Next Coach

[Square Peg]

This is where my logic seems to often make me unpopular in these neck of the woods.

It appears that you think Freo did not have the best team, did not have the best list and believed RTB's game plan sucked ... yet Freo finished on top of the ladder.
How does that work?



I never claimed Hawthorn were certain premiers.




Again, my logic struggles with your comments.



My comment about the umpiring was to justify why my expectations of Freo winning the premiership were low.
You can search some of my posts prior to the PF. I was very much on record with my predictions about how Freo were going to get screwed by the umpiring (which we did ... even Hawks supporters admitted it).
For example, my first post in the 2015 PF preview thread which caused a storm of responses against me was;

I truly believe if this game was played on neutral ground with neutral umpiring, Fremantle would win.
But the desired result of this game has already been determined with the appointment of those three umpires.

In the last 2 years, Fremantle have lost 13 games. One or more of those three umpires have been involved in 12 of those losses.
The only loss where they were not involved, was the recent Port Adelaide loss where over half the Fremantle team was rested.
In contrast, for the same period there has been 20 games where none of those three umpires were involved, and Fremantle won all 20 games.

The statistics for Dalgleish show even at Subi home games, he strongly favours West Coast yet is strongly against Fremantle.

Stevic, well in the last three years (12 games) I can only find one game when Fremantle won the Free Kicks in a game with him and that was vs Adelaide (12-11). His Free Kick avgs in the last two years when Fremantle plays a VIC team is 15 Frees For vs 24 Against.

Rosebury, unfortunately in my opinion is the worst out of the three. He paid the 50m penalty against Luke McPharlin in the 2013 GF that wrongly gifted Buddy Franklin a goal (that was one of many of his poor decisions in that game). Fremantle have lost 8 of the 12 games in which he has umpired in the last 2 years.

Statistically speaking, coincidentally or not, I can not find any umpires that have been more related to recent Fremantle losses than these three.

I do try hard to understand the argument of RTB haters, but generally fail in my attempts.
Mostly because their points are often laced with subjective opinions and rarely backed up with good examples.
For instance, cherry picking and using West Coast's attacking game as an example, when it was exactly that game plan that saw West Coast get smashed
by Hawthorn in the 2015 GF.

Anyways, we all have our own beliefs and I will continue to try to keep an open mind, read and try to understand those criticising RTB.
I hope they can do the same and not just repeat comments heard without an effort to check the validity first.

I haven't see anyone say all of the problems we have are due to the coach. Hopefully you're not suggesting none of the problems are due to him? Both would be equally wrong.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Fremantle were suspect from that Sydney game in round 4 of 2015.

The signs were there. Nearly blew an 8 goal half time lead. Had no answers to stop Sydney's momentum. Then over subsequent weeks and months the Dockers would routinely build a lead then hang on for dear life scraping over the line in games.

As for the QF win over Sydney, Sydney had no Buddy, no Jack, no Parker that day, Goodes had been hounded for being Aboriginal. Freo had rested the week before in round 23. Yet Sydney had 6 more scoring shots and were unlucky not to win it.

The signs were there, but people chose to rationalise these suspect performances saying that it was all part of a greater plan to do just enough to win, etc, etc.

In fact it goes back to late 2014 when Fremantle were in contention for a top two spot and got belted at Etihad by an uncompetitive Saints team. This was supposed to be a percentage booster, but turned into a percentage killer.

Where was the hunger? Fighting for a top two spot, coming off a failed Grand Final appearance the previous year. 2014 was probably Freo's best shot at a premiership. A top two finish would have meant playing Hawthorn at Subiaco in the QF or PF. Would have played Sydney in the GF.

Nearly blew the round 23 2014 game to Port despite building an unassailable lead (same story that would be repeated throughout 2015). In the semi final against Port, Freo had 4 goal lead at half time and all the momentum, but rolled over and barely put up a fight in the second half. They were powerless to stop Port's momentum.

Signs were there but people chose to ignore them.

