Making a Murderer

[Old Spice]

I don't see how carbon dating will prove anything... I mean can it really prove when blood was spilt to the hour or to the day or even to the week? I doubt it. I think now it doesn't really matter for him whether he did it or not, I mean the courts and legal system and police are not going to set him free for being wrongly convicted TWICE, with all the worldwide media attention, they would not smear themselves like that. That's why you do not do even a little crime, you stay well away from that side of life...

Are you saying because of minor criminal convictions he should be incarcerated for half his life - the best half? That is outrageous.

 

[Old Spice]

Sorry for the intrusion but I found this thread with a search, as I'm watching this series at the moment and wanted to share my thoughts.

The evidence really is against Steve Avery in my conclusion so far.

Consider his history:
* cruelty to animals and the links in research between kids who do this kind of thing being more likely to be criminals as adults
* driving his cousin off the road and threatening her with a gun in his early 20s
* threatening to kill his first wife in letters from prison

Evidence in the Halbach murder:
* her last known location was his salvage yard
* her remains found in the fire pit and his admission they had a bonfire the night she went missing
* her vehicle hidden in his yard
* the number plates removed and discarded in an abandoned car on a road near/behind his cabin
* his DNA found in the blood inside her vehicle (allegedly planted). Tests show no trace of a preservative used in the storage of blood vials for criminal purposes, indicating it was probably new blood
* his DNA found on the latch under the hood of her car (type not known, e.g. Sweat or blood)
* she had been shot in the head and a bullet with her DNA was found in his garage
* the bullet was fired from his gun, hanging in his home (or garage - can't remember which)
* her car key with his blood found in his cabin. This particular piece of evidence seems the one most likely to have been planted or at least tampered with
* his 16 yr old cousin as his only alibi that day

I think the evidence suggests Avery probably did kill Halbach, but that the Manitowoc police interfered when they suspiciously found her key in his cabin after many previous searches by the other investigators turned up nothing. It's very possible they augmented the evidence to secure a conviction.

In regards to the 'confession' of Avery's cousin, again it's very interesting. No doubt he was coerced into telling them what they wanted to hear. It seems like he was a participant in at least disposing of the body, but his knowledge of how she died in truth wasn't there. He seemed to have terrible cognitive aptitude, so you can't really make too much of it either way.

What I'm struggling with is that Steve Avery presents as so convincingly innocent. He doesn't show any give-always of someone lying at all and the timing of her death is incredibly coincidental with the looming milestone of his civil suit against the County.

Apparently Avery's defense team have now requested carbon dating on the blood in Halbach's vehicle. It should prove that the evidence was planted (or not).

What do you guys reckon?

You must be a few episodes in. Come back and visit us at the end.

 

[sirlothie]

Are you saying because of minor criminal convictions he should be incarcerated for half his life - the best half? That is outrageous.

No I not saying that but I am saying don't dance with the devil and expect not to get burnt. He obviously has gotten an extremely raw deal but if you put yourself in the crosshairs you put your fate in the hands of others... he is just of a low IQ and has not done himself any favours and the system will not do you many favours either, if I was him I probably would not have tried to sue them, I would have just have been happy to have been out and would go live under a rock for the rest of my days...

 

[sirlothie]

Two thirds of people who go to jail end up going back there...

 

[Old Spice]

No I not saying that but I am saying don't dance with the devil and expect not to get burnt. He obviously has gotten an extremely raw deal but if you put yourself in the crosshairs you put your fate in the hands of others... he is just of a low IQ and has not done himself any favours and the system will not do you many favours either, if I was him I probably would not have tried to sue them, I would have just have been happy to have been out and would go live under a rock for the rest of my days...

I wouldn't be happy one f*cking bit to have had the flower of my youth stolen away by some cops hell bent on sending me to the slammer while they let the real rapist and murderer get away! That is unbelievable, knowing you are letting a real murderer and rapist get away so you can exact some petty revenge on a guy you hate!

That's where the focus needs to go, on the sheriff's dept who not only stole a man's life but allowed the guilty party to go free and re-offend again!

Regardless of whether he sued or not - and he certainly should have to get some compensation for himself and to dissuade the cops from doing similarly again - your socio-economic circumstances should not count against you.

