No Oppo Supporters Non Bulldog Footy Talk - Bulldogs only - Part 2

[Igloo]

That's enough now. As has been pointed out, this is a football related thread.

 

[ScragCity]

Lets talk about Footy!!!!!!


How good is footy?!


Cant wait til it start back up again. I love watching the players kick the ball and doing marks and stuff its fun.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Not commenting on Hird's medical or mental state. But the origins of the last 4 years of the saga is in decisions where a certain J Hird had a large (if not the largest) say. The point where we are now in the football industry was instigated by a group of people recruited and / or directed by J Hird. The official media and social media came into the picture after the fact. When decisions were made at Essendon at the time, there was no input from Caroline Wilson, Andrew Demetriou, Gillon McLachlan, or any of the other perceived bad guys. They have since played their roles based on actions and decisions made by Essendon insiders. Blaming any sort of media for where the football world and the various actors now find themselves is like starting to watch a movie or read a book halfway through.

 

[geoffjennings79]

More importantly, does anyone know who the AFL luminary is on "I'm a celebrity..." this year? Description sounds like Aker - another person who blames everyone else!

 

[hujsh]

Personal responsibility is a fairly straight forward concept.
I know I probably see things a little too simplisticly. But the lines are continually blurred by interest groups.
As an example why should we call drug addiction an illness ? Call it what it is.
Why it is so prevalent is a totally different conversation.
Our generation is not better. Not for one moment do I think that.
I have all the empathy in the world for those that want to make a worthwhile contribution to society .

The choice to use drugs is a choice but one that may be made in understandable circumstances. EG if I were homesless I dare say I'd like the escape for a bit

But once you're addicted I don't think it's so simple that you can just make a choice to take personal responsibility. These are substances that change the way your brain works that people respond to in varying degrees. Maybe illness isn't the best word, I genuinely don't know, but I think it's more complex than just a need to take personal responsibility.

 

[immortalmike]

The choice to use drugs is a choice but one that may be made in understandable circumstances. EG if I were homesless I dare say I'd like the escape for a bit

But once you're addicted I don't think it's so simple that you can just make a choice to take personal responsibility. These are substances that change the way your brain works that people respond to in varying degrees. Maybe illness isn't the best word, I genuinely don't know, but I think it's more complex than just a need to take personal responsibility.

The choice to take certain drugs is one of personal responsibility. The addiction thereafter is an illness. There's enough evidence about the way people's brain chemistry is changed for that not to be too controversial a statement.

 

[Yojimbo]

The conversations of the last few days have been very
good and i for one love diverse opinions, but to morph
it to a football nature i would like to know was anyone
else remotely shocked by some of the severe injuries
some of our players carried through the whole final
series. Primarily Dale Morris (Fractured back) and
Easton Wood (Ankle) does it raise the issue of the
influence of pain killers. I am glad we won because
these two must have endured a fair degree of agony
and truly earned their premiership medals. Had we
lost however i am not so sure how i would feel given
we carried some very injured players into a grand
final, i guess as we won we don't have to consider
the game from a losers point of view.

 

[King Harold]

The choice to use drugs is a choice but one that may be made in understandable circumstances. EG if I were homesless I dare say I'd like the escape for a bit

But once you're addicted I don't think it's so simple that you can just make a choice to take personal responsibility. These are substances that change the way your brain works that people respond to in varying degrees. Maybe illness isn't the best word, I genuinely don't know, but I think it's more complex than just a need to take personal responsibility.

I will say it again , as it seems to have been missed , we absolutely need to support and help those that fallen on hard times for all sorts of reasons. We don't have any choice anyway , but it is society's responsibility.
I am talking about the ever increasing number of people that seem to want these " alternative" lifestyles as opposed to my mates that fronted up to a foundry everyday to put food on the table.
You blokes say my thinking is a generational thing ?
Maybe it is , so let's continue on the way we are going now and employ more and more police , social workers and what ever it takes to keep them all going.
How many more resources to we throw at a Cousins situation ?
Hope he dosn't kill someone before it is all over for him .

 

[King Harold]

The choice to take certain drugs is one of personal responsibility. The addiction thereafter is an illness. There's enough evidence about the way people's brain chemistry is changed for that not to be too controversial a statement.

I think you and me have disagreed on this before Immortal.
It must be a generational thing as has been pointed out.
In my time an alcoholic was just that , don't ever remember them being described as ill.

