Israel: the struggle for control of the country's soul

[The Warlord]

Israel going back to the polls after the last election couldn't produce a workable governing coalition.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/mid...lection-after-talks-fail-20190530-p51sm7.html

The key issue is whether the Orthodox should be made to serve in the Israel Defence Force.

This will define Israel's future - and whether it has one.

Is Israel a democratic Western country of nightclubs and biotech, California on the Med?

Or is Israel a theocratic state with democratic elements, but one where unaccountable religious authorities hold ultimate sway - a Jewish Iran west of the Jordan?

With the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox birthrate massively outstripping the secular, the demographics are pointing one way.

Fundamentally - why should a smart secular kid do their IDF service to protect Orthodox settlers who spit at the soldier's girlfriend on the bus for wearing a top that shows her shoulders?

Why wouldn't he or she just go to America, or Europe, or Australia, and made a mint?

 

[Mofra]

There was an interesting article I read elsewhere about the issue of the Hasidic/Haredi's breeding themselves into the dominant force in the Knesset as they are effectively a massive drain on the nations' resources.

Can anyone honestly tell me that the Shia, with supply chains stretching now from the border or Israel to Tehran, are seriously going to be stopped by a population of 30% of these guys armed with Torahs and a sense of moral indignation?

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Do the coats match the weather?

 

[Gough]

They want the land they're just not prepared to do the heavy lifting. Absolutely contemptible cowards.

 

[AM]

The choice open to the Israelis, and the relatively few Palestinians allowed to vote, is really not very appetising.

Lieberman.

HAARETZ

And Bibi, who is attempting to walk roughshod over the Rule of Law in order to save his own dubious skin. Not that ignoring the law is a new phenomenon to the leadership.

HAARETZ

It's not only very orthodox groups arcing up at the prospect of having to undertake military service, it's the corruption at the top too.

 

[Mofra]

It's not only very orthodox groups arcing up at the prospect of having to undertake military service, it's the corruption at the top too.

Maybe they should just claim they have bone spurs or something.

 

[strauchnyy]

The religious nutters are an absolute drain on the country. No wonder they are despised by the wider secular society in Israel.

They live off the taxes and then need protecting. Bah.

 

[Frank Bunn]

There was an interesting article I read elsewhere about the issue of the Hasidic/Haredi's breeding themselves into the dominant force in the Knesset as they are effectively a massive drain on the nations' resources.

Can anyone honestly tell me that the Shia, with supply chains stretching now from the border or Israel to Tehran, are seriously going to be stopped by a population of 30% of these guys armed with Torahs and a sense of moral indignation?

View attachment 683082

This is what happens when you allow those who get state benefits to dictate policy. They will keep voting themselves more money and power.

Only people who are net tax payers should be allowed to vote.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

This is what happens when you allow those who get state benefits to dictate policy. They will keep voting themselves more money and power.

Only people who are net tax payers should be allowed to vote.

All s**t aside , I don’t hate the idea of having voting rights “earned”, but I’m yet to find a model I can support.

Your one exclude unfairly many who are either retired or physically disabled. Also measuring net tax would be tough because you need to factor in gst.

Intellect doesn’t equal wisdom. Money tends to corrupt. Military service opens a Pandora’s box of its own

 

[Frank Bunn]

All **** aside , I don’t hate the idea of having voting rights “earned”, but I’m yet to find a model I can support.

Your one exclude unfairly many who are either retired or physically disabled. Also measuring net tax would be tough because you need to factor in gst.

Intellect doesn’t equal wisdom. Money tends to corrupt. Military service opens a Pandora’s box of its own

I guess it's a side issue for many countries, and unlikely to find popular support because no party will purposelessly disenfranchise their own potential voters.

It's a bigger issue in Israeli politics because the Haredis are Israel’s fastest-growing group. But they are also the country’s poorest population, with 45 percent living below the poverty line in their insular communities. Unlike in other countries, where the poor tend to vote for left-wing parties that promote social welfare agendas, Israeli Haredis are overwhelmingly right-wing. They have a disproportionate number of recipients of welfare and taxpayer funding for their institutions but who don’t contribute through the workforce or serve in the military.

