List Mgmt. List management thread.

[blaze036]

Varcoe is faster than Adams, Swan, Pendlebury, Beams, Ball, Sidebottom.

He showed against Adelaide he was always willing to run

yeah but you suggested we trade shaw for him... so we actually lose pace... and fitness.. which are the two things you wanted from the trade... seriously this is like talking to a brick wall

 

[mike123]

yeah but you suggested we trade shaw for him... so we actually lose pace... and fitness.. which are the two things you wanted from the trade... seriously this is like talking to a brick wall

We lost Shaw anyways. I don't think Shaw is fitter than Varcoe.

 

[piedpiper32]

Varcoe is faster than Adams, Swan, Pendlebury, Beams, Ball, Sidebottom.

He showed against Adelaide he was always willing to run

Difference is those guys you mention are actually good.
Come on Mike, I know you get a bit overenthusiastic, but surely your criteria consists of more than just pace. If that was it why don't we go and get Joel Wilkinson! Don't say yes please...

 

[mike123]

Difference is those guys you mention are actually good.
Come on Mike, I know you get a bit overenthusiastic, but surely your criteria consists of more than just pace. If that was it why don't we go and get Joel Wilkinson! Don't say yes please...

Wilkinson couldn't hit a target if his life depended on it. Fitness and two way running was other other thing on my criteria and through the preseason and against Adelaide he showed he can run. I also like pressure.

 

[piedpiper32]

Wilkinson couldn't hit a target if his life depended on it. Fitness and two way running was other other thing on my criteria and through the preseason and against Adelaide he showed he can run. I also like pressure.

Yes I recall vividly - Tony Armstrong with his "tackling pressure". Interesting it didn't say he was a good tackler, only that he provided "pressure". I guess that means the threat of being one of his 1.8 victims a game is enough to strike fear into the opposition. Of course the chances of actually being tackled by him are slim to none

 

[mike123]

Yes I recall vividly - Tony Armstrong with his "tackling pressure". Interesting it didn't say he was a good tackler, only that he provided "pressure". I guess that means the threat of being one of his 1.8 victims a game is enough to strike fear into the opposition. Of course the chances of actually being tackled by him are slim to none

Varcoe Averaged 4.2 tackles in 2013 and got 6 against Adelaide.

 

[MeisterBot]

Varcoe is a good player at his best, but possibly due to his numerous injuries, he still struggles to run out games after 7 odd years in the system.

In either case, we lack runners off half back, and Varcoe is a half forward. I can see why you'd want him in the team, and it's better than "Jack Martin will have a lack of opportunity at Gold Coast so we should try get him" but post-2014 in this hypothetical, we'd have Broomhead and Freeman ready to burst onto the scene.

 

[mike123]

Varcoe is a good player at his best, but possibly due to his numerous injuries, he still struggles to run out games after 7 odd years in the system.

In either case, we lack runners off half back, and Varcoe is a half forward. I can see why you'd want him in the team, and it's better than "Jack Martin will have a lack of opportunity at Gold Coast so we should try get him" but post-2014 in this hypothetical, we'd have Broomhead and Freeman ready to burst onto the scene.

Might and it was a joke.

 

[Quicky]

We should have trade Heath Shaw for Travis Varcoe. JT and Fas could step it up in the midfield in stead of Adams. We could have used a Fast two way running player like Varcoe.

Discussion merged out of the unpopular opinions thread.

 

[Shaneprice97]

I hope Carlton delist Dylan Buckley for some odd reason, so we have the chance of picking him up as a delisted free agent. Loving the way he has gone about it tonight.

 

[TradeDraft]

I hope Carlton delist Dylan Buckley for some odd reason, so we have the chance of picking him up as a delisted free agent. Loving the way he has gone about it tonight.

That is the Only Way I would get him. Would not give up anything for him though

 

[SApies]

That is the Only Way I would get him. Would not give up anything for him though

Clarke for Dylan Buckley? Done!

 

[Knightmare]

I hope Carlton delist Dylan Buckley for some odd reason, so we have the chance of picking him up as a delisted free agent. Loving the way he has gone about it tonight.

Dylan Buckley may be Carlton's best young player drafted these past 3-4 seasons.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Dylan Buckley may be Carlton's best young player drafted these past 3-4 seasons.