Same story playing out now. Signs have been there for the last 2.5 years of this rebuild but people ignoring them.

We'll see who is right.

This is a pretty reasonable post and I tend to agree with a lot of it (I seem to recall agreeing with Clogged in mid 2015 that we needed a rebuild end of that year, I do actually miss him).

I struggle to see the parallel with this rebuild though. What you're saying with reference to 2014 and 2015 is that we actually weren't the best team going around - something i'd agree with. So, given that, isn't it really evidence that this 2012-2015 era side wasn't really quite up there with the Hawthorns, Geelongs and Sydneys - and thus probably more likely to fall off a cliff, and hence require a more serious rebuild.

I'm genuinely not sure what you're getting at there, are you saying the rebuild is going to go on for longer than people think (always a genuine possibility) or that it's going to straight up fail? Or is it more of a Ross angle?

 

[Freo112]

This is a pretty reasonable post and I tend to agree with a lot of it (I seem to recall agreeing with Clogged in mid 2015 that we needed a rebuild end of that year, I do actually miss him).

I struggle to see the parallel with this rebuild though. What you're saying with reference to 2014 and 2015 is that we actually weren't the best team going around - something i'd agree with. So, given that, isn't it really evidence that this 2012-2015 era side wasn't really quite up there with the Hawthorns, Geelongs and Sydneys - and thus probably more likely to fall off a cliff, and hence require a more serious rebuild.

I'm genuinely not sure what you're getting at there, are you saying the rebuild is going to go on for longer than people think (always a genuine possibility) or that it's going to straight up fail? Or is it more of a Ross angle?

Fremantle had a good list at the end of 2011. It's a big reason why Lyon jumped ship from a sinking Saints side. Remember that Harvey got a younger version of Rossy's side to the second week of the finals in 2010 coming off a rebuild in 2008/09. 2011 the Dockers were pretty gung ho about being top 4 contenders. Here are links from 2011.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...mcpharlin-ng-37430dfb2cda105072e63e28bc74521c

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/dockers-set-to-soar-under-harvey-20110309-1bnan.html

That's under Harvey who as we know now was a mediocre coach.

When the team lost the last 7 games of 2011 (due to big injury toll) after going 9-6, the club thought this isn't good enough. Even at the midway point of the season I think Harvey's papers were stamped. The club felt they had a top 4 list in a premiership window. They ruthlessly sacked Harvey and got Lyon. Lyon inherited a team with a good mix of talented youth and veterans (many all time greats at Fremantle).

Lyon isn't a rubbish coach. He is (was) able to get everyone motivated and on the same page which is what Fremantle needed at the time. They had the list they just needed full commitment from players. Great motivator (until a certain point). Gets loyalty from his inner core.

That full commitment lasted until about late in 2014. Actually, the first half of 2012 the Dockers weren't setting the world on fire. They were 6-7 midseason. So about 2 years of consistent commitment before we started getting the suspect performances every so often, then more often, the drop offs in games, etc. Now it's just an utter shambles.

Tactically though he's not very astute and has never really evolved from his days at the Swans. Not very good game day coach. Honestly, when was the last time he won a game in the coach's box? The talented Dockers list from 2012-15 hid a lot of the deficiencies in his game plan.

Doesn't develop lists either. He's left devastation in his wake at two clubs.

I haven't seen "manic pressure" since 2014. It's 2018 now, no finals for three years, a slew of uncompetitive 10+ goal thrashings.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Fremantle had a good list at the end of 2011. It's a big reason why Lyon jumped ship from a sinking Saints side. Remember that Harvey got a younger version of Rossy's side to the second week of the finals in 2010 coming off a rebuild in 2008/09. 2011 the Dockers were pretty gung ho about being top 4 contenders. Here are links from 2011.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...mcpharlin-ng-37430dfb2cda105072e63e28bc74521c

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/dockers-set-to-soar-under-harvey-20110309-1bnan.html

That's under Harvey who as we know now was a mediocre coach.

