Premiership players should not just be Grand Final participants

[greatwhiteshark]

That's because that culture (which is a bad culture) has been instilled. Culture is "learned behaviour". If you tell people something doesn't matter, that culture will seep through. You change the culture and you change learned behaviour by changing the rules and the way medals are awarded. This works, because in other sports, where you don't need to play in the last game to get a ring/medal, the players respect their ring/medal.

If you don't change a bad culture, nothing will change.

Who said they respect their ring or medal. When did you do this survey? Can you please present your survey and its official findings. Yiu are just guessing.

 

[Stabby McGee]

I 'won' a dirty trophy for being an emergency in a GF in 86. It's still sitting on the table at the venue. Why the hell would I want, or take pride in, something I had nothing to do with?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The premiership is a SEASON achievement. The player may not have contributed to the Grand Final win, but, of course has contributed to the other finals and/or home and away games, which needed to be won in order to make it to the Grand Final in the first place. Hence, they are a premiership player by definition if you acknoweldge the fact that a premiership is a season achievement, which it unquestionably is.

If you keep saying it then it doesn’t make it right. You just admitted it in the previous post that it’s the culture of our game. Only the players who contribute to winning that one particular game get a medal.
The club gets a cup and a pennant for winning the season premiership.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The premiership is a SEASON achievement. The player may not have contributed to the Grand Final win, but, of course has contributed to the other finals and/or home and away games, which needed to be won in order to make it to the Grand Final in the first place. Hence, they are a premiership player by definition if you acknoweldge the fact that a premiership is a season achievement, which it unquestionably is.

Maybe they could all get a replica premiership cup each or a flag each?
I honestly think the players don’t care.

 

[largebus]

That's because that culture (which is a bad culture) has been instilled. Culture is "learned behaviour". If you tell people something doesn't matter, that culture will seep through. You change the culture and you change learned behaviour by changing the rules and the way medals are awarded. This works, because in other sports, where you don't need to play in the last game to get a ring/medal, the players respect their ring/medal.

If you don't change a bad culture, nothing will change.

Reasons for not giving them medals: player who actually got a medal wanted nothing to do with it.

Reasons for giving them medals: Muh Bad Kulcha, with nothing back that up. You'd think supporters of certain club that got booted out of finals would know what bad culture actually is.

 

[Dan26]

Reasons for not giving them medals: player who actually got a medal wanted nothing to do with it.

That's because they've been told not to care, and they are not recognised or invited to premiership reunions etc. That can change, if you change the culture. And we know the culture can change because there are other sports where they award rings/medals to all players during the season and the players respect those awards. So we know it works.

Your argument is basically, "Well, that's just how it is in Aussie Rules, so yeah... whatever...I won't bother trying to fix it"

If something is bad, don't just accept it - FIX IT.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Neither the players (or fans) would consider themselves premiership players if they didn’t play on GF day. No point having them.

Imagine saying triple premiership captain Michael Voss but he was injured and never played in any of the GFs. I’m afraid to say he’d be ridiculed knowing Australian banter.

We did it with Cooney and he actually won a Brownlow, said earlier this year he’s embarrassed to be a Brownlow medalist cause he thinks he doesn’t deserve it. Would feel much worse saying it about a flag.

 

[largebus]

That's because they've been told not to care, and they are not recognised or invited to premiership reunions etc. That can change, if you change the culture. And we know the culture can change because there are other sports where they award rings/medals to all players during the season and the players respect those awards. So we know it works.

Your argument is basically, "Well, that's just how it is in Aussie Rules, so yeah... whatever...I won't bother trying to fix it"

If something is bad, don't just accept it - FIX IT.

Nothing but empty fact-free horseshit again.
You've said it's bad in about 3000 posts here but offered no reason why it's bad in any of them other than "they're told not to care". Pretty presumptuous, were you in the room when someone told Leon Davis that? He's said he gave his medal away cause he didn't feel like he wanted it, which is evidence to the contrary of anything you've said here.

 

[Dan26]

Nothing but empty fact-free horseshit again.
You've said it's bad in about 3000 posts here but offered no reason why it's bad in any of them other than "they're told not to care". Pretty presumptuous, were you in the room when someone told Leon Davis that? He's said he gave his medal away cause he didn't feel like he wanted it, which is evidence to the contrary of anything you've said here.

