Universal Love Q&A with Tim Lawrence, Lachie's manager - chapter III

[FreoMonocle]

Tim.

It takes a community to raise a child, so it also takes a community to create a draft ready young footy player.

What steps do you think the footy community can take to invest and grow young talent? Also, on a narrower focus (the broader focus is the real question, this is just a curiousity), what steps do you think supporters can take to help grow young talents where they are at least motivated to help out given the self interest (clubs priority access to academies).

 

[Jezzitizle]

Can high end draftees push to stay in their state. Do clubs have quiet words to draftees & say we will pick you up if you put in a bad interview with other teams.

This is the question I was going to ask, there were a lot of rumours about certain players in last years top 5 saying they did not want to move interstate.

Any truth to that Tim?

Would it be considered draft tampering?

 

[Jezzitizle]

One more- what differences have you noticed, if any, between clubs cultures?

 

[Tonga Bob]

Another question for you Tim... are there any bonuses written into player contracts, and if so what's the process for defining a subjective bonus trigger? Examples that come to mind are player X having a bonus trigger of winning a Brownlow but missed by one vote after having an awesome last game but receiving no votes from umpires, or player Y having a bonus trigger of a Rising Star nomination yet not receiving one despite being the best performing potential nominee statistically for a particular round? Or if player Z is leading the club B&F halfway through the year but gets injured, finishes in 6th place and his trigger is getting in the top 5?

 

[Dormammu]

Quick question - lot of talk about trading during the draft as happens in the NFL. What are the ramifications of this for player managers if this does occur?

 

[manpurple]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your answers so far.

My questions relate to the manager player relationship. Obviously we hear about some players changing managers when things go crazy such as the Nixon saga. Is it common for players to change managers? Are there some players who just don’t receive criticism and so change managers? Do players talk to multiple agencies at the same time in to get the best deal. Do players negotiate directly. Lastly we hear that for some players parents have a lot of control over the contracts they sign. Is this real or just noise.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Brutal_Deluxe14]

Tim,

How early do you sign players up?

Do you have dealings with 2nd tier clubs in terms of identifying talent?

Is there a 2nd tier club (WAFL, SANFL or TAC) that you look at more closely because of their set up??

Are you across the emerging WA talent??

Great insight and thanks for your time

 

[Nodgey]

Tim, can players have bonues added to contracts for awards/nominations/B&F placing? Just wondering if a player who receives a Rsing Star nomination (or, say, Fyfe winning the MVP) means extra $ in their pocket.

 

[Arcassius]

Tim Presents ... The Dirty_banchez Chronicles -


Hi Tim, Do you think Lavar Ball is ruining Lonzo Ball's career at the Lakers? Do you have to deal with any difficult parents like Lavar?

Well, here is a confession. I have no idea about the NBA, I grew up in a little town called Bordertown, which in on the highway between Adelaide and Melbourne and as its name suggests, is just on the SA side of the SA/Victorian border. In fact, I grew up 15kms south of Bordertown, surrounded by bush and farmlands. Why am I telling you this? Well I was born in 1976, so grew up in the 1980/90’s and we only had the ABC and a little commercial TV station called BTV6 which came from Ballarat. Then sometime in the late 80’s/early 90’s we got a second commercial which came from Mount Gambier. This meant I didn’t ever see American sports so didn’t follow them. Sure, I knew who Michael Jordan was in the 90’s but that was my basketball knowledge. We had a basketball comp in Bordertown but I was strictly Aussie Rules and cricket until I was about 13, then footy was – and still is – the only sport I consistently follow.

In fact, it was only last week that I learnt that Kendrick Lamar (spelling may be totally incorrect) was a basketballer and is a singer? Or maybe I thought he was a singer and is a basketballer. Anyway, I am sure I have just verified my zero knowledge on the NBA. And current, popular singers that the kids listen too.

So, I tossed a 20c coin to answer your question and it came down on heads – which means my answer is yes, Lavar is ruining Lonzo’s career. He is a total dick.

As far as problem parents go, I avoid them. Part of my research into a player before I approach them includes finding out about mummy and daddy. The clubs do this also. I have attempted it a couple of times and it has worked out exactly 0% of the time. In fact, I no longer work with those players or their families and neither of them made it to the AFL.