When the team lost the last 7 games of 2011 (due to big injury toll) after going 9-6, the club thought this isn't good enough. Even at the midway point of the season I think Harvey's papers were stamped. The club felt they had a top 4 list in a premiership window. They ruthlessly sacked Harvey and got Lyon. Lyon inherited a team with a good mix of talented youth and veterans (many all time greats at Fremantle).

Lyon isn't a rubbish coach. He is (was) able to get everyone motivated and on the same page which is what Fremantle needed at the time. They had the list they just needed full commitment from players. Great motivator (until a certain point). Gets loyalty from his inner core.

That full commitment lasted until about late in 2014. Actually, the first half of 2012 the Dockers weren't setting the world on fire. They were 6-7 midseason. So about 2 years of consistent commitment before we started getting the suspect performances every so often, then more often, the drop offs in games, etc. Now it's just an utter shambles.

Tactically though he's not very astute and has never really evolved from his days at the Swans. Not very good game day coach. Honestly, when was the last time he won a game in the coach's box? The talented Dockers list from 2012-15 hid a lot of the deficiencies in his game plan.

Doesn't develop lists either. He's left devastation in his wake at two clubs.

I haven't seen "manic pressure" since 2014. It's 2018 now, no finals for three years, a slew of uncompetitive 10+ goal thrashings.

Yeah I get where you're going with the first bit. Obviously 2012 we can quite happily attribute to everyone getting on the page.

So it's a Ross angle then, that's fine. But I am genuinely still a bit miffed as to what you're actually wanting. It's pretty clear from the results in the latter half of 2015, and the two years after, that the side is cooked. So I guess my question is do you largely attribute that to the list or the coach? I think it is both, but mainly the list. We've quite obviously had a bunch of all-time greats and some pretty handy support players retire or be moved on.

In that context I think the 'doesn't develop list' criticism is pretty empty. Didn't need to at the Saints, didn't need to when he got here. Appears to be in the midst of doing so now, in the first chance he's actually had at it. Unless you consider it to also require continued success - which I think is pretty rare in the AFL without external factors coming into it (e.g. Sydney, Geelong). And if that's the case, then honestly I think it's more of a sack Bondy drive that should be happening if we're looking to clear out the culprits.

I guess it comes down to how you rate us 2012-2015. If you rate our list then as amazing and papering over Lyon's cracks then sure, you perceive a drop-off attributable primarily to Lyon. On the other hand, I tend to rate it as less talented than others we came up against in that period and thus attribute more of the success to Lyon. Add in that we had a period of pretty s**t recruiting ~2011-2013 and that's the drop off.

I also quibble with another point. You say he hasn't evolved, yet you also see a change in the lack of manic pressure. So is that only attributable to buy-in on the players behalf, or can it also be evidence of a game plan change?

Ultimately I think I attribute more of our drop off to list factors. Yeah it would have been great if we could have stayed competitive, but we fluffed a few critical recruiting decisions through a mix of bad decisions and bad luck, and that was that. We're quite obviously in a rebuild, and I really struggle to attribute the shitness this year and last to glaring deficiencies in Ross himself. I think he should be on relatively thin ice, and i'd want to see clear improvement in performance towards the end of this year and early next. Even the club has said we're rebuilding, quite a number of times, so why are we wringing our hands about being noncompetitive in games where we're playing like 13 players under 50 games?

The problem I have with clearing him out now is he is, as you say, clearly not a s**t coach but a decent one with some strong points and some failings. We've had enough s**t in our history that i'm a bit nervous about replacing the best strategic coach we've had (depends how you feel about Neesham) with an unknown (unless we could wrangle a Ratten or a Caracella). I mean someone like Longmuir could be the next big thing or he could be Alan Richardson, who the hell knows?

 

[Bicco]

Richmond's had one year out of the 8 since 2013.

Fremantle is about to have three years outside the 8 putting with numerous performances that are simply uncompetitive. Those close wins last year probably flatter the 2017 Fremantle side.

Melbourne hasn't made a final for 12 years. Is that what you aspire towards for Fremantle?

