Observations on internal issues?

[DesertRoo]

The failure may have been the result of good intentions gone wrong from the board level.

They might've been too respectful of not meddling at a football level. To the point they just trusted the feedback from Joyce and Scott on club direction rather than using their own eyes. Even Archer made a comment when he was on the board about never questioning the coach because it's such a tough job. Nice sentiment but probably not the rigour you need in a very competitive pursuit.

Similarly club boards have often been criticised for being too jumpy and under-rating stability. Cue over-corrections like blindly giving new coaches 5 year deals - Frawley, Wallace et al. The club re-signing Scott in 2017 was probably seen as a cool headed strategic move internally, not being swayed by "short-term" failure and giving the group and future prospects a facade of a strong, stable club headed the right way.

In the end it just created an illusion that nobody fell for and kept a coach in place who'd had long enough to take the list through build, deliver, rebuild phases.

I think you’re probably right here, the club favoured stability over any thing else.
Hell it got us to the point we are in today great list, no debt, new facilities, own vfl team, women’s team, growth in members and revenue.

All of these things happened while Scott was coach can fault him in that regard. I don’t think people remember the basket case when he took over.

The only problem was he was never going to take us any further then middle of the road. That’s why Carlton or St Kilda should be sounding him out. You’ve gotta walk before you run.

 

[Snake_Baker]

They might've been too respectful of not meddling at a football level.

Perhaps, but they are negligent in their ultimate duty if they do this.

It's the only reason they exist.

I won't hear any of this on field/off field crap. It's an absurdity.

 

[King Corey]

Perhaps, but they are negligent in their ultimate duty if they do this.

It's the only reason they exist.

I won't hear any of this on field/off field crap. It's an absurdity.

Don't think the off-field stuff was the major factor mate. Clubs like Hawthorn and Collingwood can cherry-pick high profile successful bandwagoners to be involved at board level. Unless we're lucky enough to have a Richard Branson who happened to BFNAAK emerge, it looks like we've had to scour for people with particular skillsets but some with very tenuous connections to football.

I don't think it's necessarily tokenism but rather trying to have a balanced board. As a result as above I wonder if board members have not wanted to stick their noses where they're not wanted (football department) and show their ignorance so have allowed this whole situation to fester.

Installing some decent governance within the football department might salvage the situation and leave the board to hold the club together as a greater entity.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Installing some decent governance within the football department might salvage the situation and leave the board to hold the club together as a greater entity.

This "installation" is being conducted by predominately non football people, which is where this issue arises in the first place.

The board itself is lacking football control.

 

[Event Horizon]

The club re-signing Scott in 2017 was probably seen as a cool headed strategic move internally, not being swayed by "short-term" failure and giving the group and future prospects a facade of a strong, stable club headed the right way.

That extension wasn't looking too bad at the end of 2018, to be fair. But clearly, we can now see the change WAS needed and in some ways it could prove as a stroke of luck that this year went so horribly wrong. If we managed to beat Brisbane and Hawthorn (and Sydney) Scott and Joyce would still be here next season, despite us finishing on around 11/12 wins and going nowhere.

 

[shintemaster]

That extension wasn't looking too bad at the end of 2018, to be fair. But clearly, we can now see the change WAS needed and in some ways it could prove as a stroke of luck that this year went so horribly wrong. If we managed to beat Brisbane and Hawthorn (and Sydney) Scott and Joyce would still be here next season, despite us finishing on around 11/12 wins and going nowhere.

The only sensible way to look at it now IMO. I'm with you in that I'm glad the end was quickened this year - irrespective of whether we should hypothetically have not been in this position to start with. Sometimes you do need to stare down the barrel to know what is at stake.

 

[King Corey]

All of these things happened while Scott was coach can fault him in that regard. I don’t think people remember the basket case when he took over.

This comes up a bit - do you mean on or off-field?

Off-field the new facilities were underway. On-field you had a unit that had played in 3 of the past 5 finals series including a top 4 H&A finish.

I don't think he was particularly hampered by the ingredients he inherited, no more than any other coach.

 

[Event Horizon]

Sometimes you do need to stare down the barrel to know what is at stake.