I always feel sorry for the kid. Dads think their kid is better than everyone else’s, mums tend to get into the ears of homesick kids to try and drag them back home if they have been drafted interstate.

Both are pretty much a definite ‘no’ from me.



Why is Lebron James such a baby?

Well I don’t know if he is or not, but I am going to take a wild guess and presume that, like many sportspeople that are involved in athlete focused sports and are involved in sports where they get far too much adulation, the people around him let him act like a baby and always have done so.

People who want to be the best need to surround themselves with people who not only love them but challenge them also. I look at the sports brats around now and I think that all of them have surrounded themselves with ‘yes’ men (or women or other gender groups) who tell them what they want to hear, so they can also selfishly stay on the gravy train.



Looking at the NBA and how player talent has been slowly consolidated into 3-4 teams via Free Agency, is Free Agency inherently bad for competition.

I think the important thing to consider one major are of how the salary cap works between the NBA and the AFL. Most importantly, the NBA has a cap (of $119m mind you) but they can go over it by paying a soft tax which I think is $1.50 for each $1 spent over the cap. So if you can derive enough revenue to fund your payroll, an NBA franchise could pay $200m a season if they wanted too.

The AFL also has a cap as we know BUT there is no soft tax so the limit is the limit (ignoring the variations that can occur to average the cap at 100%).

So there is a limit into the AFL as to how many ‘big’ players you can bring in through free agency, whereas in the NBA, if you have the money you can bring in as many as you like!



Should teams have a 2 year option for 1st round draft picks? (i.e. teams have the unilateral right to extend a draftees contract)

The first thing to clarify with this question is at ALL players selected at the National Draft are put onto an initial 2 year contract. This contract including some incentives, have been pre-determined under the CBA, is exactly the same for every player selected and is not negotiated by anyone.

The year 1 payscale is a combination of which round the player is selected at the draft (this creates the base payment), match payments (for AFL games only) and some incentives for matches played in the first year. In the second year, the rates are pretty much determined on the round they were selected initially plus any AFL games the player played in year 1.

So in other words, every player (minus rookies) are already on an initial 2 year deal. However, I am thinking you are asking about an initial 3 or 4 year deal for first round players, which has been floated at times.

I think I am in the minority on this but I actually don’t have an immediate issue with an initial 3 year deal. I think It could be structured so financially it is appropriate for all parties. However, part of me also thinks that letting the player settle into moving interstate, settling into the club, making connection with his new team mates and earning his stripes in his new team without feeling the pressure to stay isn’t a bad thing.

A young player may get homesick and want to go home but you know what? Whether they are out of contract or midway through one, no club is going to keep a player who doesn’t want to be there so having a contract in place is irrelevant either way in that scenario.

When it comes to luring free agents or holding players at the club - regardless of age - in my eyes it’s pretty simple. Be a good club. If you’re a sh*t club, no one will stay and no one will go there. Being a ‘good’ club doesn’t mean they are a consistent top 4 side, or winning flags. They have a good environment. An environment which nurtures individuals - which creates buy in from the players, they own their own destiny - has good leadership and an environment that gives the greatest chance, both on and off field, to be successful.

Whilst it’s slightly off topic, I also have issues with clubs who are constantly demanding improvement and high standards from the players but yet, continue with a sub standard football departments. They demand and want success but won’t look at themselves in the mirror...a bit like the person who gets a Pepsi Max with their bucket of KFC, it really doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it.



With the rising interest in Esports around the world, are you looking into managing Esports players.

I hadn’t thought about it until I read your question, Dirty, but I can confirm I have less than zero interest in managing Esports players.

Computers left me behind with ‘Swiss Family Robinson’ and ‘Where in the world is Carmen San Diego’ on my Commodore 64 and to be honest, I would much rather watch a fly walk up a wall than spend 1 minute of my life watching another person playing a computer game.



Should players be allowed to ‘nominate’ a preferred destination when they wish to be traded?

Of course they should. They have no say in where they go when they are drafted so at some stage, I think they deserve that right - just like any other employee has in mainstream society.

Having said that, I respect the fact that the players club deserves to get something in return after investing money and time into them and the ‘new’ club may need to cough up a little more than they want to get a deal over the line.