The stats game.
Did you know that since 2016, Richmond have only made the finals once?

 

[yakamoto]

And what’s even more telling Richmond haven’t made the finals in any year since 2017.

 

[Rion]

Yeah I get where you're going with the first bit. Obviously 2012 we can quite happily attribute to everyone getting on the page.

So it's a Ross angle then, that's fine. But I am genuinely still a bit miffed as to what you're actually wanting. It's pretty clear from the results in the latter half of 2015, and the two years after, that the side is cooked. So I guess my question is do you largely attribute that to the list or the coach? I think it is both, but mainly the list. We've quite obviously had a bunch of all-time greats and some pretty handy support players retire or be moved on.

In that context I think the 'doesn't develop list' criticism is pretty empty. Didn't need to at the Saints, didn't need to when he got here. Appears to be in the midst of doing so now, in the first chance he's actually had at it. Unless you consider it to also require continued success - which I think is pretty rare in the AFL without external factors coming into it (e.g. Sydney, Geelong). And if that's the case, then honestly I think it's more of a sack Bondy drive that should be happening if we're looking to clear out the culprits.

I guess it comes down to how you rate us 2012-2015. If you rate our list then as amazing and papering over Lyon's cracks then sure, you perceive a drop-off attributable primarily to Lyon. On the other hand, I tend to rate it as less talented than others we came up against in that period and thus attribute more of the success to Lyon. Add in that we had a period of pretty s**t recruiting ~2011-2013 and that's the drop off.

I also quibble with another point. You say he hasn't evolved, yet you also see a change in the lack of manic pressure. So is that only attributable to buy-in on the players behalf, or can it also be evidence of a game plan change?

Ultimately I think I attribute more of our drop off to list factors. Yeah it would have been great if we could have stayed competitive, but we fluffed a few critical recruiting decisions through a mix of bad decisions and bad luck, and that was that. We're quite obviously in a rebuild, and I really struggle to attribute the shitness this year and last to glaring deficiencies in Ross himself. I think he should be on relatively thin ice, and i'd want to see clear improvement in performance towards the end of this year and early next. Even the club has said we're rebuilding, quite a number of times, so why are we wringing our hands about being noncompetitive in games where we're playing like 13 players under 50 games?

The problem I have with clearing him out now is he is, as you say, clearly not a s**t coach but a decent one with some strong points and some failings. We've had enough s**t in our history that i'm a bit nervous about replacing the best strategic coach we've had (depends how you feel about Neesham) with an unknown (unless we could wrangle a Ratten or a Caracella). I mean someone like Longmuir could be the next big thing or he could be Alan Richardson, who the hell knows?

It's interesting. Not many coaches get given this second life that Ross has got. Seems like most either start essentially at the beginning (build their own team) or like Ross get given an objective to get the team over the final hump and then fall on their sword if they don't get there.

Maybe I'm wrong but I can't really think of any examples from the 2nd group that are kept on and successfully rebuild their teams to challenge again. I think right now we might be seeing why. Too much 'baggage' (like defensive/negative football, not playing youth etc etc) from the first period dragging on the rebuild that wouldn't be around if the rebuild was done under a different coach. Not sure people would be as critical as they are of the team/coach if Caracella for example was here playing a defensive/safe style with 13 guys under 50 out there.

The present isn't always reflective of history of course but personally I think it's quite a struggle for Ross atm.

 

[Freo112]

Yeah I get where you're going with the first bit. Obviously 2012 we can quite happily attribute to everyone getting on the page.

So it's a Ross angle then, that's fine. But I am genuinely still a bit miffed as to what you're actually wanting. It's pretty clear from the results in the latter half of 2015, and the two years after, that the side is cooked. So I guess my question is do you largely attribute that to the list or the coach? I think it is both, but mainly the list. We've quite obviously had a bunch of all-time greats and some pretty handy support players retire or be moved on.

