Play Nice Marriage Equality - Now with poll

[Tulip]

This really needed it own thread on this board?

I'd suggest it falls into the category of 'general discussion' of the non footy type. I seem to recall a thread like that around these parts.

Depends on how big an issue our club's weak stance is. Makes a mockery of many of our half-cocked social campaigns.

 

[Crimson Azure]

This issue has highlighted one very sad fact about our society, we are basically a nation of bigots.

How can you say that before the votes are tallied? What if its a decisive yes vote?

Wait, so a yes vote immediately puts you in the category of 'non-bigot?'

I am exposed to a lot of poeple every day, from every background, belief and lifestyle and I can assure you that voting yes/no has very little to do with bigotry.

Bigot definition: 'A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions'

So the vote of yes/no has nothing to do with defining you as a bigot its being intolerant towards those who's opinion differs that makes you one. I'm sure the both of you along with myself would have differing opinions on many, many things. No one should be forced to agree with anyone or vote or lean a certain way based on pressure, thats totalitarian and autocratic thinking. Likely there are practices and life choices that we would see differently. But I believe you have the absolute right to think, practice or do whatever you want, just don't expect me to think, say or do the same things if its not my view or opinion. I have an inherent right to my own opinions and view. within reason of course.

I'm not speaking at you btw its a general 'you'.

Now enough of my braggadocio.

Why the hell did I let myself get drawn into this thread?!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cannon82]

Not looking like Carlton for one thing.

Also, we might discourage religious zealots joining the club, which is nice, because people who go to church are ******* boring and I don't get on with homophobes either.

You don't really think companies like ANZ, Combank, Qantas,Telstra, Google etc. haven't weighed up the benefits or not of signing their name to the equality campaign?

Collingwood went from a rabble to powerhouse in a decade- IMO part of the reason is their efforts to engage the wider community and commitment to corporate social responsibility/ the initiatives/programs they participated in.

At the very least, I don't see how taking a positive stand in this issue can hurt us.

I hope there's more to the "clear benefits" than that.

I don't know, I can see the religious zealots fitting in well with certain folk. They can bond over their shared sense of self-righteousness.

Odd that you'd pick companies as an example. Their joining a campaign is more likely going to be a business decision than a moral one. How many dollars are you likely to gain versus how many you'll lose by declaring your stance on a certain issue. I don't know how many businesses have signed up, but I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean compared to the ones that haven't... so kind of hard to prove a point on that front, I would think.

Not sure what particular what particular Collingwood era you're discussing there, but I would lean more heavily towards better management solving their problems rather than social responsibility. Just like all the other ebbs and flows in football.

 

[schmuttt]

Depends on how big an issue our club's weak stance is. Makes a mockery of many of our half-cocked social campaigns.

Club is weak for no comment, seems legit.

 

[DemonTim]

I hope there's more to the "clear benefits" than that.

I don't know, I can see the religious zealots fitting in well with certain folk. They can bond over their shared sense of self-righteousness.

Odd that you'd pick companies as an example. Their joining a campaign is more likely going to be a business decision than a moral one. How many dollars are you likely to gain versus how many you'll lose by declaring your stance on a certain issue. I don't know how many businesses have signed up, but I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean compared to the ones that haven't... so kind of hard to prove a point on that front, I would think.

Not sure what particular what particular Collingwood era you're discussing there, but I would lean more heavily towards better management solving their problems rather than social responsibility. Just like all the other ebbs and flows in football.

In more general terms, almost all clubs/businesses will push campaigns for equality and diversity.

 

[Cannon82]

In more general terms, almost all clubs/businesses will push campaigns for equality and diversity.

Push campaigns? No. Have clear public policies on it? Yes.

 

[Crimson Azure]

Depends on how big an issue our club's weak stance is. Makes a mockery of many of our half-cocked social campaigns.