I know you're a Christian man Sirlothie, so I suggest you go and watch Les Miserables. The protagonist, Jean Valjean, is convicted for stealing a loaf of bread then hounded by a cop who won't allow him the prospect of living a free life. In the end the nobler man is Valjean.

 

[sirlothie]

I wouldn't be happy one f*cking bit to have had the flower of my youth stolen away by some cops hell bent on sending me to the slammer while they let the real rapist and murderer get away! That is unbelievable, knowing you are letting a real murderer and rapist get away so you can exact some petty revenge on a guy you hate!

That's where the focus needs to go, on the sheriff's dept who not only stole a man's life but allowed the guilty party to go free and re-offend again!

Regardless of whether he sued or not - and he certainly should have to get some compensation for himself and to dissuade the cops from doing similarly again - your socio-economic circumstances should not count against you.

I know you're a Christian man Sirlothie, so I suggest you go and watch Les Miserables. The protagonist, Jean Valjean, is convicted for stealing a loaf of bread then hounded by a cop who won't allow him the prospect of living a free life. In the end the nobler man is Valjean.

I'm not a Christian... I just believe in God.

What I am saying is the guy was locked up and admitted to setting a cat on fire and watching it die and also holding up his ex's car at gunpoint. It's not much of a stretch for a jury to say ok he is capable of further crimes. He is not a cleanskin. Where there is smoke, there's fire.

 

[Old Spice]

I'm not a Christian... I just believe in God.

What I am saying is the guy was locked up and admitted to setting a cat on fire and watching it die and also holding up his ex's car at gunpoint. It's not much of a stretch for a jury to say ok he is capable of further crimes. He is not a cleanskin. Where there is smoke, there's fire.

That's ridiculous. If you didn't swipe your Myki or spray painted a train, am I justified in convicting you for the great train robbery?

 

[sirlothie]

That's ridiculous. If you didn't swipe your Myki or spray painted a train, am I justified in convicting you for the great train robbery?

That's a little bit different. Setting an animal on fire is a pretty big red flag for mine.

 

[Old Spice]

That's a little bit different. Setting an animal on fire is a pretty big red flag for mine.

I haven't seen the show for a while so I can't recall if that charge was ever vindicated or whether it was just more slander, but imagining that it were true, how on earth does that justify sending a person to jail for a crime which was proven by DNA evidence and accepted by the state to be be a complete falsehood and turned out to be committed by another convicted felon with a serious criminal history of rape.

A man spent 18 years of his life, after having young children, in a prison! That is not in dispute by anyone and yet you seem to think this is not an egregious miscarriage of justice because he is accused of or did kill an animal in a prank.

I mean, this is so fundamentally f*cked I don't know how you could possibly defend it, especially in light of the fact that the real killer had been within their grasp and indeed recommended by the city sheriffs dept as a hot lead. The mind boggles.

 

[sirlothie]

I haven't seen the show for a while so I can't recall if that charge was ever vindicated or whether it was just more slander, but imagining that it were true, how on earth does that justify sending a person to jail for a crime which was proven by DNA evidence and accepted by the state to be be a complete falsehood and turned out to be committed by another convicted felon with a serious criminal history of rape.

A man spent 18 years of his life, after having young children, in a prison! That is not in dispute by anyone and yet you seem to think this is not an egregious miscarriage of justice because he is accused of or did kill an animal in a prank.

I mean, this is so fundamentally f*cked I don't know how you could possibly defend it, especially in light of the fact that the real killer had been within their grasp and indeed recommended by the city sheriffs dept as a hot lead. The mind boggles.

You have watched a documentary that is heavily biased towards Avery. Are you suggesting that their police department and legal system is corrupt and it is all one giant set up with everyone involved just to lock up a hillbilly despite the world's attention being focused on them to save a couple hundred grand or whatever? I think they would pay that money to have everyone stop looking at them....

 

[sirlothie]

I haven't seen the show for a while so I can't recall if that charge was ever vindicated or whether it was just more slander, but imagining that it were true, how on earth does that justify sending a person to jail for a crime which was proven by DNA evidence and accepted by the state to be be a complete falsehood and turned out to be committed by another convicted felon with a serious criminal history of rape.