100%. But it still goes to show how fine the margin is in AFL footy - even with the club football department making huge errors going into the season, we lead both Brisbane and Hawthorn deep in the third quarter and were right in it going into the last quarters, while completely dominated Sydney for three quarters. Had we won those, we'd be seating at 8:5 rather than 5:8 and nothing would have changed.

 

[King Corey]

The people in charge of the club are "faceless people" who have left Brad in charge

They questioned the recruitment of certain players

Coach has too much power and is close with "afl heavyweights". Top end of the club too scared to question him.

Ex Tough North people don't want a bare of him

These points in particular in scooby's original post have now been largely vindicated.

Kudos to the board for turning around the 1st point.

 

[DesertRoo]

This comes up a bit - do you mean on or off-field?

Off-field the new facilities were underway. On-field you had a unit that had played in 3 of the past 5 finals series including a top 4 H&A finish.

I don't think he was particularly hampered by the ingredients he inherited, no more than any other coach.

On field we were a group of bit part players with a couple of aging stars. We had a coach that would’ve milked them for all they’re worth.
Similar position to what the hawks are in now. Accept we didn’t have he off field training facilities they have now.
We just came off the relocation thing, where players had no idea where they’ll end up the next year or two.

Sometimes you need stability,
He gave us that, we weren’t that bad over his period and I’m glad we didn’t go down the Carlton quick fix solution. Otherwise we would’ve gutted the list four times and thought we had a saviour coach another two times.

We really now are ready to compete..

 

[Rad Roo]

the changes have been what i said a while back, drafting and player development are the two major deficiencies. We recruit FA well but that is only because we have massive holes from the players we have drafted and not properly developed.

 

[ferball]

100%. But it still goes to show how fine the margin is in AFL footy - even with the club football department making huge errors going into the season, we lead both Brisbane and Hawthorn deep in the third quarter and were right in it going into the last quarters, while completely dominated Sydney for three quarters. Had we won those, we'd be seating at 8:5 rather than 5:8 and nothing would have changed.

If that happened and we beat the Pies this weekend we'd be genuinely looking at making a good run at the top four over the last half of the season. Which is where we should be isn't it? The fact we aren't is why Scott is gone.

 

[Yoko and me]

the changes have been what i said a while back, drafting and player development are the two major deficiencies. We recruit FA well but that is only because we have massive holes from the players we have drafted and not properly developed.

Cam Joyce's fault? Sack the development coaches. The main one is sacked.
I think a dangerous Brisbane/Voss vacuum is open. Hopefully Shaw is kept on.
Doubt it though now he has relationships. Egotistical coaches have string jealousies.
There was never too much broken.
To throw everything up in the air seems absurd. It doesn't sound like cam Joyce was sacked. He has another offer. I would have tried to keep him for one more overlap year, but it seams now some dream team is the preferred (and silly imo) option. Must keep Shaw and Crocker. Tudor should go. We are not a franchise.

Looking forward to someone not coming in with an ego and wrecking a very competitive team.
Looking forward to TT, Simpkin, Brown, Larkey, and LDU etc wanting to stay one club players because they believe

 

[Rad Roo]

Joyce doesn't look like he can take us further, there are plenty of north people out in the industry at the moment, so getting them back in the rank can be a good thing. Scott was never a north person as he has never bought the north ethos. If longmire is back in the set up with carey on the outside with media support this could bring back another good old tendem.

This shake up will do wonder for the 2020 season. Shaw has already brought a lot of attacking element into our play. We just need some more explosive attack off half back line, perhaps we need to throw big dollar not at a Kelly, Congnilio or other mids but a half back like Saad. But with our existing list with natural development in the likes of Ahern, LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, Thomas, Zurhaar, there is your superstar core list of player to build the team around. We should continue to cherry pick and get Higgins, Polec like B grader and turn them into A graders. We have a very competitive list going into 2020, definitely can play finals. I have a gnawing sensation that Atley will realize his true potential, he always look like he has unleashed his true potential, if Atley can take it to the next level in 2020, we are flag contender. Thompson looks to be very fit and durable so he would stay for another year, Tarrant still at the top of his game for a couple more, if Daw get back to full fitness then we can shut down any key forward as in 2018 we were the least scored team by opp key forward. Our defensive weakness is our inability to stop the little blokes. Forward of centre, Brown and Woods will eventually be a top tier combo, Larkey forward ruck support. I differ in view towards Goldstien as i feel campbell might actually be the more physical ruckman who will give us the greater impact. Release Goldie to st kilda to release more cap to get the right players we need.