 

[Mattdougie]

It's unfortunate that the opposing views on these types of issues are almost always drawn on generational lines and always will be.



The reality is that the decisions at your child's school are made by people (principal, senior staff) that you would term your own class (middle aged or older, suburban), as opposed to some 30 year old guy with a white collar job in the city.

Australian politics still panders to the sort of people that think refugees are "illegal immigrants" that should be locked up and that marriage equality is a hot button topic that needs a referendum.

I'm not trying to lump you in with those people on those issues or suggest you have those opinions, but I'd suggest a lot of those people, that dictate the policy on massive social issues, would share your views on mental health and "PC has gone mad". If PC do gooders were guiding the agendas and thoughts of the country, like you're saying, Australian politics and policy would look very different.

I appreciate the response

The decisions at my child's school whether I agree with them or not would never have been an issue if they were consistent. To teach Christian religion as a topic and then not recognise Xmas or Easter is baffling to me and screams of pandering to the minority. What the simpletons have missed is my daughter was allowed to wear all colours head bands through out the year and it only became an issue at Xmas time. Try explaining to a 7 year old why she couldn't do something because she was excited she was permitted to do all year?

I have many gay friends and it's interesting to know that marriage equality is a huge issue for some them but others really couldn't care. Personally if they wish to marry then all power to anyone that wishes to take that bullet

Refugees. The single biggest issue in this country today. I don't think any reasonable human would ever deny a legitimate refugee entry to any country. While poorly expressed I believe the issue is whether or not many of these people are seeking asylum or they are indeed "economical refugees". Unfortunately in this harsh world seeking a better economical situation is not a legitimate refugee status and we have many many people here already who require a better economical situation. So again my personal opinion is legitimate asylum seekers should be given all the help they can to move to a safe haven but I do believe that safe haven should be as close to their "homes" as possible. Refugees should always aspire to return to their countries of origin one day when hopefully they can but obviously as time witness they will find the country of safety their new homes and may wish to stay.

With the influx of asylum seekers through out the world Economical refugees unfortunately must accept the hand they have been dealt. Harsh but there is only a certain amount of people each nation and should have to accept.

The ultimate goal is to solve the issues so everyone can stay in safety in their own countries and this world can rid itself of the single biggest issue .....

Anyway back to footy

The plastics are cr@p and lol norf

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Not commenting on Hird's medical or mental state. But the origins of the last 4 years of the saga is in decisions where a certain J Hird had a large (if not the largest) say. The point where we are now in the football industry was instigated by a group of people recruited and / or directed by J Hird. The official media and social media came into the picture after the fact. When decisions were made at Essendon at the time, there was no input from Caroline Wilson, Andrew Demetriou, Gillon McLachlan, or any of the other perceived bad guys. They have since played their roles based on actions and decisions made by Essendon insiders. Blaming any sort of media for where the football world and the various actors now find themselves is like starting to watch a movie or read a book halfway through.

I don't think they blame the media for what happened. They blame the media for the public perception, which is largely inaccurate.

Reading comments here about the whole saga is like reading a print version of A Current Affair. No body stops to ask why so many in the know support the players. They listen to media and social media commentary, and then bash on a club they don't like.

 

[TiAn_]

I will say it again , as it seems to have been missed , we absolutely need to support and help those that fallen on hard times for all sorts of reasons. We don't have any choice anyway , but it is society's responsibility.
I am talking about the ever increasing number of people that seem to want these " alternative" lifestyles as opposed to my mates that fronted up to a foundry everyday to put food on the table.
You blokes say my thinking is a generational thing ?
Maybe it is , so let's continue on the way we are going now and employ more and more police , social workers and what ever it takes to keep them all going.
How many more resources to we throw at a Cousins situation ?
Hope he dosn't kill someone before it is all over for him .

A lot of lifestyles are alternative to working in a foundry. What are you referring to?

 

[Freshwater]

We will all have to watch how we treat our premiership 'heroes'. They are not really heroes. Some have done some heroic acts. To help a struggling club to a premiership maybe heroic.
James was treated like he was some sort of war hero or had cured cancer etc. Then when he fails, which was inevitable at some point, he didn't have the coping mechanisms to deal with that failure. He denied, then shifted blame, but never did seem to look at himself and wonder "did I put my men/boys in some potentially serious danger?" and then wants the easy way out when he can't accept his own humanness. I hope he has some honest people around him and they help by being honest with him.