See this is the problem, you are trying to insist that others take a stance. Even if its a football club or a business they have the right to take a position or take no position. Same is true with a person.

I haven't seen you post once about some of the injustices going on in Russia at the moment. Also South Korea, DRC, and so on. Its just that the media is interested in this, it has a groundswell of support from many who can express their opinion of visible platforms and it also incites everyone to call everyone with a differing opinion, names - Which everyone seems to love. I've seen generally fair minded people name calling over this, how petty.

The 'its ok to say no' thing going around social media and the text messages sent out to everyone, no thanks. Its people insisting that you think their way.

#Vote #yesnomaybeidontknowcouldyourepeatthequestion

 

[Crimson Azure]

Club is weak for no comment, seems legit.

This is the problem, no one can not take a side according to those who have made up their mind which side they fall on, and generally they insist you must agree with them.

#whataboutswitzerland

#Footytalk

 

[DemonTim]

Push campaigns? No. Have clear public policies on it? Yes.

I think now you're just being over the top with semantics
If the AFL putting up "yes" is forcing it down people's throats then any policy would fall under what I said

Didn't change my point either way

 

[Marc_Remillard]

How can you say that before the votes are tallied? What if its a decisive yes vote?

Wait, so a yes vote immediately puts you in the category of 'non-bigot?'

I am exposed to a lot of poeple every day, from every background, belief and lifestyle and I can assure you that voting yes/no has very little to do with bigotry.

Bigot definition: 'A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions'

So the vote of yes/no has nothing to do with defining you as a bigot its being intolerant towards those who's opinion differs that makes you one. I'm sure the both of you along with myself would have differing opinions on many, many things. No one should be forced to agree with anyone or vote or lean a certain way based on pressure, thats totalitarian and autocratic thinking. Likely there are practices and life choices that we would see differently. But I believe you have the absolute right to think, practice or do whatever you want, just don't expect me to think, say or do the same things if its not my view or opinion. I have an inherent right to my own opinions and view. within reason of course.

I'm not speaking at you btw its a general 'you'.

Now enough of my braggadocio.

Why the hell did I let myself get drawn into this thread?!!!!!!!!!

I didn't explain myself properly with that post because I wanted to see the reaction it would get, I deliberately left it open to interpretation because I knew there was going to be an assumption made and these replies are exactly what I was expecting.

I've been following this campaign on social media (it's been a very nice example of social engineering btw) and the one thing the 'Yes' campaigners are big on is that this is about love. The right for two people who love each other to get married regardless of their sex. (Fair enough, I have no problems with that at all).

That is until the 'Yes' horde comes across someone who publicly states that they will vote no. And then it becomes something that has nothing to do with love at all, it becomes a free for all for who can outdo each other with the most vile and disgusting torrent of abuse and vitriol you have ever seen.

Of course the No'ers are pretty handy themselves with vile and disgusting comments aimed at homosexuals, but we've known that for a long time.

So, going back to my original comment, we are a nation of bigots. But the worse thing about us as a nation is that we're vile and disgusting bigots who claim to be the exact opposite, all the while pointing their fingers at others. There's nothing worse than a bigot who thinks their hatred is justified because they think they have the moral high ground. It's like those moron local Councillors in Yarra, all their grand standing has achieved is to divide the community even further.

 

[Cannon82]

I think now you're just being over the top with semantics
If the AFL putting up "yes" is forcing it down people's throats then any policy would fall under what I said

Didn't change my point either way

Righto, Tim. If you think companies having policies dictated by law is the same as actively and publicly campaigning for an issue, good for you.

 

[Cannon82]

But the worse thing about us as a nation is that we're vile and disgusting bigots who claim to be the exact opposite, all the while pointing their fingers at others. There's nothing worse than a bigot who thinks their hatred is justified because they think they have the moral high ground. It's like those moron local Councillors in Yarra, all their grand standing has achieved is to divide the community even further.

Pretty much spot on there.