I don’t give a s**t what Leon Davis said or did in a single irrelevant anecdotal example. Anecdotal examples are for people who can’t frame arguments properly. I care about what’s right. We know in other sports where athletes are properly recognised with a ring/medal despite not playing in the last game, that they respect and cherish their medal. So we know that proper recognition works, because we have living breathing examples from other sports. The facts are that premierships are factually, unarguably and unambiguously season achievements, not one day achievements, and this clear fact should determine how we acknowledge premiership players. If you disagree and the best you can come up with are one-off anecdotes, then you simply don’t have the facts on your side.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I have no idea wtf this thread is about.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I don’t give a s**t what Leon Davis said or did in a single irrelevant anecdotal example. Anecdotal examples are for people who can’t frame arguments properly. I care about what’s right. We know in other sports where athletes are properly recognised with a ring/medal despite not playing in the last game, that they respect and cherish their medal. So we know that proper recognition works, because we have living breathing examples from other sports. The facts are that premierships are factually, unarguably and unambiguously season achievements, not one day achievements, and this clear fact should determine how we acknowledge premiership players. If you disagree and the best you can come up with are one-off anecdotes, then you simply don’t have the facts on your side.

And again where is this proof they cherish the ring or medal? Or is that they have always just got one so it’s part of their culture?
You reckon the player who never takes the court in 7 NBA finals series thinks he deserves a ring because he trained hard during the year, more than likely that ring would be pawned within a week.
You are still just guessing.

 

[eth-dog]

And again where is this proof they cherish the ring or medal? Or is that they have always just got one so it’s part of their culture?
You reckon the player who never takes the court in 7 NBA finals series thinks he deserves a ring because he trained hard during the year, more than likely that ring would be pawned within a week.
You are still just guessing.

A friend of a friend played the first game of the year on a MLB team that won the world series. He still has the ring in his cabinet.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

A friend of a friend played the first game of the year on a MLB team that won the world series. He still has the ring in his cabinet.

Wonder what Andrew Gaze thinks of his NBA Premiership ring, he wasn't even on the player roster for the Finals series. I don't reckon he speaks much about that ring. More embarressed than anything else. His NBL achievements is what he talks about and rightly so.

 

[blues4flag]

Pretty obvious. Build it and they will come. First season or two it might be ridiculed, but after a few years those against will be labelled as dinosaurs, and rightly so.

It's a slight shift in mentality. Right now, a premiership medal means a player who played on the day. Why can't that meaning change to a player who significantly contributed to the premiership (which is a season long achievement)?' I'd put a threshold on games played. Maybe 10, and/or being there on the day.

All the best teams are those that celebrate the squad. Takes more than 22 to win a premiership. It's time we celebrate those who missed contributed to the case.

 

[eth-dog]

Wonder what Andrew Gaze thinks of his NBA Premiership ring, he wasn't even on the player roster for the Finals series. I don't reckon he speaks much about that ring. More embarressed than anything else. His NBL achievements is what he talks about and rightly so.

So you completely change tack then? You asked for examples and were given one. Also I wouldn't have a clue, never met the guy. I'm sure he's proud to be part of that roster though.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

It’s utterly ridiculous and laughably out of date.

If you played for a premiership winning club then you contributed and you get a medal.

Players deserve it and many would treasure it, as they should.

The Grand Final is one game of 26 or 27. And plenty of them are farcical. Look at 2007, 2019 or 2022. They were over in the first 15-20 minutes, as many of them are. As if some player who ran around in that meaningless training run is more of a premiership player than somebody who busted a gut in another final or close home and away game.

It’s a culture from a bygone era, upheld by w***er “premiership players” trying to exclude others.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

In the AFL, we dearly like to hold on to traditions. Traditions are part of culture and identity. We feel a comfort and security being able to hold on to these mores, as we would hate to think that one day down the track, the great game we call the AFL will be hijacked by human-like aliens in 2050 and morphing it into some weird basket-soccer-gridiron version of football. In other words not just unrecognisable but completely and utterly dead. We hold on to traditions so dearly because we fear our mortality and that everything must be done preserve a semblance of ourselves, and in this case the great game VFL... I mean AFL, to following generations.

