More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - featuring the mini-draft

[Ants]

A question that has come up a few times is how the trading for the GWS U17yr old players will work. i.e. those kids not available until next year's draft that GWS can trade now. There has been discussion over whether it will be a mini-draft and GWS will trade slots in it, or if clubs will nominate a player and trade directly for that player. This article appears to clarify it:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/112004/default.aspx

It appears clubs will nominate a player and trade with GWS directly for the player.

For info, GWS's entry rules are here: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/86738/default.aspx

With the relevant paragraph/rule covering this area being this:

7. Incentive to other clubs trading with Team GWS in the 2011 and 2012 post-season:
Team GWS to be given access to four 17-year-olds born in the January to April 1994 window, with all players to be traded to other clubs. Selections will be allocated to Team GWS so the club can trade for established players, but the club will not have access to these 17-year-olds. If the four trades are not completed in the 2011 post-season, the balance of up to four trades may be used in the 2012 trading period.

We still don't know when the trade period will happen. Vader found this from the AFL Player Rules which indicates that there will be a trade period, but not the dates:

36.9 Trade Incentives – 2011 and 2012
(a) In addition to the permitted exchanges under Rule 4.3 and 36.8, in 2011 WSFC will be provided with the opportunity to on trade to another Club the right to select up to four 17 year olds (born January – April 1994) during the period determined by the General Manager – Football Operations and in accordance with guidelines established by the AFL.
(b) Should WSFC not on trade the opportunity select all four 17 year olds under Rule 36.9(a) in 2011, WSFC will be provided with the opportunity to on trade to another Club the right to select further 17 year olds (born January – April 1995) during the period determined by the General Manager – Football Operations and in accordance with guidelines established by the AFL, provided that no more than four 17 year olds in total are in traded under this Rules 36.9.

 

[Ants]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

It will be interesting to see what the value of these picks are. Obviously these should be pretty talented kids, and the fact that GWS can spread the 4 trades over two drafts means they don't have to flog them all at one go. There is more risk as the kids are younger, but that never stopped players like Watts, Yarran and Ziebell going early when there was access to this age group in the main draft.

The real question mark is what teams will give up. Would any with a first round pick outside the top 10 probably offer it? Yes. But GWS probably wants players. The main ones with quality depth are those in contention - would a Collingwood really want to give up depth now while contending to get a talented 17yr old on the list? Sure, he may be vital in 5yrs time, but they and other teams contending would be thinking premiership now.

And by the time these 17yr olds are really kicking on, so will GC/GWS's plethora of talented kids. A single extra 17yr old then may not make a great deal of difference. So those teams may prefer to only offer a little bit (say one player), preferring to make hay while the sun shines.

Then there are teams in the bottom half of the table. Would they love one of these kids? Of course. But what do they have to give up? They're not going to give up talented young kids - they need them. And they don't have depth or they wouldn't be in the bottom half of the eight. Maybe an older player nearing the end - but does GWS want that, and can't they just try and get them uncontracted?

Obviously if a team in the top 4 now decides its all over, and rebuild (e.g. Saints), they can offer more. But will any club really want to do that? And if so, won't it encourage any real stars they have to jump ship and take a lucrative offer from GWS? After all, in that scenario the club's pretty much saying there won't be a premiership for a number of years. So going hard may just lose you a good player to GWS under the uncontracted player rules.

So there are going to be some really interesting trading. Lots for each team to think about. And lots for GWS to decide what it really wants.

 

[liz]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

It makes most sense for teams nearer the top to trade for these - both from their point of view and GWS. What GWS really need is a handful of players who have played between 50 and 150 or so games to add some backbone to their team. Some they will get via uncontracted player entitlements and these picks offer them the chance to get a few more.

Teams who have finished in the top 8 consistently for the past few years and expect to do some again have had limited access to very good draft picks. They are also likely to be the clubs with the best depth in the 22-26 age range, have younger players ready to play who they can't fit into their team, and therefore be in a position to bite the bullet and trade someone clearly in their best 22 for the chance at a highly rated youngster.

The age of these players really shouldn't change their draft value. Two years ago, players in this age range were eligible to be drafted proper and there were always plenty taken as 17 year olds, including plenty taken in the top 10.

 

[Turbocat]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Some well thought conjecture there Ants.

It all depends on what GWS want doesn't it.To me its crazy that they would go after Scully , a kid himself that has no experience. A "Bartel" on the other hand would be player all the kids would reference as what you do to be successful. They will have a heap of their own kids anyway , why pickup even more?

Now hopefully Bartel stays at Geelong , but maybe there are other of that type in a few different teams. St's , Cats , Dogs, Hawks all have players that they could lose and the clubs would suppose that they may be better of long term. I wouldn't put it past the Pies either to think long term. They have confidence that there system can top up players that they lose.

Just how many players/picks for these pick deals to be done? Thats where it will end up being messy with a behind the scenes auction. And with these rules , I think this will mean even contracted players will be contacted by GWS to gauge their interest.