You only need to look at Geelong in the last few years and how they have recruited from other clubs. They identify exactly who they need, then without creating a scene or any sort of Mexican stand off, they happily pay a bit more to get their man and get the deal done.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

What's the meaning of life?

Seriously, yakka man , if you think I am going back to that Himalayan cave to do more prostate checks on the Abominable Snowman, you have another thing coming.

I dunno what the supposed meaning is, but I don’t think there is one.


And, do you think free agency is becoming irrelevant with all the player movements? Should they lower the age limit or scrap it altogether?


As far as Free Agency goes compared to players leaving mid contract they are still two very different beasts.

Free Agency not only gives a player choice in where they may want to continue their career but the mechanisms for the clubs themselves to bring in a FA versus trading in a contracted player, is very different.

If, as a club, you want to bring in a FA all you need is the salary cap space. If you bring in a contracted player, you need not only the salary cap space but you also need to let a player(s) and/or draft picks go.

I had breakfast with a club list manager a while back and he said to me that they will look at bringing in a FA over the next couple of years but are not looking to trade any in. This way they can bring in an experienced player for ‘nothing’ and still keep their draft picks to bring in new talent for the future.

In regards to the Free Agency years, currently Restricted Free Agency kicks in from year 8, Unrestricted from year 10. I would change it to 6 and 8.

Why? Well if a player decides they do want to switch clubs - and we have seen some FA agents leave clubs when they have not played finals previously in their career to clubs who are in the finals all the time - they may consider clubs who are a couple of years from hitting their straps rather than the current model, where when the player is 2 years older and they have been at an unsuccessful club, they want success immediately. So if you think the strong clubs get all the Free Agents, this may open it up more to the mid-range, developing clubs.

And if you’re now saying ‘yeah but by lowering the age, clubs will lose players earlier after spending 6 years investing into them!' my answer is simple.

Be a good club and they won’t want to leave.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Will the AFL allow clubs to trade player’s contracts while the player is still in contract?

Wally Walpamur - The AFL may want it, some clubs may want it but what I can assure you is the AFL Players Association (inc the managers) certainly do not. If clubs have drafted in the wrong player (again, the player having no choice on who drafts them at the start) or stuffed their list management up, that's the club's problem. Trade out their recruiting staff, not the players.


Will the AFL do away with the compensation for losing a free agent, allowing the mechanism to be a proper concept of free agency?

Yeah that’s an interesting one. In my opinion I think they should. The compensation for losing a Free Agent could be considered to be the salary cap space they now have to chase another established player. I think the formula the AFL uses to determine compensation seems a little ambiguous. This is nothing against James Frawley, but Melbourne netted pick 2 or 3 for him. Hawthorn got pick 19 when Buddy left.

True, the hawks had just won a flag, Melbourne where struggling and needed a hand and I am all for equalisation. In an ideal world, every player drafted into the AFL and regardless of which club they go to, should have an equal chance of winning a premiership.

But I think, remove the compensation. Having said that, I guess I could be convinced otherwise.



Will the initial term for early (first and second) round kids drafted increase from two to three or four years? Or will clubs have an option to extend the initial two year contract by one or two years to protect the value should said player request a trade away early on in their career.

Have a look at a previous answer I gave to Dirty_banchez which may answer this question.


editor: Tim mentioned he'd answer this further shortly!

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

How often are contracts front and back loaded? Can it change during the contract? To what extent is the loading, for example could it be 50% year 1, then 25% years 2 and 3, or is it a bit closer to 40%, 30%, 30?


It’s hard to say, Bender571 , how often contracts are potentially front and back end loaded but I would venture to say it is pretty common.

Most commonly is the year by year incremental increase in a players contract as they play more often, get more experience and in turn, become better players for the club. This obviously increases their value to the club and as a result, increases their own personal value. This scenario sees these increases written into the contract which is then approved by the AFL - for the TPP reasons I mentioned earlier.

There can also be times, when the club requests or initiates for a contract to be heavily front or back ended. In this scenario the club and player/manager agree what their value is over an agreed period. Eg. Everyone agrees to a 3 year deal which is worth $1.8m or $600k average a year. But the club currently has some players that won’t be offered contracts next year, meaning some extra money in the TPP will be freed up early. So they ask if the player would be happy to split the contract up into say 800/500/500. Now, what’s happening her is the club is thinking about their list strategy - maybe they are into a player who is out of contract in 2 years time and need to plan to free up some salary cap space. From a players point of view this could work well also; an extra $300k that can be put into the mortgage on the house or into a business loan etc.