The side was cooked because no attempt was made to plan for the future or manage a list during a season. Richmond played 8 players with under 50 games on the weekend. North played 7 players. West Coast have debuted 6 or 7 players and are 10-1. It is possible to introduce young players into your side and be competitive.

Then in 2016 when Lyon had a golden opportunity to shed veteran fringe players since it was a lost season from early on, he chose to play veteran fringe players rather than simply rip the bandaid off. Mayne played 22 games in 2016, Dawson played 18, Pearce 22 games. Could have pumped some of those games into young players rather than veterans barely (if acutally) in our best 22.

 

[rgauci]

It's interesting. Not many coaches get given this second life that Ross has got. Seems like most either start essentially at the beginning (build their own team) or like Ross get given an objective to get the team over the final hump and then fall on their sword if they don't get there.

Maybe I'm wrong but I can't really think of any examples from the 2nd group that are kept on and successfully rebuild their teams to challenge again. I think right now we might be seeing why. Too much 'baggage' (like defensive/negative football, not playing youth etc etc) from the first period dragging on the rebuild that wouldn't be around if the rebuild was done under a different coach. Not sure people would be as critical as they are of the team/coach if Caracella for example was here playing a defensive/safe style with 13 guys under 50 out there.

The present isn't always reflective of history of course but personally I think it's quite a struggle for Ross atm.

Collingwood with Malthouse

 

[Joao]

Edit: nevermind.

 

[Rion]

Collingwood with Malthouse

He probably escaped the worst of it considering the team wasn't actually bad for that long but yeah that's a good example.

 

[Kenyan]

The inability to recruit an 'a grade' key forward, someone to lead Taberner, McCarthy and to a lesser degree Kersten and Cox has really hurt the potency of the forward line and the balance of the team. Walters is an absolute star and would kick 50 goals if playing permanently forward in a team with the addition of a Josh Kennedy/Hogan/Lynch etc. I think they recruited very well in terms of defence players AP, Wilson, Ryan etc
Desperately need a Hogan type player.

,

 

[tonygeeks]

He probably escaped the worst of it considering the team wasn't actually bad for that long but yeah that's a good example.

He also had a couple of flags on his CV and I never really heard of him being criticised for a lack of development or reticence to overhaul his teams


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FreoMonocle]

Kind of hard to overhaul the team with the worse picks you get from being successful instead of the good picks from being crap. Unless you have a COLA, Father/sons in the bank or are just destination central like the Hawks, they do give you a leg up.

Going to be really pissed if the AFL don't let us get our F/S this year, the spirit of the law is well and truly there, just not the letter of the law by 2 games (and harsher terms and conditions to the general standard).

 

[Dirty_banchez]

How long did you work under him?

I left after receiving a hefty payout for being far too good looking.

 

[eastfreo75]

This is the third year in the bottom 6.

If next year we are out of the bottom 6, Lyon should keep his job. Otherwise, get Sam Mitchell.

 

[Freo112]

Kind of hard to overhaul the team with the worse picks you get from being successful instead of the good picks from being crap. Unless you have a COLA, Father/sons in the bank or are just destination central like the Hawks, they do give you a leg up.

Going to be really pissed if the AFL don't let us get our F/S this year, the spirit of the law is well and truly there, just not the letter of the law by 2 games (and harsher terms and conditions to the general standard).

Fremantle's had Brad Hill, Hamling, Wilson fall in their lap in the past two offseasons. These guys will be playing for the club for the next 10 years. What more do you want?

Not to mention Matera (who is an improvement on Ballantyne). McCarthy and Kersten haven't worked out but Kersten was the set of steak knives and the club can wear some blame for not being able to develop and utilise McCarthy more effectively. I can't believe Tabs struggled to get a consistent game last year while McCarthy was and still is an automatic starter.

Either way, to get Brad Hill, Hamling and Wilson in the past two offseasons means Fremantle have come out way in front even if Matera, McCarthy and Kersten are busts.