 

[morebeer]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

It will be interesting to see what the value of these picks are. Obviously these should be pretty talented kids, and the fact that GWS can spread the 4 trades over two drafts means they don't have to flog them all at one go. There is more risk as the kids are younger, but that never stopped players like Watts, Yarran and Ziebell going early when there was access to this age group in the main draft.

The real question mark is what teams will give up. Would any with a first round pick outside the top 10 probably offer it? Yes. But GWS probably wants players. The main ones with quality depth are those in contention - would a Collingwood really want to give up depth now while contending to get a talented 17yr old on the list? Sure, he may be vital in 5yrs time, but they and other teams contending would be thinking premiership now.

And by the time these 17yr olds are really kicking on, so will GC/GWS's plethora of talented kids. A single extra 17yr old then may not make a great deal of difference. So those teams may prefer to only offer a little bit (say one player), preferring to make hay while the sun shines.

Then there are teams in the bottom half of the table. Would they love one of these kids? Of course. But what do they have to give up? They're not going to give up talented young kids - they need them. And they don't have depth or they wouldn't be in the bottom half of the eight. Maybe an older player nearing the end - but does GWS want that, and can't they just try and get them uncontracted?

Obviously if a team in the top 4 now decides its all over, and rebuild (e.g. Saints), they can offer more. But will any club really want to do that? And if so, won't it encourage any real stars they have to jump ship and take a lucrative offer from GWS? After all, in that scenario the club's pretty much saying there won't be a premiership for a number of years. So going hard may just lose you a good player to GWS under the uncontracted player rules.

So there are going to be some really interesting trading. Lots for each team to think about. And lots for GWS to decide what it really wants.

It all depends on who the 17 year old is. I would rekon David Swallow in 2009 would have had clubs queing up to get him as a 17 year old. The recruiters know who all the guns are. GWS will just auction the picks up and take the highest bidder.

 

[chardonnay]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Scully is in the mix as a result of Melbourne Football Clubs failure to lock him up as they have done with Trengove - there arent many of Scullys ilk available.
Turning 21 in 2012, with a couple of pre seasons under his belt, he is ideal GWS material.

 

[rgauci]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

What the article doesn't clarify, is whether Western Sydney must trade for established players or whether they can trade for picks, compensation picks etc.

The thing with an example like Scully. He could move to Western Sydney without Western Sydney giving up anything given he's not contracted.

Melbourne would get a 1st round pick compensation given the calibre of Scully. Wonder if Melbourne would then exchange that compensation for a crack at a 17 year old.

A future 1st round pick would be invaluable to Western Sydney. Given they are likely to win the spoon in their first year, if they could get two or three of these compensation picks in exchange for the 17 year olds, they would activate the picks heading into season 2012.

They could have picks 1,2,3 in 2012. I'm not sure 'established' players is the trade they would be looking for.

 

[Brave New World]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Good points all-round. I think GWS will seek quality players with experience by two methods. The 17 year olds traded and by paying well above the rate to players at clubs which are in a longer rebuilding phase and will unlikely achieve preimership trajection for a while. They may also be encouraged by their own club if the re-compensation is good enough.

Hard to see very good players at Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong leaving at the end of the year. But those clubs between 4 - 12 all have at least a few stand-outs and there maybe the target pool. The Saints are the more interesting crowd; if players feel they have missed the Cup in this cycle they wold be more likely to move; e.g. a Goddard rather than a Thomas.

 

[liz]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Hard to see very good players at Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong leaving at the end of the year. But those clubs between 4 - 12 all have at least a few stand-outs and there maybe the target pool. The Saints are the more interesting crowd; if players feel they have missed the Cup in this cycle they wold be more likely to move; e.g. a Goddard rather than a Thomas.

Can't see any club willingly trading any of their top 4 or 5 players (or younger players they see as becoming top 4 or 5 shortly). But I could see a few considering their next rung of player, especially if they have depth in the position. Obviously these players need to be willing to move, but the extra money GWS will be able to offer could be some kind of carrot.

I can't see the Saints giving even a nanosecond of thought to trading Goddard (unless instigated by Goddard) but someone like Gilbert could come under consideration.

 

[ROYAL EAGLE]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

My understanding is that the player has to be currently contracted to another club, before you can get access to a 17 year old.

So if Scully or a Palmer or a Bartel are out of contract at end of season they cant be traded for a 17 year old.

Its only contracted players that can be used to gain access, thats how it was explained to me by Neville Stibbard.

 

[Raymann]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Good points all-round. I think GWS will seek quality players with experience by two methods. The 17 year olds traded and by paying well above the rate to players at clubs which are in a longer rebuilding phase and will unlikely achieve preimership trajection for a while. They may also be encouraged by their own club if the re-compensation is good enough.

Hard to see very good players at Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong leaving at the end of the year. But those clubs between 4 - 12 all have at least a few stand-outs and there maybe the target pool. The Saints are the more interesting crowd; if players feel they have missed the Cup in this cycle they wold be more likely to move; e.g. a Goddard rather than a Thomas.

