protect your muscles and still stay fasted take 10g of BCCA, that'll keep you in the fasting window. Or just don't eat till 1PM. I don't think it is optimal for body building but you should be burning some pretty decent amount of fat. 40 calories is a bit of a threshold to remain fasted ( pretty sure that's why Leangains chose 10g as the BCAA amount) - that's why it is ok to have a coffee with a dash of low fat milk, no sugar; or a really lo-cal soft drink. It doesn't break the fast.

It depends on your priorities. if your main short term goal is to lose fat aggressively, then have it. Elevated growth hormone will protect your muscles, but I don't think you will be building a lot in the window between your morning workout and when you break your fast at 1PM.
 

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evo said:
If you want to try and protect your muscles and still stay fasted take 10g of BCCA, that'll keep you in the fasting window.
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Thanks for this.

I upload every session onto Movescount, so i will be very keen to see in 4-6-8 weeks any change in % especialy average HR. If my numbers drop then i will know that this isnt working GYM wise and might bring it back to 8/16 and reassess.

Also, im more into hard cardio and general strength than full on strength and muscle building.
 
Yeah, good idea. If you are making strength gains consistently and impoving your cardio that is the main thing in the end.

In regard to BCAA i just got some for the first time recently. Bloody hell it tastes like shit. I'm usually pretty good at choking down foul stuff but that BN gear is horriffic. I wonder if all BCAAs taste like that.

An interesting thing about BCAAs is that they have a lot of leucine in them (50% usually). AFAICT leucine is the amino acid that triggers muscle protein synthesis. From memory 2-2.5g is the minimum threshold to trigger the response. That's good because 10g of BCAA is going to have 5g. If you are fasted, I don't know if that applies though as there is no accompanying insulin to carry it to the muscles.

Alot of this stuff is still pretty speculative it seems. They definitely need to do more IF trials in the labs.
 
Did you just quote one source and base you whole argument around it?

I'm not saying there are no benefits to IF, however if I was training twice a day it would be for reason, like improving strength and conditioning, to achieve optimal results it would be fair to say you should be eating meals throughout the day to ensure you reach your caloric goals and to not 'burn out'...
 
ThePezDispenser said:
Did you just quote one source and base you whole argument around it?

I'm not saying there are no benefits to IF, however if I was training twice a day it would be for reason, like improving strength and conditioning, to achieve optimal results it would be fair to say you should be eating meals throughout the day to ensure you reach your caloric goals and to not 'burn out'...
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Obvious we are on different wavelengths, no big deal. :)
 
ThePezDispenser said:
Did you just quote one source and base you whole argument around it?

I'm not saying there are no benefits to IF, however if I was training twice a day it would be for reason, like improving strength and conditioning, to achieve optimal results it would be fair to say you should be eating meals throughout the day to ensure you reach your caloric goals and to not 'burn out'...
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I agree the whole point of IF is too burn fat during the fast yet provide the macro nutrients and micro nutrients to support muscle synthesis when training

I was told to eat around my workout to provide energy for the session, and food for growth after

If i was working out twice id try and do it like
Fast 8pm - 12 pm
Workout 12-1
Eat at 1
Workout again at 6-7
Eat before 8


But obviously not everyone has time for this
 
yeah, if you don't work then it certainly makes it easier to train when it is optimal. And I agree you want to be eating pretty soon after a workout if possible. It really is the most important time of each day, anabolically speaking. Eating before a workout is not so important. I train fasted most of the time these days.You get used to it.

In Bazzars case it would probably work better if he had his waking part of the fast in the evening. Unfortunately he is only going to be fasting 14 hours a day in this scenario so I would do one or even two 24 hours fasts per week on the rest days.

So he wakes up and trains fasted 5.30/6 am eats 8am - reasonably big meal, high protein. Eats every 3 hours lightish meal, 20 -30 g of protein.

Train again 4.30/5pm. Post workout at 6PM last biggish meal for the day, slowish digesting protein like a steak/chicken breast.

then on rest day don't eat at all for 24 hours.

Anyway, maybe something else to to think about.
 
I couldnt handle 24hours on and off. Im banking on what seems to be the norm that IFers just adapt and dont feel hungry.

Last night was my worst ever spin session, no energy at all, but im only 5 days in. Jan 26 will be a good guide for me, as i will be 20 days in and i have an 8.30am 90 minute express (almost zero recovery) spin session, very tough, and i can compare it with my last one on Movescount. Thats when i will make my first assessment on its suitability.

Trial and error and all good fun.
 
i'm with pez - 2 a days = IF is a diaster waiting to happen

you've still got to fuel those 2 a days you know and if you're feeling shit now then wait til later

you body won't just "come around" it will break down

i do 2 a days 3 days a week and i'll never do if while i'm doing that
 

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cptkirk said:
i'm with pez - 2 a days = IF is a diaster waiting to happen

you've still got to fuel those 2 a days you know and if you're feeling shit now then wait til later

you body won't just "come around" it will break down

i do 2 a days 3 days a week and i'll never do if while i'm doing that
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Gobbledygook to me.
 
Ive been doing this by accident for the last 8 years. I usually just skip breakfast and as a result i have lunch at 12, and dinner before 8. Ive recently stopped snacking and am eating healthier...but it's no different for me.

Im constantly told I should be eating breakfast to boost my metabolism....now im confused as to what the right thing to do is.
 
Just found this thread and it's definitely good reading.

Any ideas on how to eat around footy training and gym if I'm IF?

I'm thinking of having one main meal a day (tea) on gym days and using protein shakes & creatine either side of weights.

On footy training days, I was wondering whether I'd need a few carbs around lunchtime to support a pretty solid running session in the arvo, and then having a good dinner again afterward.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

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I don't get the fascination with IF for those that wish to compete in competitive sports or even try to build muscle in the gym?

It's turning into a craze...:thumbsdown:
 
Most gym go'ers struggle to reach their macros goals with 6 meals throughout the day, let alone trying to squeeze them into 2-3 meals over a 6-8 hour period.
 
I enjoy reading stories on those using it for the right reasons. Those who are jumping on it like a Today Tonight story is obviously different.
 
ThePezDispenser said:
I enjoy reading stories on those using it for the right reasons. Those who are jumping on it like a Today Tonight story is obviously different.
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I've used it for a drastic cut whilst bodybuilding, Im not gaining size, alot anyway, a little, biceps are up to 15.5 cold flexed from around 13, but for a cut I've found it very useful, i won't put my name behind it for a bulking phase but as a cutting technique, its unparalleled
 
Santoz said:
I'm thinking of having one main meal a day (tea) on gym days and using protein shakes & creatine either side of weights.
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One or two days a week that would be ok, but you can't eat just one meal every day. An average active 5ft10 guy needs about 2700 calories/ day. Can you eat all that in one meal?

On footy training days, I was wondering whether I'd need a few carbs around lunchtime to support a pretty solid running session in the arvo, and then having a good dinner again afterward.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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you haven't given a lot of information so I don't really know your height, weight, current calorie intake or goals.

No matter what diet you are on, you wanna be eating close to your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) on most days. Otherwise you won't put on any any muscle and in fact will start to ruin your metabolism and eventually burn out. It's not a starvation diet. In fact it is not even a diet. It is an eat-timing regime. For example I'm currently doing IF but eating about 3000 calories/day (slightly over TDEE)
 

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