A man spent 18 years of his life, after having young children, in a prison! That is not in dispute by anyone and yet you seem to think this is not an egregious miscarriage of justice because he is accused of or did kill an animal in a prank.

I mean, this is so fundamentally f*cked I don't know how you could possibly defend it, especially in light of the fact that the real killer had been within their grasp and indeed recommended by the city sheriffs dept as a hot lead. The mind boggles.

Avery copped his first two jail terms sweet and admitted it according to his wikipedia page. He was done for burglary too.

 

[doodles98]

That's a little bit different. Setting an animal on fire is a pretty big red flag for mine.

Interesting concept. Preemptive punishment. Nearly all serial killers start off torturing animals like this before they graduate to humans. If you lock up animal torturers for life (which I personally think is a waste of resource and a bullet to the back of the neck is what's required) then you will watch.. there will be hardly any serial killers. I think it's a big win-win... animals stop getting tortured and we nip the serial killers in the bud. Has a lot of merit. Will never happen.

edit: where you been man? Main board misses you. Hows the gardening business?

 

[Summer Nights]

I don't see how carbon dating will prove anything... I mean can it really prove when blood was spilt to the hour or to the day or even to the week? I doubt it. I think now it doesn't really matter for him whether he did it or not, I mean the courts and legal system and police are not going to set him free for being wrongly convicted TWICE, with all the worldwide media attention, they would not smear themselves like that. That's why you do not do even a little crime, you stay well away from that side of life...

Carbon dating will conclusively prove one way or the other the theory that Avery's blood was planted in Halbach's vehicle using blood from his 1985 false conviction vial. If it is 31 year-old blood then that evidence, which was crucial to the murder trial, would allow a re-trial and probably result in him going free.

You must be a few episodes in. Come back and visit us at the end.

Finished it last night. I can see now how some of the evidence is very questionable. The most dubious pieces are the vehicle key and the bullet, both found after many multiple and thorough previous searches. I think the key was found in plain sight on the floor of Avery's cabin after the fifth or seventh entry! The bullet was found under some equipment in the garage 4 months after the initial searches. Dodgy AF.

The behaviour of the Manitowoc police was deplorable.

The most likely theory IMO is that Avery did kill her, potentially by following her off site down the road and stopping/attacking her, probably by gunshot, leaving a bullet in her head.

He placed the body in the back of her vehicle and then drove it to his yard, hiding the vehicle but leaving the key (perhaps to move it later), putting her body in a burn barrel and incinerating it. He then emptied the barrel into his burn pit after speaking to his girlfriend/fiancé on the phone about 5pm. Alternatively, he emptied the barrel after the call.

Later, he invited his nephew Brendan Dassey to the bonfire where they went around collecting items for fuel. Avery told him about Teresa and Brendan saw her body or parts of it in the fire, such as the toes.

The cop, Colbourn, was suspicious and found the vehicle a few days later while snooping, called in to check the vehicle against the number plate, knew he had his chance, then took the key so the vehicle couldn't be moved. He removed the plates and threw them into a car on another edge of the property.

He then informed Lenk, who helped orchestrate the vehicle being found by the search party, but not before planting blood from Avery's previous trial in the vehicle in order to secure a conviction. The pin prick in the purple seal is telling.

I mean, they (the cops) were sure he did it. They didn't mean to incorrectly frame him... they just wanted to make sure he didn't get away with it. No doubt if/when the blood was planted, they didn't know about the body in the burn pit.

The key was then cleaned, Avery's blood added and either Lenk or Colbourn (or both) planted it to strengthen the evidence. We can be fairly sure it was tampered with because no other DNA was found on it at all.

Likewise with the bullet - probably recovered from the burn pit initially and then planted in Avery's garage the next March upon the search warrant being issued.

The most chilling idea is that beneath this incredibly & consistently believable man in Steven Avery is a stone cold killer. If he is guilty then he's the best liar I've ever seen. That's a scary thought. But we do know these types of people can be born.

We can't really be sure exactly what did happen. There's definitely a possibility he was framed and that's equally scary.

 

[Old Spice]

Carbon dating will conclusively prove one way or the other the theory that Avery's blood was planted in Halbach's vehicle using blood from his 1985 false conviction vial. If it is 31 year-old blood then that evidence, which was crucial to the murder trial, would allow a re-trial and probably result in him going free.