Sometimes club want to back end a contract - for exactly the same reasons as above. As long as the players isn’t missing out financially (especially when it comes to paying off loans - less money being paid off of loans means more interest the bank is collecting) it’s usually not an issue. Obviously we would have our accountant or financial advisor to crunch some numbers to make sure our players weren’t out of pocket.

A lot of players are happy to help out with things like this. Getting new, quality players into a club - which increases their chances of playing finals/winning premierships - is usually looked upon favourably.

Can these be restructured if a contract changes during the contract term? Yes it can, as long as everyone agrees and the AFL ticks it off. This could happen if a player from another club unexpectedly requests a trade to them - it wasn’t planned or budgeted for but they want to accomodate him!



How did clubs and managers operate without know the latest CBA? Were contracts done on percentage of salary cap, or an assumption that the cap would increase by 20%, and did some clubs like Port keep contract under the old CBA

In regards to finalising a deal before the CBA was ratified (read unknown TPP % increases), managers may have put clauses into any contract which meant that any increases where automatically included On top of any agreed amounts.

Yes, with the recent CBA increase there were some clubs who wouldn’t include those clauses, for various reasons. That’s fine. We just estimate what the increase will be and add it onto the agreed $ terms BEFORE the contract is agreed too.

So either way, the client gets their share of any increase.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

How often if ever do you sniff around on places like big footy

I was going to say never but that’s not true obviously tonygeeks . Maybe once or twice a year but never to try and find anything out. Just for shits and giggles if I’m bored and I’ll tell you why.

Firstly please don’t any of you get offended with anything I say here. People who know me know that whilst I am fun, not overly PC and engaging (well, I think I am anyway) I can also be confronting, very honest and I don’t always hold back as much as I should.

Now, my intention with this answer is not to upset or offend anyone. In fact, because of our engagement together over the past few years, I know you are all open and understanding of things and for what it’s worth, any negative comments I have about BigFooty below is not necessarily aimed at any of you, including yourself, tonygeeks.

Some people use BigFooty to discuss their love of the game, their club and their favourite players. Talk about potential draftees or recruits and sometimes if things aren’t going well, discuss what their club needs to do to improve.

These type of things are great and I reckon, what blog sites like BigFooty are perfect for.

And then there are others. Others who publicly abuse the players and denigrate their character. Question the players motives. Question their work ethic or commitment to the cause. People who think their opinions are valid and correct. They don’t give a shit about what they say or the impact it has. In fact, go back and look at my comments about young people not considering the impacts of their actions others and its relationship with social media.

Unfortunately, there are grown people - adults - who act like kids on sites such as this. Keyboard warriors who have no experience, understanding or factual insight into what they are saying.

I don’t encourage any of my players, their families or loved ones to ever look at BigFooty or similar websites. Why would I when there are gutless idiots on here attacking other people with no justification?

Society is evolving constantly so we understand what is acceptable to say to other people and how to treat other people.

There are some people on BigFooty who have missed this evolution. They don’t deserve any recognition of any kind.

Again, the fact you are all on a thread such as this tells me you are genuinely interested in what this site should be used for and I know that this board has little tolerance for fools.

The reality is I work in a world where there is a lot of smoke and mirrors. But you know what? By and large I can’t work like that. So if I need to know information, I’ll speak to people in the industry who, if they can’t give me factual, truthful answer, they can give me an opinion based on industry experience and knowledge.

Unfortunately, that isn’t BigFooty.

I hope this hasn’t offended any of you. I consider ALL of you to be good guys on here, who use this site in a positive way with discussion and I wouldn’t come on and do this if I thought otherwise. I haven’t ever engaged with any other club board.

I guess you need to look into a mirror and decide yourselves which category you actually fall into.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Hi Tim! What's your thoughts on all the weird rules the AFL keeps hinting that they're going to implement (e.g lowerer interchange, zones, last touch out etc) and have you had any discussions with players about them?


