Mongrel - who has it who doesn't ? Does it Matter?

[SkyhorseTamer]

I interpreted mongrel as a player that goes in hard and wilfully wants to hurt the oppo so next time he and his team mates think twice before going into next context when he is in the picture. In other words a player that puts fear into oppo players.

I think mongrel is a bit simpler than that. It's the want to never lose. That includes each game moment. Every contest every kick etc. Never lose a moment even when you're hurting the desire to win the next contest is stronger than the need to sit and rest.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

And that's why he is injured more often, his fitness levels aren't sufficient. There is a greater load on limbs, muscles and fatigue leads to poor technique. These things result in injuries, thus injury prone. As tge title of the thread purports, and the discussion following thrashes out, toughness is more that appearing tough, it is the ability to sustain competitiveness beyond your opponent and in 9 years, Williams hadn't consistently done that. You can't divorce the injury prone and fitness in contemporary football. Keep piling on though.

To back up this claim you have to go through all his injuries, determine whether they were contact or not, when they occurred in the game, how many repeat sprints he'd done before, whether he was due for a stint on the bench etc. Which you haven't. So your claims are weak and just guesswork. They *might* be right but you've no proof until you have access to that data, which you don't/wont dedicate the time to.

 

[Accidental genius]

I think mongrel is a bit simpler than that. It's the want to never lose. That includes each game moment. Every contest every kick etc. Never lose a moment even when you're hurting the desire to win the next contest is stronger than the need to sit and rest.

So is there a diff between mongrel and a competitive beast? Or are they the same thing?

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

And that's why he is injured more often, his fitness levels aren't sufficient. There is a greater load on limbs, muscles and fatigue leads to poor technique. These things result in injuries, thus injury prone. As tge title of the thread purports, and the discussion following thrashes out, toughness is more that appearing tough, it is the ability to sustain competitiveness beyond your opponent and in 9 years, Williams hadn't consistently done that. You can't divorce the injury prone and fitness in contemporary football. Keep piling on though.

Oh and one of the absolute toughest bloke I ever played with was retired by 22 23ish. Too many injuries. So no. You're wrong on that 'ability to play through' point as well

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

So is there a diff between mongrel and a competitive beast? Or are they the same thing?

Same to me. I don't know of a 'soft' competitive beast off the top of my head

 

[thylacine60]

there are different aspects of tough in a player - but imo, the garden variety fan will suggest mongrel is largely physical and is based on overt aggression.....

 

[Metalcrusher]

there are different aspects of tough in a player - but imo, the garden variety fan will suggest mongrel is largely physical and is based on overt aggression.....

Gross generalisation there champ. Also ... way to pigeon hole posters

For someone as apparantly as "inclusive" as you, that is a poor .. poor statement of opinion.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Oh and one of the absolute toughest bloke I ever played with was retired by 22 23ish. Too many injuries. So no. You're wrong on that 'ability to play through' point as well

Where did I say your quotation? I absolutely agree that the ability to compete through adversity is a sign of mongrel. That adversity doesn't have to be injury though. Eddie, Goodes and Winmar were tough because they played through the adversity of racial attacks. Again, I dont know your example, I'm sure he/she is tough. That has nothing to do with the argument though.

 

[BigBreakfast]

To back up this claim you have to go through all his injuries, determine whether they were contact or not, when they occurred in the game, how many repeat sprints he'd done before, whether he was due for a stint on the bench etc. Which you haven't. So your claims are weak and just guesswork. They *might* be right but you've no proof until you have access to that data, which you don't/wont dedicate the time to.

The most frequent injury Williams has suffered are Hammies. He had a major Achilles tear in 2019. Debatable but, fitness could be a contributing factor in these injuries.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Where did I say your quotation? I absolutely agree that the ability to compete through adversity s a sign of mongrel. That adversity doesn't have to be injury though. Eddie, Goodes and Winmar were tough because he played through the adversity of racial attacks. Again, I dont know your example, I'm sure he/she is tough. That has nothing to do with the argument though.

The most frequent injury Williams has suffered are Hammies. He had a major Achilles tear in 2019. Debatable but, fitness could be a contributing factor in these injuries.

Making sure your body is in the best possible shape it can be (something Williams has proven not to do), helps reduce soft tissue injury.

 

[Justnetime]

Pseudo injuries? That's a piss take surely. Just cause the bloke cops more injuries than others have been doesn't mean they're pseudo, or do you not know what that means and what you've implied by saying it. Christ. Pseudo injuries.

Could we level the pseudo injuries accusation at McGovern.Took himself off mid match with injury concern leaving us short….then played the following weeks banking both match payments. Conspiracy, or just plain meanness on my behalf?

 

[JustaBattler]

My highlight of the year was watching Williams bounce that Adelaide bloke's head onto the astroturf ....

 

[Justnetime]

And that's why he is injured more often, his fitness levels aren't sufficient. There is a greater load on limbs, muscles and fatigue leads to poor technique. These things result in injuries, thus injury prone. As tge title of the thread purports, and the discussion following thrashes out, toughness is more that appearing tough, it is the ability to sustain competitiveness beyond your opponent and in 9 years, Williams hadn't consistently done that. You can't divorce the injury prone and fitness in contemporary football. Keep piling on though.