Unfortunately one must realise that change brings progress. Progress brings benefits. If I were able to bring some of you to a journey back in time, back when it was called the VFA, back when 10 goals a game was the norm, back when players like Lockett could not send their team through to a Grand Final by kicking a point because behinds did not count as scores and finals did not exist. Back when kicking it two meters meant it was a mark. Then you would realise that just hanging on to traditions for the mere reason they are traditions is not a valid argument.

At the moment we have a premiership paradox. One that is sustained by the notion of keeping with tradition. The premiership paradox will now be presented in its most extreme form.

We have two players. One is player A and the other player B. Both play at the same club.

Player A is gun. Player A if one of the best players and leaders in the league. In fact, Player A is the captain and leader one of the top 4 teams in the competition. When Player A came to the club they were at the bottom of the ladder. Player A has helped his team be one of the best teams in the league.

Player A this year has averaged 35 possessions and 4 goals a game as rover. The team of Player A has had a lot close games and he has been crucial in all of those games. In the finals, Player A has averaged 40 possessions and 7 goals, including the preliminary final. In the last seconds of the preliminary final, Player A's team is losing by 2 points. Player A as always does the most courage's thing, and runs back with the flight of the ball to mark 20meters directly in front. Although he kicks the winning goal and sends his team to a Grand Final, unknowingly to him, when he fell with the mark, his own ruckmen fell on him and broke his angle. The ruckmen also was injured in this case. This was the first and last time that Player A's team made the Grand Final. Player A will never be a premiership player.

Player B is not a gun. Actually Player B has been delisted 3 times from 3 different clubs in his career. Player B has played in the VFL all season as a back-up ruckmen. Player B has barely held his position in the VFL, but none the less he been the back-up ruckmen all season. Just before the finals most of the ruckmen of Player A and B's list have gone down with injury. Player B has had to play the lone ruckmen in the VFL and is not doing well on his own. His told at the end of the season he will most likely be delisted a 4th time. As fate would have it, the only other ruckmen gets injured in the preliminary final and now they are forced to play Player B.

Player B plays in the grand final. Player B is playing poorly. He is desperate to make amends and in the first few minutes he goes forward and tries to take a mark but knocks out the best forward on his team. The forward is out for the rest of the day. Player B gets up and realised he has twisted is ankle. Player B's team is down to two players on the bench and with the rotations today, they are severely hampered. Still, Player B can thank his lucky stars because as the final siren sounds he is a premiership player who just got delisted.

Now this is of course an extreme example, but none the less if we allow only to consider and award premierships to players who play only in a Grand Final than this is the reality. To lesser extents, these scenarios have perpetuated and will continue to do so, as long as we accept this antiquated dogma.

Not saying the AFL should completely copycat other sports, but for example in the World Cup all players of the squad are awarded a winners medal even if they didn't play. There is merit in that and it holds true also in the AFL. Go down to your club or even local club, and you will find people who were involved in premierships who are not players but all the other staff, who consider themselves premiership people.

Dressing room atmosphere is very important. It gets talked about but we don't really get to see it first hand. The reality is that in the dressing room, on the training track, footy trips, etc... all serve as a purpose to create better players and teams. Teams which then become good enough to win a Grand Final.

You don't win a Grand Final just by turning up. You still require to have a good enough home and away campaign in order to qualify for the finals. Even then it is argued if you don't finish top 4, it is unrealistic you can have a tilt at a flag. Regardless of this conjecture, a team must win finals games to even participate in a Grand Final.

Sure you can argue that players that haven't played a game should not be awarded a premiership medal. But if I had to choose on who I would rather a premiership medal hang over Player A or Player B, I know who I would choose without a doubt. And yet for whatever reason, we just only want to give it to player B.

Way TLDR material.

But...I did make it through the first paragraph and I would say that holding on to traditional is fine - but holding onto pointless and often counter productive ones is not.

The AFL world tends to lean towards the latter.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

It’s utterly ridiculous and laughably out of date.

If you played for a premiership winning club then you contributed and you get a medal.