Hi Allikat - it’s good to hear from you again.

Gee, I’m sure many of you would agree that it seems that every time the AFL brings in a rule to fix a problem, another problem (sometimes more than one) seems to be created, doesn’t it.

I liked that the AFL didn’t change anything this year. I think we needed to stop, discuss and work out how to make the game better. I also like the fact that, unlike past years, the rules committee (I don’t think it’s called that anymore, is it?) actually now has people on it that are currently involved in the game. Many of these people are the same people who find ways to get around the new rules which can often create other challenges in the game, which in the past leads to more new rules and the confusion continues.

To answer your question, Allikat , I don’t discuss any rule changes with the players. The umpires come around at the start of each year and explain them. Their coaches explain them and possibly work out ways to exploit them. They don’t need to hear anything from me and anyway, I’m not foolish enough to think for one minute I understand the rule changes better than the people who explain it to them.

For what it’s worth, I am personally not too concerned with the current state of the game. Yeah, like everyone I want to see higher scores and exciting, quick footy but I think recent discussion plus the recent successes of clubs like Richmond who happily move the ball quickly to create scoring options, will bring that change. Plus of course, the AFL engaging current football people to make considered, timely changes will add to this. They will sort it out.

My current gripe, however, is around ‘interpretations’ when an umpire makes a decision. Now, this is not an umpire bashing session; far from it. Umpires are under enough pressure with an endless number of ever growing rules to be expected, in a split second with thousand of fans screaming, dozens of tv cameras watching and competitive players loudly appealing to ‘interpret ’ what a player was thinking before they blow a whistle or make a decision with the MRP.

How the hell does a third party decide what someone else was thinking? Only the person themselves knew what they were thinking.

You can’t touch umpires. Well, actually you can depending on why you did it. But let’s let someone else determine why you did it and then we will work out what to do next. No, unless it is clear that player and umpire accidentally made contact at say a stoppage, DON’T. TOUCH. UMPIRES. Simple. If you do, you either get fined (first time only) or suspended.

Umpires shouldn’t interpret if a player has deliberately taken the ball out of bounds. Are it clean and simple. You either bring it in for every time it goes out of bounds or you don’t. Maybe it’s always deliberate inside the 50m arcs but outside of them, throw it in.

There are others and I am sure there are flaws in my suggestions but for Christ’s sakes, let’s stop adding more and more grey to situations that can be black and white!

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

How do you think the introduction of recruiting zones will influence agents and contract negotiations?



I don’t think it will have any impact at all on either us as an industry or on contract negotiations yakka man

Recruiting zones will just give an area for each club to focus on and potentially set up Academies. If we use the current northern academy model, as i'm not too sure how these reuniting zones will look, that doesn’t mean that other clubs can’t recruit these players, it just means that the club looking after that zone gets a 20% discount on draft night.

Once they are drafted, either to the club allocated to their region or to another club, recruiting zones will mean nothing.

The only thing from a management point of view that may happen is if an agent is from a particular zone - grew up there, still has family and connections there - they may try to strengthen their relationship with the AFL club allocated to the region to try and potentially increase their chances of signing the player.

But that won’t stop any other agent from still having a crack.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Hey Tim, thanks for your insights & candor over the past couple of years, us fans really appreciate it! And thanks Arcassius for being an awesome conduit.

I've noticed that a couple of player agents have recently been recruited (poached?) by clubs, as has Emma Quayle from a footy journo world. It's probably not a recent thing but I've noticed it in the past year or two. How has that seen within the player agent cohort? Career progression or defection? What are the pros & cons of such a move? Has somebody moved back the other way? Cheers...


Hi Tonga Bob , thanks for your sentiments and I enjoy answering everyone’s questions!

Emma was an interesting one, wasn’t it. I always enjoyed her articles, particularly the ones about young draftees; where they were from, their family life, growing up etc. you could get a real feel about the young men she wrote about. She didn’t just write about their football but wrote about them as a person. Gerard Whateley writes and talks about atheletes in a similar way. As does Bob Murphy and for those who enjoy this type of insight and are heading to Darwin for the Melbourne game, have a listen to Charlie King on ABC Grandstand. He does it beautifully also.