IMO GWS should target say - Wood, Macaffer, McCarthy, Twovey from collingwood. all on the promise of regular game time and triple pay. surely a win/win. What about Josh Hunt from Geelong?

its these type of players that will enable the giants to be competitive for the first couple of seasons until the 2010 All Aust u18 team kicks in!

 

[Turbocat]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

IMO GWS should target say - Wood, Macaffer, McCarthy, Twovey from collingwood. all on the promise of regular game time and triple pay. surely a win/win. What about Josh Hunt from Geelong?

its these type of players that will enable the giants to be competitive for the first couple of seasons until the 2010 All Aust u18 team kicks in!

I think clubs would be ecstatic if they targeted these guys. The likes of Geelong would be far more concerned if they had a ping at their mids after already losing Ablett. If the deal is Josh Hunt and our R1 pick for the u17 , then where do I sign

 

[Mrs Mercuri]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Essendon did pretty well out of this when Freo joined the comp... we gave up Ridley and Delaney and got a certain 17 yr old called Matthew Lloyd!!!

We will certainly be trading for Joe Daniher at some stage, i would give them Dyson or Prismall in exchange at the moment.

 

[Raymann]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Potential 2012 line up?

6 x GWS 18yr olds
1 x AFL A Grader (Murphy)
2 x AFL B grader (Carlisle & Sewell)
4 x AFL Young players (Gillies, Goldsack McCarthy & Macaffer)
9 x AFL hard bodies that are struggling at their current clubs

B) J Hunt A Carlisle T Gillies

HB) Riemers T Goldsack T Murphy

C) GWS M Murphy GWS

HF) Bevan M Clarke Macaffer

F) J Moore K Bradley GWS

R) C Wood
RR) McCarthy
R) B Sewell

Int) W Minson
GWS
GWS
GWS

 

[Danair]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Potential 2012 line up?

6 x GWS 18yr olds
1 x AFL A Grader (Murphy)
2 x AFL B grader (Carlisle & Sewell)
4 x AFL Young players (Gillies, Goldsack McCarthy & Macaffer)
9 x AFL hard bodies that are struggling at their current clubs

B) J Hunt A Carlisle T Gillies

HB) Riemers T Goldsack T Murphy

C) GWS M Murphy GWS

HF) Bevan M Clarke Macaffer

F) J Moore K Bradley GWS

R) C Wood
RR) McCarthy
R) B Sewell

Int) W Minson
GWS
GWS
GWS

No Tom Scully?

 

[old55]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

No Tom Scully?

Out: Scully (knee)

 

[Raymann]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

I think GWS already have a few Tom Scully's in their ranks - Sheil etc.

Getting Scully would only be recruiting similar types, better of with a sewell and Murphy!

 

[Danair]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Out: Scully (knee)

So they say

 

[morebeer]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

I think GWS already have a few Tom Scully's in their ranks - Sheil etc.

Getting Scully would only be recruiting similar types, better of with a sewell and Murphy!

Are you serious Ray, you would rather have Sewell over Scully?

 

[masai]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Potential 2012 line up?

F) J Moore K Bradley GWS

QUOTE]

Kep aint going anywhere, he is Harve's lovechild.

 

[Raymann]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Are you serious Ray, you would rather have Sewell over Scully?

what i am suggesting is GWS need a hard in and under like Sewell. he would give them a couple of years and make way for the young talent that they have already and will recruit.

They will recruit Scully types (Sheil, Treloar etc), maybe not as good but good enough. if they dont do something about being competitive in the first couple of years some of the youngsters will not develop and will be eventually cherry picked by established clubs. Some of these young players require the bigger bodied teammates around them so they can play thier best footy.

 

[Toadvine]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Shane Tuck and Will Thursfield could be good stop gaps for GWSs first few seasons, Tuck to get the hard ball and feed it out to the youngsters and Thursfield to take the opositions No1 forwards.

Whether we would get anything for them is another issue all together but I think they could be good honest foudation players to ease the pressure on the kids.

They'd do a hell of a lot better than what krakouer has done for GC17 in my opinion.

 

[Raymann]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Priddis & A Selwood for a kid named O,Meara could be on the cards

 

[Danair]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

Priddis & A Selwood for a kid named O,Meara could be on the cards

I thought Freo were after O'Meara and West Coast were after Yarren?

 

[new breed]

Re: More clarity on GWS U17yr old trades - no mini-draft

I thought Freo were after O'Meara and West Coast were after Yarren?

Yarran trained with West Coast pre season and would suit us as an outside goal kicking wingmen but Freo and WCE are in a Tug Of War over Omeara it has been reported recently . I think Yarran would be good for WCE if we could give GWS less but it doesnt work that way , GWS will take the best deals in experienced players given ,... so Omeara our target if we have a go at this draft process ! Omeara wants to stay in WA , Collingwood have shown interest but he will stay at Home

It was mentioned previously that picks could be included but only experienced players will be exchanged I believe