Finished it last night. I can see now how some of the evidence is very questionable. The most dubious pieces are the vehicle key and the bullet, both found after many multiple and thorough previous searches. I think the key was found in plain sight on the floor of Avery's cabin after the fifth or seventh entry! The bullet was found under some equipment in the garage 4 months after the initial searches. Dodgy AF.

The behaviour of the Manitowoc police was deplorable.

The most likely theory IMO is that Avery did kill her, potentially by following her off site down the road and stopping/attacking her, probably by gunshot, leaving a bullet in her head.

He placed the body in the back of her vehicle and then drove it to his yard, hiding the vehicle but leaving the key (perhaps to move it later), putting her body in a burn barrel and incinerating it. He then emptied the barrel into his burn pit after speaking to his girlfriend/fiancé on the phone about 5pm. Alternatively, he emptied the barrel after the call.

Later, he invited his nephew Brendan Dassey to the bonfire where they went around collecting items for fuel. Avery told him about Teresa and Brendan saw her body or parts of it in the fire, such as the toes.

The cop, Colbourn, was suspicious and found the vehicle a few days later while snooping, called in to check the vehicle against the number plate, knew he had his chance, then took the key so the vehicle couldn't be moved. He removed the plates and threw them into a car on another edge of the property.

He then informed Lenk, who helped orchestrate the vehicle being found by the search party, but not before planting blood from Avery's previous trial in the vehicle in order to secure a conviction. The pin prick in the purple seal is telling.

I mean, they (the cops) were sure he did it. They didn't mean to incorrectly frame him... they just wanted to make sure he didn't get away with it. No doubt if/when the blood was planted, they didn't know about the body in the burn pit.

The key was then cleaned, Avery's blood added and either Lenk or Colbourn (or both) planted it to strengthen the evidence. We can be fairly sure it was tampered with because no other DNA was found on it at all.

Likewise with the bullet - probably recovered from the burn pit initially and then planted in Avery's garage the next March upon the search warrant being issued.

The most chilling idea is that beneath this incredibly & consistently believable man in Steven Avery is a stone cold killer. If he is guilty then he's the best liar I've ever seen. That's a scary thought. But we do know these types of people can be born.

We can't really be sure exactly what did happen. There's definitely a possibility he was framed and that's equally scary.

I don't about that (Avery killing her). Seems quite unreal when he's on the eve of a massive settlement. He invites a photographer to his property and kills her? It seems more likely that another killer (who's name escapes me) who wanted to set Avery up killed her then planted the body there.

 

[sirlothie]

Interesting concept. Preemptive punishment. Nearly all serial killers start off torturing animals like this before they graduate to humans. If you lock up animal torturers for life (which I personally think is a waste of resource and a bullet to the back of the neck is what's required) then you will watch.. there will be hardly any serial killers. I think it's a big win-win... animals stop getting tortured and we nip the serial killers in the bud. Has a lot of merit. Will never happen.

edit: where you been man? Main board misses you. Hows the gardening business?

I have been flat out mate. I am getting some of my own work, but doing a lot of work for 4 other gardening blokes... plus I was delivering pizzas 6 nights a week to try to get way in front but that proved unprofitable due to car maintainance and repairs... so yeah just making hay while the sun shines in spring!

 

[doodles98]

I have been flat out mate. I am getting some of my own work, but doing a lot of work for 4 other gardening blokes... plus I was delivering pizzas 6 nights a week to try to get way in front but that proved unprofitable due to car maintainance and repairs... so yeah just making hay while the sun shines in spring!

Good to hear mate. I have a crew working for me. Shame you're not up here in Brizzy because it's about to be growth season and I've got some nice jobs lined up. Am going to have to hire some more help. How'd you get your work? Did you try the print and deliver your own flyers idea?

 

[sirlothie]

Good to hear mate. I have a crew working for me. Shame you're not up here in Brizzy because it's about to be growth season and I've got some nice jobs lined up. Am going to have to hire some more help. How'd you get your work? Did you try the print and deliver your own flyers idea?