 

[The Warlord]

There was an interesting article I read elsewhere about the issue of the Hasidic/Haredi's breeding themselves into the dominant force in the Knesset as they are effectively a massive drain on the nations' resources.

Can anyone honestly tell me that the Shia, with supply chains stretching now from the border or Israel to Tehran, are seriously going to be stopped by a population of 30% of these guys armed with Torahs and a sense of moral indignation?

View attachment 683082

Luckily they are armed also with their own and America's stand off nuclear deterrent.

Oh, and do you reckon THOSE religious nutcases would have any issue dropping a nuke on Tehran?

 

[The Warlord]

The religious nutters are an absolute drain on the country. No wonder they are despised by the wider secular society in Israel.

They live off the taxes and then need protecting. Bah.

Problem is that soon they will be wider Isreali society.

 

[The Warlord]

I guess it's a side issue for many countries, and unlikely to find popular support because no party will purposelessly disenfranchise their own potential voters.

It's a bigger issue in Israeli politics because the Haredis are Israel’s fastest-growing group. But they are also the country’s poorest population, with 45 percent living below the poverty line in their insular communities. Unlike in other countries, where the poor tend to vote for left-wing parties that promote social welfare agendas, Israeli Haredis are overwhelmingly right-wing. They have a disproportionate number of recipients of welfare and taxpayer funding for their institutions but who don’t contribute through the workforce or serve in the military.

Yeah, having a "social welfare agenda" isn't a left or right thing really, its only been painted that way in the West since 1979 (Thatcher).

As you point out, the right are more than capable of doing it, and many business models of ostensibly big successful companies are built on government largesse.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Yeah, having a "social welfare agenda" isn't a left or right thing really, its only been painted that way in the West since 1979 (Thatcher).

As you point out, the right are more than capable of doing it, and many business models of ostensibly big successful companies are built on government largesse.

You could argue the continued existence of the state of Israel depends on US government largesse.

 

[The Warlord]

You could argue the continued existence of the state of Israel depends on US government largesse.

Pretty much.

 

[AM]

Wow!

'In Smotrich's Land of Israel I won't stay a minute'

Shabtai Shavit: Netanyahu voters are people without knowledge, without understanding - people whose normative threshold is grass-high.

www.israelnationalnews.com

 

[The Warlord]

Yes, the current right-wing rah rah Israel brigade overlooks the fact that it was founded as a basically socialist state.

 

[Run n Spread]

Fundamentally - why should a smart secular kid do their IDF service to protect Orthodox settlers who spit at the soldier's girlfriend on the bus for wearing a top that shows her shoulders?

Why wouldn't he or she just go to America, or Europe, or Australia, and made a mint?

Interesting thread. ****ed if I know. But they aren't the US, Europe or Australia they are a small state surrounded by aggressive neighbours who would wipe them off the face of the earth (and in a previous context have done before) so they are rightly paranoid.

But by the same token they are not all together innocent themselves and are capable of running very sophisticated and dark operations as well. Including some very high profile events.

As to a young IDF conscript? Do you agree with the values and take the courage and good with the bad (and downright evil) or just say I'm ******* outta here and setting my own life up?

Couldn't begrudge them either way.

 

[kranky al]

I dont see it really as that much different to the american elites who dodge the wars they insist on having - except in america its the wealthy - in israel its a religious sect

Either way - someone else does the heavy lifting

 

[its free real estate]

With the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox birthrate massively outstripping the secular, the demographics are pointing one way.

Always good to read arguments about demographic trends in reactionary religious communities outstripping secular families thereby undermining the future of a liberal state.

Now do Europe.

 

[blackcat]

Yes, the current right-wing rah rah Israel brigade overlooks the fact that it was founded as a basically socialist state.

hmmm, without the monied contributors from the diaspora and UK/American zionist supporters, no state. We can all go to kibbutzim and indulge in a founding mythos, but would it be mere floundering? They needed the capital to build the great state, the socialism mythos is merely rhetoric.