 

[Event Horizon]

If that happened and we beat the Pies this weekend we'd be genuinely looking at making a good run at the top four over the last half of the season. Which is where we should be isn't it? The fact we aren't is why Scott is gone.

Correct, but my point is, even if those results went our way, it wouldn't have changed the fact that Scott isn't as a good a coach as some in football world think, and he certainly has had ample time at North to be able to do anything, if he was good enough. I am happy that those results didn't go our way in the end, as it gives us a fresh start. Doesn't mean we won't make the same mistakes again, but I certainly hope we won't. Crucial stage in the club's history now - we either become another St Kilda - a club that has forgotten that it's in the comp to win flags. Or we go back to what we are about and push back into "relevance", as much as I hate this word.

 

[ferball]

Correct, but my point is, even if those results went our way, it wouldn't have changed the fact that Scott isn't as a good a coach as some in football world think, and he certainly has had ample time at North to be able to do anything, if he was good enough. I am happy that those results didn't go our way in the end, as it gives us a fresh start. Doesn't mean we won't make the same mistakes again, but I certainly hope we won't. Crucial stage in the club's history now - we either become another St Kilda - a club that has forgotten that it's in the comp to win flags. Or we go back to what we are about and push back into "relevance", as much as I hate this word.

But...

If Scott had achieved those results then he'd obviously be a better coach than he was. If he achieved those results then it wouldn't matter if he was still coach cos he'd be performing to an acceptable standard.

He was unlucky, isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be and had a shitful performance this year when he needed a good one. On the back of some real issues with the list via injuries (after finally getting some good balance into it) etc etc. Maj's incident probably destroyed whatever plans he had developed for this new season and he wasn't able to adjust in time. (Which is a consistent story with him.) Unfortunately for him he ran out of time and other people's patience.

But its been a thing with him. He was never lucky and that bad luck rubbed off on the team. Stuff always went against him.

 

[Event Horizon]

But its been a thing with him. He was never lucky and that bad luck rubbed off on the team. Stuff always went against him.

I don't believe in luck, when it comes to results over a long period of time. You may argue Beveridge was indeed "lucky" in 2016, after having a great run in September on the back of finishing 7th and having a week off for the first time, which other teams haven't used as well. And him missing the finals for the following 3 seasons might prove that theory to be correct. But you can't call Clarko lucky, as he's done it over a long period of time. Same goes with lack of success. When you've been there for 10 years, luck has nothing to do with it.

 

[Kimbo]

I don't think it's necessarily tokenism but rather trying to have a balanced board. As a result as above I wonder if board members have not wanted to stick their noses where they're not wanted (football department) and show their ignorance so have allowed this whole situation to fester.

Installing some decent governance within the football department might salvage the situation and leave the board to hold the club together as a greater entity.

"Noses in, fingers out" is the governance principle and a distinction many a board doesn't get. They either keep their noses out, thinking that that equates to fingers in (and don't want to meddle) or they put their fingers in, thinking that's noses in (and become interfering.)

 

[Event Horizon]

But...

If Scott had achieved those results then he'd obviously be a better coach than he was. If he achieved those results then it wouldn't matter if he was still coach cos he'd be performing to an acceptable standard.

I'd argue, if he achieved those results we'd still lose elsewhere (ie against the Dogs or the Suns) or would have failed in the finals, because he's proved over the period of 10 years that he wasn't capable of making the top 4 at the end of H&A season, and even if we managed "good 2 weeks" in September, he never looked likely to turn that into "good 4 weeks"

 

[ferball]

I'd argue, if he achieved those results we'd still lose elsewhere (ie against the Dogs or the Suns) or would have failed in the finals, because he's proved over the period of 10 years that he wasn't capable of making the top 4 at the end of H&A season, and even if we managed "good 2 weeks" in September, he never looked likely to turn that into "good 4 weeks"

Maybe. Looking back he never got it together.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

"Noses in, fingers out" is the governance principle and a distinction many a board doesn't get. They either keep their noses out, thinking that that equates to fingers in (and don't want to meddle) or they put their fingers in, thinking that's noses in (and become interfering.)