 

[King Harold]

A lot of lifestyles are alternative to working in a foundry. What are you referring to?

I think I am starting to bore everyone to death.
I let you work that one out TiAn.

When's training start again ?

 

[Dav1d]

I think you and me have disagreed on this before Immortal.
It must be a generational thing as has been pointed out.
In my time an alcoholic was just that , don't ever remember them being described as ill.

In another time they treated burns with butter!

I overheard an elderly lady once talking about how there is a lot more crimes these days then when she was a child, I'm not sure if that is statistically true or false but there are things like security cameras now days which would not have been around when she was a kid.

Football tactics have changed, football rules have changed, time is constantly changing

 

[King Harold]

In another time they treated burns with butter!

I overheard an elderly lady once talking about how there is a lot more crimes these days then when she was a child, I'm not sure if that is statistically true or false but there are things like security cameras now days which would not have been around when she was a kid.

Football tactics have changed, football rules have changed, time is constantly changing

I got badly burned on the arm with boiling soup as a child ,
One guess as to how my Auntie treated me !

 

[Dav1d]

I got badly burned on the arm with boiling soup as a child ,
One guess as to how my Auntie treated me !

That sounds really painful, sorry to hear.
Speaking of childhood though; I can't imagine what James Hirds children are going through at the moment.

 

[maddog37]

Not commenting on Hird's medical or mental state. But the origins of the last 4 years of the saga is in decisions where a certain J Hird had a large (if not the largest) say. The point where we are now in the football industry was instigated by a group of people recruited and / or directed by J Hird. The official media and social media came into the picture after the fact. When decisions were made at Essendon at the time, there was no input from Caroline Wilson, Andrew Demetriou, Gillon McLachlan, or any of the other perceived bad guys. They have since played their roles based on actions and decisions made by Essendon insiders. Blaming any sort of media for where the football world and the various actors now find themselves is like starting to watch a movie or read a book halfway through.

Good post. The constant reshaping of who the victims in this saga really are is strongly and loudly led by a few in the media that have emotions influencing their output.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

The conversations of the last few days have been very
good and i for one love diverse opinions, but to morph
it to a football nature i would like to know was anyone
else remotely shocked by some of the severe injuries
some of our players carried through the whole final
series. Primarily Dale Morris (Fractured back) and
Easton Wood (Ankle) does it raise the issue of the
influence of pain killers. I am glad we won because
these two must have endured a fair degree of agony
and truly earned their premiership medals. Had we
lost however i am not so sure how i would feel given
we carried some very injured players into a grand
final, i guess as we won we don't have to consider
the game from a losers point of view.

No doubt there would've been players in other finals sides who carried varying degrees of injury, too.

Their stories rarely see the light of day, so we, and their supporters, will never know how they will be affected in the long term.

Much easier to cope with when there's a premiership medal hanging around your neck!

 

[Yojimbo]

No doubt there would've been players in other finals sides who carried varying degrees of injury, too.

Their stories rarely see the light of day, so we, and their supporters, will never know how they will be affected in the long term.

Much easier to cope with when there's a premiership medal hanging around your neck!

Very true.

 

[BRWB]

Good post. The constant reshaping of who the victims in this saga really are is strongly and loudly led by a few in the media that have emotions influencing their output.

Good point.

There are a lot of people who've had bad stuff happen to them after the drugs saga on all sides. Many of whom have contributed to their own problems.

The only blameless victims who did nothing but support footy by paying for memberships, Fox Footy, merchandise, etc - are the paying football fan (including EFC fans). The other blameless victims are the people working at the other 17 footy clubs.

Both groups have been defrauded by EFC's doping regime which tried to make a mockery of a 'competition'. The two most obvious victims are Mitchell and Cotchin who have lost out financially and due recognition due to Watson fraudulently winning the Brownlow.

I find it interesting how much attention there is for the woes of Hird, one of the main players who perpetrated this fraud on the other 17 clubs and the footy public.

Meanwhile the young guy Hird was meant to take care of, Hal Hunter, is apparently still depressed and still doesn't know what he was injected with.

Seems arse about to me.

 

[Mattdougie]

Good point.

There are a lot of people who've had bad stuff happen to them after the drugs saga on all sides. Many of whom have contributed to their own problems.