Yeah I handed out flyers but not many, maybe 1000 I handed out, I haven't had time... I bought a push bike and printed 4 to a page like you said and officeworks printed and guillotined them for 40 bucks for 2000 flyers. But I only got old pensioners so far who want to pay me bugger all... I think the only way I am going to get established with regular, good paying customers is to buy a round.

I get all the other work through blokes I play cricket with. There is two Jim's, and two independents. It's hard trying to satisfy them all so I am just open with what I am doing and say look whoever asks me first I will do it for and if I am booked I will try do it another day if possible... they all love my work because I have gotten pretty fit and am always keeping myself busy. It's paying off working with these guys as they are starting to think about sending me out on my own, 1 of them wants 2 weeks off over christmas period and said do I want to do the whole round myself and keep all the money!

So I'm rapt, can't wait! in the meantime I am getting 4-5 days a week at the moment working for them so this spring is a write off for me really but I am not really ready as I don't have a proper vehicle for it.. maybe next spring I'll be ready to go for myself at least some of the time.

I would love to do some landscaping work to get a feel for it, maybe when it quiets down here I can fly up there and do a week or two with you.

 

[doodles98]

Yeah I handed out flyers but not many, maybe 1000 I handed out, I haven't had time... I bought a push bike and printed 4 to a page like you said and officeworks printed and guillotined them for 40 bucks for 2000 flyers. But I only got old pensioners so far who want to pay me bugger all... I think the only way I am going to get established with regular, good paying customers is to buy a round.

I get all the other work through blokes I play cricket with. There is two Jim's, and two independents. It's hard trying to satisfy them all so I am just open with what I am doing and say look whoever asks me first I will do it for and if I am booked I will try do it another day if possible... they all love my work because I have gotten pretty fit and am always keeping myself busy. It's paying off working with these guys as they are starting to think about sending me out on my own, 1 of them wants 2 weeks off over christmas period and said do I want to do the whole round myself and keep all the money!

So I'm rapt, can't wait! in the meantime I am getting 4-5 days a week at the moment working for them so this spring is a write off for me really but I am not really ready as I don't have a proper vehicle for it.. maybe next spring I'll be ready to go for myself at least some of the time.

I would love to do some landscaping work to get a feel for it, maybe when it quiets down here I can fly up there and do a week or two with you.

You'd be welcome too actually. Probably don't want to do it over the hot season though because it kills you when you're not used to it.. the humidity up here in summer that is.
I also think you would be better persevering with the flyers and get an ad on gumtree set up before committing to buying a round. And yeah, if you could do a years laboring for a landscaper then you could pick up small jobs doing paving/decking and that kind of stuff. Makes it much easier when you can work on one job and make $1,000 for the week rather than having to find and do 15-20 per week like with a round.

Really glad to hear you're busy and bringing in the $. I've hardly left home all week apart from doing some quotes and supervising a couple of jobs. Painted the toilet and the study and did the accounts and tax. All in-between posting sh$t on Bigfooty that is! Next week will be busy on-site though.

 

[sirlothie]

You'd be welcome too actually. Probably don't want to do it over the hot season though because it kills you when you're not used to it.. the humidity up here in summer that is.
I also think you would be better persevering with the flyers and get an ad on gumtree set up before committing to buying a round. And yeah, if you could do a years laboring for a landscaper then you could pick up small jobs doing paving/decking and that kind of stuff. Makes it much easier when you can work on one job and make $1,000 for the week rather than having to find and do 15-20 per week like with a round.

Really glad to hear you're busy and bringing in the $. I've hardly left home all week apart from doing some quotes and supervising a couple of jobs. Painted the toilet and the study and did the accounts and tax. All in-between posting sh$t on Bigfooty that is! Next week will be busy on-site though.

Yeah I've been to Brisbane in summer and burnt to a crisp the first day... probably want to save it for the cooler months lol.

The thing with the mow is it is hectic for 3-4 months and then slows right down to a crawl in colder months, so yeah I would like to add another string to my bow but I need a van, vans hold their value so it's hard to get a good one for cheap... need a big bet to come in or something haha. I tried to deliver pizzas for a few months thinking I would save 400 a week and buy a van in time for christmas but pay is shithouse and once you deduct fuel and car maintainance and repairs you are making basically nothing so back to the drawing board on that one... but I have a couple of ideas, trying to break into ebay selling next.