People do tend to pile on but I’m in your corner on your theme. The only thing I’d like to differentiate on is that hamstrings can be a physical limitation once you try to achieve an AFL level of fitness. P Chapman and S Higgins are examples of hard workers who suffered for long periods. Basically nothing to do with their personal fault.

Dr Larkins pointed out a point that we will see play out with C Curnow. He said once he pushes his body to the AFL limit, then with his injuries he will break down. If Charlie maybe pushes his body to 90% maybe he survives. Trelaor is another example of a player that if puts the jets on at 100% he breaks.

So the debate can be argued between unlucky physical impairment vs laziness. Your laziness point or not being physically prepared has basis based on Teagues point. And the media just pointing out his attitude at points in match day games.

On a side point, I personally guess that hamstring tightness/weakness is what really has ended SPS career at Carlton. No speed, no power, no hard tackling despite being not scared physically. Just can’t implement physically what he wants to do mentally. I have no factual evidence of this, just a personal opinion from watching on gameday his lack of stretch and emergency.

Back to Williams, We have to guess here which comes first…the limitation or the lazy frustration at not being able to achieve what you want.

 

[katmanblue]

View attachment 1302540

what's this carlton supporter even thinking?

Yes

 

[thylacine60]

My highlight of the year was watching Williams bounce that Adelaide bloke's head onto the astroturf ....

name or vision appreciated.......

 

[Metalcrusher]

name or vision appreciated.......

 

[JustaBattler]

name or vision appreciated.......

New Carlton recruit slapped with suspension for rough conduct

The decision is in.

www.sen.com.au

see clip #2 - it has been 'sanitised' somewhat ..but that is how opposition players should be 'handled' when they cross the line

there is (of course) a background story to this - some racially abusive language sprayed around - Williams got more support for his real mongrel and support for team-mates from fellow players from other clubs than on here..

Williams is not the first player of Aboriginal heritage to be described pejoratively by TV commentators for actions that wouldn't get much of a mention was happy he got support from Burgoyne and a few other decent bokes - I know Voss would back him up - we should be ok as far as that type of signaling goes - moving forward I hope so anyway...

 

[JustaBattler]

Well done with this post - the side-by-side example perfectly encapsulates the bias commentary and bias rulings when it comes to different clubs and different skin and hair colours.

The AFL has a long long way to go to match other codes as far as being serious about removing bias and prejudice.

It is ok for 'tough' white boy to smash a head - but certainly not Ok for an uppitty black boy to give some back...

 

[thylacine60]

it's not really mongrel but what do people think of our general ability to carry niggles/injuries? I reckon it's part of a player's endurance and willingness to commit to the effort - not in a silly way, sometimes it would be dangerous to try to push through pain, particularly before it has been properly assessed - is it tough to carry injuries? do we need to get better at it as a club or is it more a personal thing? for mine we do seem to be on the fragile side of the ledger

 

[Bluesmond]

it's not really mongrel but what do people think of our general ability to carry niggles/injuries? I reckon it's part of a player's endurance and willingness to commit to the effort - not in a silly way, sometimes it would be dangerous to try to push through pain, particularly before it has been properly assessed - is it tough to carry injuries? do we need to get better at it as a club or is it more a personal thing? for mine we do seem to be on the fragile side of the ledger

From personal experience it all depends on the injury and how well you and club docs know your own body I've had injuries where the club doc stopped me going back out due to the likelihood of doing more damage but other times they've been more than happy for me to continue playing while injured since the chance of making it worse is limited I'd imagine it'd be the same at afl level

 

[JustaBattler]

Most players see the game as a well-paid job with benefits if they can cop a week or so off because 'sore' they will put their hand up for it. In a winning team with chances to actually achieve something, the reverse happens but only if there is competition for spots and you have to play your way back in via reserves.

This later hasn't been the case at Carlton for two decades.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Most players see the game as a well-paid job with benefits if they can cop a week or so off because 'sore' they will put their hand up for it. In a winning team with chances to actually achieve something, the reverse happens but only if there is competition for spots and you have to play your way back in via reserves.

This later hasn't been the case at Carlton for two decades.

At Carlton we have players that have (almost) spent their entire career injured ...

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

it's not really mongrel but what do people think of our general ability to carry niggles/injuries? I reckon it's part of a player's endurance and willingness to commit to the effort - not in a silly way, sometimes it would be dangerous to try to push through pain, particularly before it has been properly assessed - is it tough to carry injuries? do we need to get better at it as a club or is it more a personal thing? for mine we do seem to be on the fragile side of the ledger

Easier to commit and play through pain when you know others are. Get the feeling there's been a lack of unity and full togetherness which leads to a 'why should I if he doesnt' attitude to sneak in.

 

[thylacine60]

that strikes me as a personal choice, the type of character and integrity a player brings to the club - I'd like to see us bring more hard heads into the place - they don't have to be kamikaze pilots like robbo but hopefully we've seen the last of menzel type selections..........

 

[norway blue]

Easier to commit and play through pain when you know others are. Get the feeling there's been a lack of unity and full togetherness which leads to a 'why should I if he doesnt' attitude to sneak in.

Voss will put a lid on that attitude. And Hamill .


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