 

[Freo112]

The inability to recruit an 'a grade' key forward, someone to lead Taberner, McCarthy and to a lesser degree Kersten and Cox has really hurt the potency of the forward line and the balance of the team. Walters is an absolute star and would kick 50 goals if playing permanently forward in a team with the addition of a Josh Kennedy/Hogan/Lynch etc. I think they recruited very well in terms of defence players AP, Wilson, Ryan etc
Desperately need a Hogan type player.

,

Look, Fremantle under Lyon struggled in attack even back in 2012 when Pavlich was a 30 year old. They were 12th in attack that year. Team had been 4th in 2010 under Harvey.

Even 2013 when they made the Grand Final with Pav still only 31 and Mayne in the form of his life Fremantle were 11th in attack.

It's been a hallmark of Lyon teams that they are low scoring.

Lyon had Riewoldt at his peak and Pavlich in his prime yet his teams struggled to score.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Fremantle's had Brad Hill, Hamling, Wilson fall in their lap in the past two offseasons. These guys will be playing for the club for the next 10 years. What more do you want?

Not to mention Matera (who is an improvement on Ballantyne). McCarthy and Kersten haven't worked out but Kersten was the set of steak knives and the club can wear some blame for not being able to develop and utilise McCarthy more effectively. I can't believe Tabs struggled to get a consistent game last year while McCarthy was and still is an automatic starter.

Either way, to get Brad Hill, Hamling and Wilson in the past two offseasons means Fremantle have come out way in front even if Matera, McCarthy and Kersten are busts.

Traded - players and picks in/players and picks out. Free agents or extremely cheap picks out of Academies (changed at least) or Father/Sons is a different kettle of fish.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Look, Fremantle under Lyon struggled in attack even back in 2012 when Pavlich was a 30 year old. They were 12th in attack that year. Team had been 4th in 2010 under Harvey.

Even 2013 when they made the Grand Final with Pav still only 31 and Mayne in the form of his life Fremantle were 11th in attack.

It's been a hallmark of Lyon teams that they are low scoring.

Are you sure? 3 points more and it would have been a 100 average, 4th highest for that season, overwhelming on percentage because it was coupled with a nightmare defence, won 19 games in a row.

2009 AFL Ladder
Team P W L D PF PA % Pts
1 St Kilda 22 20 2 0 2197 1411 155.71 80
2 Geelong (P) 22 18 4 0 2312 1815 127.38 72
3 Western Bulldogs 22 15 7 0 2378 1940 122.58 60
4 Collingwood 22 15 7 0 2174 1778 122.27 60
5 Adelaide 22 14 8 0 2104 1789 117.61 56
6 Brisbane Lions 22 13 8 1 2017 1890 106.72 54
7 Carlton 22 13 9 0 2270 2055 110.46 52
8 Essendon 22 10 11 1 2080 2127 97.79 42


There aren't many teams that don't play at least 2 talls (and back then, 2 talls and a resting ruck). So, yes it's true that we didn't score highly in our contending years, but in our GF year, it was a tall in Pav and a medium (Mayne) with a resting ruck, we were eventually trying to throw Tabs/Ape/APearce up there, but 18-20 year old talls are woefully under standard, they take years to develop, so 1 tall and an apprentice instead of 2 talls.

 

[ShockersBoy11]

If we get rid of Lyon ever, get Caracella or Longmuir. Two best options

 

[PurpleEyes]

Look, Fremantle under Lyon struggled in attack even back in 2012 when Pavlich was a 30 year old. They were 12th in attack that year. Team had been 4th in 2010 under Harvey.

Even 2013 when they made the Grand Final with Pav still only 31 and Mayne in the form of his life Fremantle were 11th in attack.

It's been a hallmark of Lyon teams that they are low scoring.

Lyon had Riewoldt at his peak and Pavlich in his prime yet his teams struggled to score.

Longmire is a defensive coach like Lyon.
Clarkson is more an attacking coach.
Both have been very successful over long periods.
If you look at history, the most successful teams are generally one or the other or both.

St Kilda was most successful when Lyon coached them defensively ... like Fremantle.