The only blameless victims who did nothing but support footy by paying for memberships, Fox Footy, merchandise, etc - are the paying football fan (including EFC fans). The other blameless victims are the people working at the other 17 footy clubs.

Both groups have been defrauded by EFC's doping regime which tried to make a mockery of a 'competition'. The two most obvious victims are Mitchell and Cotchin who have lost out financially and due recognition due to Watson fraudulently winning the Brownlow.

I find it interesting how much attention there is for the woes of Hird, one of the main players who perpetrated this fraud on the other 17 clubs and the footy public.

Meanwhile the young guy Hird was meant to take care of, Hal Hunter, is apparently still depressed and still doesn't know what he was injected with.

Seems arse about to me.

Do we now honestly think the players don't know what they took?

I know if I was at a club and they filled with me donkey spit and whale blood no amount of money would make me stay at the club. The ones who wanted out used it as a way to remove themselves but the majority stayed and to me personally that tells me they had a fair idea what they took.

 

[BRWB]

Do we now honestly think the players don't know what they took?

I know if I was at a club and they filled with me donkey spit and whale blood no amount of money would make me stay at the club. The ones who wanted out used it as a way to remove themselves but the majority stayed and to me personally that tells me they had a fair idea what they took.

I think the players know what they were told they were given. Hunter isn't sure that is true.

And given most of the players' failure to disclose what they were told they were given to ADADA they are not blameless.

So IMO Hunter is a victim just not a blameless victim.

But relative to Hird - Hunter is a cleanskin.

Fine distinction I know.

 

[Mattdougie]

I think the players know what they were told they were given. Hunter isn't sure that is true.

And given most of the players' failure to disclose what they were told they were given to ADADA they are not blameless.

So IMO Hunter is a victim just not a blameless victim.

But relative to Hird - Hunter is a cleanskin.

Fine distinction I know.

I agree and I wasn't trying to compare Hunter to Hird. Hird was the orchestrator of the whole thing and attempted to use the "I didn't see a thing" defence.

I find it amusing people have sympathy for the players. No matter who you are after the 100th injection surely you would ask at least once what they we're putting into your body with such frequency.

Also the peak in their play is no coincidence. The whole thing smells and I personally think they got off lightly.

When you compare them to Saad the players got off very lightly

 

[hujsh]

I appreciate the response

The decisions at my child's school whether I agree with them or not would never have been an issue if they were consistent. To teach Christian religion as a topic and then not recognise Xmas or Easter is baffling to me and screams of pandering to the minority. What the simpletons have missed is my daughter was allowed to wear all colours head bands through out the year and it only became an issue at Xmas time. Try explaining to a 7 year old why she couldn't do something because she was excited she was permitted to do all year?

Teaching the religion as an exercise in theology is fine I guess (though I'd imagine it's part of the Curriculum rather than an administrative decision and was likely introduced by the Coalition once they got back in power) but I don't think that has any correlation on whether they celebrate Easter or Christmas. If they go down that road I think they have to celebrate everyone's holidays.

I agree they appear to lack consistency with the ribbons based on what you're written but that sounds about par for the course with the schools I went to.

Refugees. The single biggest issue in this country today. I don't think any reasonable human would ever deny a legitimate refugee entry to any country. While poorly expressed I believe the issue is whether or not many of these people are seeking asylum or they are indeed "economical refugees". Unfortunately in this harsh world seeking a better economical situation is not a legitimate refugee status and we have many many people here already who require a better economical situation. So again my personal opinion is legitimate asylum seekers should be given all the help they can to move to a safe haven but I do believe that safe haven should be as close to their "homes" as possible. Refugees should always aspire to return to their countries of origin one day when hopefully they can but obviously as time witness they will find the country of safety their new homes and may wish to stay.

I wouldn't risk my family's life and well being to be a minority citizen in a country that doesn't speak my native language and is rather hostile to my religion just to be better off financially.

If you've got the money to be an economic refugee and no other motivation to leave you'd just stay home.

And the countries closest to those they're fleeing a) probably have less ability to care for them (in terms of resources and the economic support) and b) probably shouldn't have to shoulder all the burden from a humanitarian crisis. Though I believe Jordan has taken millions of Syrian refugees which is remarkable considering the size of the country. A great effort that puts us the US and Europe to shame.

I also don't think relocating twice (especially if you have kids who have grown up in Australia and identify as Australians) is something we should be coercing people to do.