Second to Troy Menzel for mine(way way to early to say obviously), but his game tonight is better than any individual game Menzel has played. Not sure if that made sense, but Buckley was a real gun tonight.

 

[Knightmare]

Second to Troy Menzel for mine(way way to early to say obviously), but his game tonight is better than any individual game Menzel has played. Not sure if that made sense, but Buckley was a real gun tonight.

I know what you're saying.

Menzel was a high draft selection and is a damaging footballer who will surely improve.

Take note, my comment wasn't saying Buckley certainly is the best young Carlton player but he may well be. He certainly looked it tonight and has that scope to be a long term piece which can't be said for all that many other young Blues.

Buckley's form and improvement to this point suggest he's not at risk of being delisted any time soon. Most teams I'd imagine would love to have him if he keeps doing what he's doing.

 

[MagpieBat]

I hope Carlton delist Dylan Buckley for some odd reason, so we have the chance of picking him up as a delisted free agent. Loving the way he has gone about it tonight.

Kid's name is Buckley, so Mick might make a connection that isn't there and turf him...

 

[Breakthelines]

Can we trade Nathan Buckley for Dylan Buckley?

 

[Vicky Park]

I agree with your view about our list management strategy. We've gone overboard every year since our 2010 premiership with our list turnover. It doesn't build list chemistry and is why we're in no man's land when after 2010 you would have had us pencilled in for top 4 every year and probably another 1-2 premierships given the young age of that core group.
It's something we really should but are yet to learn from Geelong. They rarely delist players and their list changes these past 4 seasons have in the most part been through retirements with the remainder of the list retained. They've done it by getting guys almost exclusively in the top 50 in each draft and just trusted the guys they've picked. No saying we need to go this extreme in this directly but we certainly do need a few seasons with this type of reduced list turnover.

On bringing in new guys from opposition clubs. 1-2 a year is plenty. Finding one guy who can fill is need is essentially what you should set out to do every year and you shouldn't need more than one. Our system for the most part is to use trade week/free agency for list balance and bringing in 2-4 guys each season through this avenue to do that which I'd also agree is too much. Guys need that continuity playing together and developing chemistry and knowing eachothers habits. You don't win with 10 new guys every year and so many from rival clubs. It needs to be a search for quality rather than quantity.

I have watched plenty of Grimley in the VFL for Box Hill. He's a second ruck type option who can present and be a marking target up forward while going well enough in the ruck. He's a Trent West/Jon Giles/David Hale equivalent for those less familiar with his game, but with Hale 30 this year I see him being retained as groomed as the sidekick to McEvoy as someone who fits their positionally versatile model. If he falls out of favour then certain an option and possibly a pretty good option for a club looking for that type.

Sexton I actually really like off a back flank but he does have the versatility to play well through the midfield or up forward. He's tallish and has the requisite pace and skill and as a Queenslander I expect has plenty of development to come. Just hard to see Gold Coast giving him up, he was projected a late 1st rounder in his draft year if not for the zone selection and even if he's not a part of their best team they'll look to retain him for another year I'd expect. But really like him and agree he's someone to target if available.

Ross/Stevenson I like.

Another worth consideration is George Horlin-Smith if he goes out of favour at Geelong. Through the midfield one of the better young players coming through not getting a game at the moment. Just may not come at as much of a bargain basement price as his talent and production is on a higher level than the others suggested. Can develop into a mid size, strong bodied mid. Nice skills, inside ball winning ability and just has that right mix of attributes to develop into a very good mid.

Ryan Lester I'm also watching with interest as a tall, versatile mid to see how his develop comes along.

Buntine I'm not all that confident in. But another year will tell us more.

Collingwood as a club, you can really tell with the guys we are drafting that we're using our own "Moneyball" system and utilise it better than probably any. The recruitment of Tom Langdon last year out of the TAC Cup for anyone aware of his numbers, it's obvious how we noticed in conjunction with an understanding of his numbers what he could do along with the recruitment of Elliott the other year among others. The club really understand the numbers probably better than any other club and are going for those guys who have the numbers behind them as evidence that they can play.
It's just not as great for finding those damaging, outside types with the numbers for these types don't always convert as directly as those more contested ball winners and higher production types and that's why we mostly lack that outside talent.
Gold Coast are an example of a club who find these weapon types at will with all their speedy and high skill types it's incredibly impressive. They've done it more with late draft picks and I'd agree that's the best way to find these as opposed to early draft where there are too many misses with damaging, low production guys with much the same often still available mid-late draft. It will be interesting to see mid-late draft if we take a chance on one of these types of talents there and then this year.