 

[DemonTim]

Righto, Tim. If you think companies having policies dictated by law is the same as actively and publicly campaigning for an issue, good for you.

Um...they do. I worked in the energy industry for 5 years. They basically had a monthly "social" campaign that had no relation to AGL. And we were behind the rest of the industry for this stuff.

Are you saying there's no benefits in doing this?

 

[Cannon82]

Um...they do. I worked in the energy industry for 5 years. They basically had a monthly "social" campaign that had no relation to AGL. And we were behind the rest of the industry for this stuff.

Are you saying there's no benefits in doing this?

And I work in manufacturing Tim and there is the square root of sweet FA done by my company other than focus on work. Oh, and they release the WGEA report every year with a bucketload of statistics and statement to the effect of the company has no plan to chase women for roles.

What are the benefits, Tim? I asked this question earlier. Tangible benefits only, thanks.

 

[DemonTim]

And I work in manufacturing Tim and there is the square root of sweet FA done by my company other than focus on work. Oh, and they release the WGEA report every year with a bucketload of statistics and statement to the effect of the company has no plan to chase women for roles.

What are the benefits, Tim? I asked this question earlier. Tangible benefits only, thanks.

Didn't the user provide an answer and you said "is that all?"

Just to clarify because you seem to be getting pissy, you want me to give you tangible benefits of "pushing" equality and diversity campaigns?

I'm not sure why you're talking about chasing women for roles. Unless you think campaign = forced gender hiring percentages

 

[Tulip]

See this is the problem, you are trying to insist that others take a stance. Even if its a football club or a business they have the right to take a position or take no position. Same is true with a person.

I haven't seen you post once about some of the injustices going on in Russia at the moment. Also South Korea, DRC, and so on. Its just that the media is interested in this, it has a groundswell of support from many who can express their opinion of visible platforms and it also incites everyone to call everyone with a differing opinion, names - Which everyone seems to love. I've seen generally fair minded people name calling over this, how petty.

The 'its ok to say no' thing going around social media and the text messages sent out to everyone, no thanks. Its people insisting that you think their way.

#Vote #yesnomaybeidontknowcouldyourepeatthequestion

Why would the Melbourne Football Club comment on Russia or Pyongyang? Stats say that four or five players on our list will be gay, including one on our womens list who already identifies. This campaign has a direct correlation on many of our players and fans.

The idea that I have no right to comment on politics because I don't comment on all political matters is genuinely garbage.

 

[Dark Avenger]

So, going back to my original comment, we are a nation of bigots. But the worse thing about us as a nation is that we're vile and disgusting bigots who claim to be the exact opposite, all the while pointing their fingers at others. There's nothing worse than a bigot who thinks their hatred is justified because they think they have the moral high ground. It's like those moron local Councillors in Yarra, all their grand standing has achieved is to divide the community even further.

Bigotry is a worldwide issue. We are not exclusive.

 

[Toump Ass]

Odd that you'd pick companies as an example. Their joining a campaign is more likely going to be a business decision than a moral one. How many dollars are you likely to gain versus how many you'll lose by declaring your stance on a certain issue.

Sounds good to me; football clubs are a business after all. If there's cash money in declaring a stance on social issues then why wait?

I don't know how many businesses have signed up, but I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean compared to the ones that haven't... so kind of hard to prove a point on that front, I would think.

It's a significant list with 40 of the largest companies in the country: All four major banks, telstra/optus, google, amazon, the AFL, Foxtel, IBM, Microsoft.

Surely having a public stance shared by (at least forty of) the biggest companies in Australia (and approximately 70% of the population) is a good thing?

Not sure what particular Collingwood era you're discussing there, but I would lean more heavily towards better management solving their problems rather than social responsibility. Just like all the other ebbs and flows in football.

Collingwood's membership doubled in the decade after 1999. Sponsors over that period- Qantas, Holden, Westpac all had a strong commitment to social responsibility- something Collingwood invested heavily in over that period.