It is generally accepted that finals football requires a good defensive game plan.
The worst ranked teams (since 2000) defensively (using Home & Away points For & Against to rank) to win a premiership was Brisbane in 2001 ranked 6th and Hawthorn in 2014 also ranked 6th.
But in 2005 Sydney won the Premiership ranked 14th offensively (2nd defensively), the Western Bulldogs in 2015 ranked 12th offensively (3rd defensively) and Richmond in 2017 ranked 8th offensively (3rd defensively).

The modern game, as recently demonstrated by both Richmond and the Western Bulldogs is won by a good defensive game plan that can transition and capitalise on turnovers. Lyon understands this very well. The problem he currently has is training his young side to reduce turnovers and to transition quickly enough and efficiently enough when turnovers occur. He spoke about this in his last post match media conference. Look at Richmond and the tracker stats for some of their players each week to get an idea of how well they quickly transition into attack on turnovers. Sadly, the Slime also do this very well. It is what makes Kennedy such a dangerous Forward.

I find most RTB haters just don't like the aspect of a defensive game plan. They were very much brainwashed in 2015 by the media and the "Fremantle can't kick 100 points so can't win the premiership" fake news. If you appreciate the value of a defensive game plan (as I do) then you understand RTB and his methods of coaching. If you wish for an attacking game plan (and success) then I just don't think RTB is going to give you that. It's just not in his DNA and when he has tried (eg. start of 2016) the results were worse (a ridiculous increase in opposition scoring from turnovers).

 

[Block 322]

Brett Kirk

 

[PurpleEyes]

Look, Fremantle under Lyon struggled in attack even back in 2012 when Pavlich was a 30 year old. They were 12th in attack that year. Team had been 4th in 2010 under Harvey.

Using 2010 as an example can be used against your argument.

In 2010, Harvey with Fremantle ended 6th on the ladder. Ranked 4th in attack but a poor 10th in defense. Freo were knocked out in the Semi Finals.
Meanwhile, under Lyon St Kilda ended 3rd on the ladder. Ranked 8th in attack but 1st in defense. They missed winning the premiership by one kick.

Again, supporting the argument that finals footy requires a defensive game plan.

 

[Freo112]

Are you sure? 3 points more and it would have been a 100 average, 4th highest for that season, overwhelming on percentage because it was coupled with a nightmare defence, won 19 games in a row.

2009 AFL Ladder
Team P W L D PF PA % Pts
1 St Kilda 22 20 2 0 2197 1411 155.71 80
2 Geelong (P) 22 18 4 0 2312 1815 127.38 72
3 Western Bulldogs 22 15 7 0 2378 1940 122.58 60
4 Collingwood 22 15 7 0 2174 1778 122.27 60
5 Adelaide 22 14 8 0 2104 1789 117.61 56
6 Brisbane Lions 22 13 8 1 2017 1890 106.72 54
7 Carlton 22 13 9 0 2270 2055 110.46 52
8 Essendon 22 10 11 1 2080 2127 97.79 42


There aren't many teams that don't play at least 2 talls (and back then, 2 talls and a resting ruck). So, yes it's true that we didn't score highly in our contending years, but in our GF year, it was a tall in Pav and a medium (Mayne) with a resting ruck, we were eventually trying to throw Tabs/Ape/APearce up there, but 18-20 year old talls are woefully under standard, they take years to develop, so 1 tall and an apprentice instead of 2 talls.

Walters kicked 46 goals in 2013, Ballantyne 34 goals. Pavlich still in his prime. Mayne in the form of his life. Yet the team was 11th in the league for attack.

In 2013, the team was 15th in the league for inside 50's. 11th for scoring. That's game plan. You can't be a strong scoring team if the ball isn't going into the forward line.

2009 was an outlier for Lyon. One good year with a great forward line is the exception not the rule. Riewoldt was best or close to best player in the league 2009, Milne at his peak (one of the best small forwards ever), Koschitzke was primarily forward. Still didn't kick more than 80 points in three finals.