Funny, that's a placard on the wall at Tender Touch so I'm told.

 

[Kimbo]

Funny, that's a placard on the wall at Tender Touch so I'm told.

Your friends into...





...governance?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Gender quotas at work:

Retail billionaire Gerry Harvey, founder and chairman of the Harvey Norman chain, has blasted some of the custodians of the nation’s $2.8 trillion superannuation industry for their obsession with gender-diversity guidelines and “tick-a-box” mentality to corporate governance.

Mr Harvey said he was frustrated by super fund executives and their boards, so-called corporate governance experts and fellow travellers in the social corporate responsibility industry who were pressuring him to change his business practices, saying if he followed their guidelines Harvey Norman would “go backwards”. Rival retailers such as Myer and David Jones had slavishly adhered to the corporate governance orders laid down by these groups, he said, but their businesses were now paying the price, with his own Harvey Norman “beating the s**t out of them’’.

He said the nation’s two big department stores had diversity in the boardroom, with female directors and independent directors, but in most cases they weren’t even retailers.

“Myer and David Jones get all of that box ticking right according to corporate governance rules,’’ Mr Harvey said, “and super funds buy shares in them as they tick all the boxes.”

When asked about the pressure coming from super funds and corporate governance activists, Mr Harvey told The Weekend Australian: “I’ve never spoken to anyone yet that runs a public company, that started the public company, that doesn’t agree with me. Now I haven’t got any problem with these people having a view, but I’ve got the right to have a view too, and my argument is they are wrong and they don’t know they are wrong.

“They want me to toe the line … and that can be a big problem because they are not practical people. Our results speak for themselves over a period of 50 years.’’

Those results were on display yesterday when Harvey Norman posted a 7.2 per cent increase in full-year net profit to $402.32 million at a time when most retailers are struggling to grow profits.

David Jones on Thursday revealed its operating profit had almost halved to $37m.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

 

[Gasometer]

Gender quotas at work:

Retail billionaire Gerry Harvey, founder and chairman of the Harvey Norman chain, has blasted some of the custodians of the nation’s $2.8 trillion superannuation industry for their obsession with gender-diversity guidelines and “tick-a-box” mentality to corporate governance.

Mr Harvey said he was frustrated by super fund executives and their boards, so-called corporate governance experts and fellow travellers in the social corporate responsibility industry who were pressuring him to change his business practices, saying if he followed their guidelines Harvey Norman would “go backwards”. Rival retailers such as Myer and David Jones had slavishly adhered to the corporate governance orders laid down by these groups, he said, but their businesses were now paying the price, with his own Harvey Norman “beating the s**t out of them’’.

He said the nation’s two big department stores had diversity in the boardroom, with female directors and independent directors, but in most cases they weren’t even retailers.

“Myer and David Jones get all of that box ticking right according to corporate governance rules,’’ Mr Harvey said, “and super funds buy shares in them as they tick all the boxes.”

When asked about the pressure coming from super funds and corporate governance activists, Mr Harvey told The Weekend Australian: “I’ve never spoken to anyone yet that runs a public company, that started the public company, that doesn’t agree with me. Now I haven’t got any problem with these people having a view, but I’ve got the right to have a view too, and my argument is they are wrong and they don’t know they are wrong.

“They want me to toe the line … and that can be a big problem because they are not practical people. Our results speak for themselves over a period of 50 years.’’

Those results were on display yesterday when Harvey Norman posted a 7.2 per cent increase in full-year net profit to $402.32 million at a time when most retailers are struggling to grow profits.

David Jones on Thursday revealed its operating profit had almost halved to $37m.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Next Nmfc Chairman Gerry I am assuming Snake?

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's indulgent w***ery, put in place by a small group of political parasites who have set up shop within the club, and all paid for by YOU, the members.

Gender quota's are bullshit. They can only serve to weaken an organisation, and we're an organisation that needs to squeeze every advantage from anywhere we can find it.