I don't believe that any company can attract sponsors of that size without sharing the same values. That's why I think it's super important for business that rely on sponsorship to be seen as an advocates for positive social change (as the majority of large organisations at least pretend to be).

I hope there's more to the "clear benefits" than that..

At a basic level it seems like a simple way to generate positive publicity and community goodwill, but there's plenty of scholarly articles on corporate social responsibility if you want to dig a little deeper.

 

[Crimson Azure]

Why would the Melbourne Football Club comment on Russia or Pyongyang? Stats say that four or five players on our list will be gay, including one on our womens list who already identifies. This campaign has a direct correlation on many of our players and fans.

The idea that I have no right to comment on politics because I don't comment on all political matters is genuinely garbage.

Firstly, I said South Korea not north.

Secondly, We would have supporters and staff - yes staff matter just as much in a football club as the players do, who may be from diverse backgrounds who have been affected by many of the wolds injustices and as such are passionate about equality for all humans, or do football clubs have a casting system that only counts players worthy of concern? Should we ignore them. They may wish to see the issues that affect them to end, they may wish for the club to speak out in their behalf but the club can't be all things to everyone. It can however focus on its objective of being a successful entity on and off field. That does not require they buy into social issues.

You can comment on politics all you want, that's your right. I'd just like all humans to be worthy of people's righteous indignation. I value every human life and their right to freedom, not just that of those with the loudest voice.

Is it correct that 10-15% of an AFL list is gay? Have the players been polled? Genuine questions as that doesn't seem in line with statistics nationwide. Or is this sport specific?

 

[DemonTim]

Firstly, I said South Korea not north.

Secondly, We would have supporters and staff - yes staff matter just as much in a football club as the players do, who may be from diverse backgrounds who have been affected by many of the wolds injustices and as such are passionate about equality for all humans, or do football clubs have a casting system that only counts players worthy of concern? Should we ignore them. They may wish to see the issues that affect them to end, they may wish for the club to speak out in their behalf but the club can't be all things to everyone. It can however focus on its objective of being a successful entity on and off field. That does not require they buy into social issues.

You can comment on politics all you want, that's your right. I'd just like all humans to be worthy of people's righteous indignation. I value every human life and their right to freedom, not just that of those with the loudest voice.

Is it correct that 10-15% of an AFL list is gay? Have the players been polled? Genuine questions as that doesn't seem in line with statistics nationwide. Or is this sport specific?

So short version, if you don't promote all social issues, you can't promote any?

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Bigotry is a worldwide issue. We are not exclusive.

But Australian's are very quick to point out what's wrong with the rest of the world

 

[Crimson Azure]

So short version, if you don't promote all social issues, you can't promote any?

No. You shouldn't be called weak for not supporting one though. Anyone can be a supporter, conscientious supporter or a militant supporter they can also stay neutral of have a contrasting view.

 

[Crimson Azure]

But Australian's are very quick to point out what's wrong with the rest of the world

I'd narrow it down to anyone with a differing opinion. We're a sanctimonious bunch.

 

[DemonTim]

No. You shouldn't be called weak for not supporting one though. Anyone can be a supporter, conscientious supporter or a militant supporter they can also stay neutral of have a contrasting view.

I agree. You shouldn't be called weak for it.

But why are you mentioning other issues that we aren't discussing then? I'm really confused (might've missed something)

 

[Crimson Azure]

I agree. You shouldn't be called weak for it.

But why are you mentioning other issues that we aren't discussing then? I'm really confused (might've missed something)

It was more about the insistence on taking a position. No one should be forced to take a position and be derided for not doing so. That includes a club or business. The point I was making is that if a stand was to be taken at the club due to 4 or 5 people then every social issue that affects a single person needs to be looked at.

But if the club choose to take a stand based on their collective conscience, so be it. If they don't, so be it. I'm not the master of what everyone else should think.