KM, you refer to 'list chemistry'. I must say I have been surprised at the numbers we have turned over in recent years, going back to MM, and not just Bucks. And then there are the numbers we have debuted recently, particularly under Bucks. People forget that in 2010 we debuted one player - Blair - a dramatic contrast to recent times. Genuine flag contenders have a strong core of 50 plus game players, with experience and knowledge of how their team mates play. We are currently a while off that.

 

[mike123]

I think Carlton will retain Dylan Bucklet

 

[Knightmare]

KM, you refer to 'list chemistry'. I must say I have been surprised at the numbers we have turned over in recent years, going back to MM, and not just Bucks. And then there are the numbers we have debuted recently, particularly under Bucks. People forget that in 2010 we debuted one player - Blair - a dramatic contrast to recent times. Genuine flag contenders have a strong core of 50 plus game players, with experience and knowledge of how their team mates play. We are currently a while off that.

I am very strong on team chemistry and team familiarity are very important to winning. I've seen it in enough sports and in with so many clubs in the AFL. I also feel that list turnover of 1000 games a year by Melbourne has been a big reason why they haven't been able to make that jump.

On an AFL level I'd also like to add particularly in the back half that chemistry and familiarity is particularly important to winning and it's worrying how little experience and games played together there is in that back half. It will take a good three years even with good health and fortune fr that group to build that necessarily chemistry and get that necessary experience to become a not only functional but strong group.

You only have to look at my projected back half to get a feel for how young our back half looks and how we really need to pump games into that group quickly if they are indeed to be our core back half going forward.

The list management every year since that first grand final win has been too heavy. The list and many players on the list have felt unsettled and the vibe out of the club isn't nearly as positive as it was in that premiership year and we seem to have gradually gone downhill in part as a result of this.

I feel as well as strong drafting, player leadership, strong coaching and player development this has been a big and not spoken enough about reason why Geelong have been so successful for so long. Sure they draft well but they're not turning over their list beyond the usual 3-5 senior list changes which on the most part are retirements. This has created an incredible list chemistry where you just know what to expect every year and despite some stars retiring each year very little drop off.

Now Collingwood have got the depth so strong we've got a great opportunity to follow this model and really minimise the list turnover so that we can make a run at another flag once that back half (Scharenberg/Langdon/Seedsman/Williams) have more games in them.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Ben Griffiths or Scott Lycett anyone?
Griffiths in particular, looks likely to lose is spot in Richmonds lineup once Maric recovers and may want a spot on a list where he would be best 22. Has the ability to play key forward, key backman and as a ruckman. May be very unlucky to lose his spot as he is a good player, just unlucky circumstances with Hampson playing very well as number 1 ruck, Maric coming back from injury who is a very good ruck and Vickery, who has suddenly became there number 1 option up forward.
West Coast are currently playing 3 ruckman in one side and Lycett still doesnt get a spot, seems his only way into the side is if one of Cox, NicNat and Sinclair gets injured or when Cox retires which could be awhile away. He may want the opportunity we could give to him.

 

[Knightmare]

Cox won't be around forever. I see Lycett staying. He's still young. I'm not convinced he's a need either as another ruckman in the Grundy/Witts age bracket.

Griffiths even with a healthy squad if he continues playing the way he has may even remain best 22 and pass one of the better knowns by. You're right to mention Griffiths because he's looking very good to this point in the season and if he keeps it up Richmond won't want to let him.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Lachie Plowman has got the job on Nick Riewoldt, so we can get some sort of idea if he would be good for a kpp backman or 3rd tall.

 

[TradeDraft]

I reckon it would not be bad to Recurit Matthew Kruzer. Be there Perfect 2nd Ruck who can Play Forward alongside Grundy

 

[MeisterBot]

I reckon it would not be bad to Recurit Matthew Kruzer. Be there Perfect 2nd Ruck who can Play Forward alongside Grundy

Kreuzer wouldn't be a great forward. Worse leading patterns than Witts, runs under the ball almost every time, not a contested marking threat. He is a 1st ruck or he is nothing.

That's nothing to say about his injury history, or the fact that Carlton would make us pay at least a 1st rounder.