Players deserve it and many would treasure it, as they should.

The Grand Final is one game of 26 or 27. And plenty of them are farcical. Look at 2007, 2019 or 2022. They were over in the first 15-20 minutes, as many of them are. As if some player who ran around in that meaningless training run is more of a premiership player than somebody who busted a gut in another final or close home and away game.

It’s a culture from a bygone era, upheld by w***er “premiership players” trying to exclude others.

Agree

And given most players only spend about 70-80% or whatever actual time on the ground - the notion is outdated anyway given it was from a bygone era where there were no interchanges.

 

[eth-dog]

It’s utterly ridiculous and laughably out of date.

If you played for a premiership winning club then you contributed and you get a medal.

Players deserve it and many would treasure it, as they should.

The Grand Final is one game of 26 or 27. And plenty of them are farcical. Look at 2007, 2019 or 2022. They were over in the first 15-20 minutes, as many of them are. As if some player who ran around in that meaningless training run is more of a premiership player than somebody who busted a gut in another final or close home and away game.

It’s a culture from a bygone era, upheld by w***er “premiership players” trying to exclude others.

I've been 12th man in a cricket flag. I spent 6-7 overs out of 80 on the field, total. Still got a medal. Still treasure the medal.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I've been 12th man in a cricket flag. I spent 6-7 overs out of 80 on the field, total. Still got a medal. Still treasure the medal.

The culture quite obviously encourages players to say “oh I didn’t play in the GF so I’m not part of it”… typical group footy culture that we’ve all been part of.

Most players would absolutely love it - it’s a simple recognition of the role they played.

So a few might not care. Big deal… there’s plenty of “premiership players” now who don’t care about it too.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The culture quite obviously encourages players to say “oh I didn’t play in the GF so I’m not part of it”… typical group footy culture that we’ve all been part of.

Most players would absolutely love it - it’s a simple recognition of the role they played.

So a few might not care. Big deal… there’s plenty of “premiership players” now who don’t care about it too.

And given we get told all the time about how important everyone at the club is, from boot studder to the fans in the crowd - it's a bit s**t that actual players that literally played during the year get snubbed on GF day.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The culture quite obviously encourages players to say “oh I didn’t play in the GF so I’m not part of it”… typical group footy culture that we’ve all been part of.

Most players would absolutely love it - it’s a simple recognition of the role they played.

So a few might not care. Big deal… there’s plenty of “premiership players” now who don’t care about it too.

Whats next, get rid of Gold Silver Bronze in the Olympics, give all participants a medal? They ran in the race so why should they not get a medal?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

And given we get told all the time about how important everyone at the club is, from boot studder to the fans in the crowd - it's a bit s**t that actual players that literally played during the year get snubbed on GF day.

We could have a 3 hour medal ceremony, and out of respect the losing team should have to sit through the whole thing.

 

[largebus]

I don’t give a s**t what Leon Davis said or did in a single irrelevant anecdotal example. Anecdotal examples are for people who can’t frame arguments properly. I care about what’s right. We know in other sports where athletes are properly recognised with a ring/medal despite not playing in the last game, that they respect and cherish their medal. So we know that proper recognition works, because we have living breathing examples from other sports. The facts are that premierships are factually, unarguably and unambiguously season achievements, not one day achievements, and this clear fact should determine how we acknowledge premiership players. If you disagree and the best you can come up with are one-off anecdotes, then you simply don’t have the facts on your side.

How is it an anecdote when it actually happened? They gave Davis a medal for a game he didn't play in, he didn't want it.
Bob Murphy even handed back his medal he got from the coach saying he couldn't keep it.

You've given no examples to the contrary other than because that's how it is in "other sports". So what if other sports do it, why should the AFL.
You say its bad kulcha but offer no evidence for that either.

For the record if clubs want to give out stuff to physios, trainers, tea ladies, go for it but the AFL shouldnt do it for them.

 

[eth-dog]

Whats next, get rid of Gold Silver Bronze in the Olympics, give all participants a medal? They ran in the race so why should they not get a medal?

Completely different. They didn't win or place.

More to your point though, the people who play in the group stages of a sport and the runners/swimmers who race the heats in a relay get medals as well.