 

[wicksy]

I don't about that (Avery killing her). Seems quite unreal when he's on the eve of a massive settlement. He invites a photographer to his property and kills her? It seems more likely that another killer (who's name escapes me) who wanted to set Avery up killed her then planted the body there.

Edward Edwards is who you're thinking of here I believe.
There is a theory that he was also the "Zodiac Killer".
He also had a habit of popping up in documentaries about the murders that he committed.

Here he is captured on camera hovering over the grave of the boys he supposedly killed. Apparently he paid the film maker to be a part of it.



Here he is again in the background of the Making a Murderer documentary.





Without any doubt in my mind, Steven and Brendan are both innocent.
Not sure how anybody could convict them based on the evidence.... Burnt cat or not.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I've long been avoiding this thread until I could watch it, and now we've upgraded our ISP I've just finished watching it tonight.

A few thoughts.

a) I am more certain that evidence was planted than I am of Avery's innocence. Colburn was calling in those plates a couple of days before the RAV4 was found, his explanation sucked. That key could not have been missed in plain sight on five (?) previous searches.
b) Dassey should be walking around a free man. Kuchinsky was absolutely useless, it was a shocking miscarriage of justice. There was no evidence to convict Dassey other than the confession which should never have occurred to a minor without legal representation present, let alone a guy with his IQ.
c) I was always told to answer police truthfully and respectfully, "yes sir, no sir" etc. After watching this show I would have to seriously consider advising my kids to go with a Mike Ehrmantrout "Lawyer... lawyer... lawyer."

 

[Quicky]

Watched 8 episodes now and are at the point of Stevens guilty verdict and the commencement of the young blokes trial. Amazing story really. It would have been nice to hear what favourable evidence the prosection was able to introduce. Because it all appeared tainted. No doubt the doco was made from this perspective, but their claims seem reasonable. Plenty of doubt imo. During the prosecutors closing argument, he said something along the lines of "Reasonable doubt is only for innocent people"

My god, reasonable doubt is for everyone. Unless there was a lot more evidence produced at the trial that we didn't see, the only thing in my mind was severe doubt. Probably the only thing the defence didn't do was to produce a viable alternative suspect. But they certainly produced plenty of doubt, even if the couldn't actually prove the corrupt police angle. And the thing about that is, its not the job of the defence to prove somebody innocent, its the job of the prosecution to prove someone guilty, and there were so many unanswered question imo.

It would have been difficult for the defence to produce a viable alternative suspect given the limited and narrow investigation that occurred by the cops. They didn't pursue anyone else whatsoever. It was fuct.

I must say there were a few loose ends even given that investigation. Brendans brothers contrived alibi. The ex-boyfriends role in the search, his acess to Teresa's phone, the missing voice mail messages. How conveniently the search party located the car on that lot. And how long it took the house mate to notify of Teresa's disappearance. How none of those leads were followed up boggles.

 

[Quicky]

Will probably do so along with others.

Reading some more on this one.

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/makingamurdereralternativesuspects.html

and a bunch of others on the same site for starters I think.

The second article there is very interesting. It explains why the defence was unable to present alternative suspects based on a past precedent. It seems they had 4 possible suspects some of which were questioned in court, but not in relation to being suspects. That means at least one of those four is Stevens nephew, Brendans brother, I forget his name.

To me I reckon someone else committed the murder. I reckon they shot her, put her body in the car, took her to the quarry pit and burned the body. They dumped the remains in Avery's fire pit and the car at the salvage yard.

I reckon later on the two coppers Lenk and the other fellow helped plant physical evidence later (the bullet, the car key and Avery's blood in the car) to ensure a conviction; because they were convinced he did it.

 

[Quicky]

It's almost 2018 now. Does anyone know if the cases ended up at federal court?

Old Spice.

 

[wicksy]

It's almost 2018 now. Does anyone know if the cases ended up at federal court?

Old Spice.

The most recent appeal got squashed.
Pretty sure he'll serve out his days and be remembered as the most unlucky man in human history.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...very-new-trial-season-2-netflix-a7982391.html

Actually, i'm wrong. There was another motion on the 23rd of October.

http://www.newsweek.com/steven-aver...nnocent-guilty-kathleen-zellner-making-762639