So whilst seeing a well known and respected journalist venture into club land as a recruiter was new, when you think about it, she has seen many of the best young draftees play so can compare apples with apples but not only that, she also gained insight into the characters of the best recent draft picks and as you all know, a players character is very important these days.

Unless they leave the industry all together, the most common pathway into club land for many agents is through list management. Dan Richardson left TLA (formerly ESP) to join Richmond in lost management and now is at Essendon in the football department. Ned Guy (Alex McDonald Talent Management) joined Collingwood and is their current list manager. Justin Reid left ESP (now TLA) to be the list manager at Adelaide and even Fremantle’s own List Manager, Brad Lloyd, formerly was a player agent with ESP before joining the Dockers.

On a personal note, I replaced Craig Vozzo at Stride when he became West Coast’s List Manager and is now their Football Manager. Peter Rohde came back the other way from being the Football Manager at Port Adelaide (and of course, he used to coach the Western Bulldogs) to join me at Stride when Adrian Battiston left our group to join West Coast as, you guessed it, their List Manager for a period of time. Rohdey wanted to build a his business, EFM Fitness, and get away from the football scene - which consumes your life and isn’t 9-5, 5 days a week - and spend more time with his wife and kids. Pete still loves footy, so joining us was his way of keeping involved.

As you can see there is a link between players management and list management. Both roles need a good understanding of and how to identify talent (although clubs also have Recruiting Managers who, whilst often work closely with List Managers, specialise in new talent), the value of contracts, the ability negotiate contracts, already have established connections with List Managers and Football Managers at other clubs and, of course, relationships with current Player Agents.

Like nearly every job, no one is in the one place for ever these days are they, so I think it’s a natural employment progression in our business.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Can high end draftees push to stay in their state. Do clubs have quiet words to draftees & say we will pick you up if you put in a bad interview with other teams


This is the question I was going to ask, there were a lot of rumours about certain players in last years top 5 saying they did not want to move interstate. Any truth to that Tim? Would it be considered draft tampering?



Thanks for these questions, mightymouse75 & Jezzitizle . As you picked up, Jezz, they are very similar questions so I hope you don’t me answering them as one!

If a player straight out tells a club “If you draft me, I won’t be coming” (or words to that effect) it is straight out draft tampering and if reported and found to be true, the players draft nomination is rescinded, meaning the player is ineligible to be drafted by anyone.

It used to be for a period of 2 years but don’t take my word in that.

In regards to AFL clubs trying to persuade a player to do something to tamper with the draft, firstly I don’t think any of them would dare do it. I know of a player, who was never drafted, being called the night before two consecutive drafts (once by the club coach) and was told they would be selecting him the next day. Both times his name was not called out. Imagine if a club told a player to dissuade the other clubs and then, on draft night, they didn’t select him... what do you think would happen? Don’t reckon it would disappear quietly into the sunset.

From my side of the fence, I want 18 clubs and as many chances as possible for my players at the draft. Not 1 club with only a couple of opportunities to get drafted.

I haven’t heard of any rumours of players or their families trying to discourage clubs recently but I have in the last. I have no idea how much truth there as to them, however.

In the past - not in recent years - I have heard of clubs encouraging players to not play state league footy and go back to school or club footy to try and avoid gaining attention from other clubs. As I said that was in the last and honestly, clubs and their recruiting staff are that far onto every potential draftable player these days from about 16 years of age - you just can’t hide them anymore.

This is very much my personal opinion and unless there were compelling personal circumstances - which sometimes there can be, and there has been in the past I should add - I would question whether the player has the mental strength to survive at AFL level if he can’t even leave the warmth and security of home.

That’s one reason I like working with country kids. They’ve left home already (to come to the city to play SANFL), matured, learnt how to look after themselves and gained independence before draft day. Many clubs see it the same way also.

Every kid I’ve worked with, 100% of them, have been more than happy to go to any of the 18 clubs and I like that.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Looking back, has anything changed materially to the answers provided in Chapters 1 and 2?


Firstly, Dormammu , I notice your location on your profile says ‘Out of sight, Out of mind’. I need you to know that you are not out of sight, nor out of mind. Do you know why? Because I’m answering your question. That’s why.

Ok, so maybe because I’m sitting on my couch, typing my answers onto my iPad and I can’t actually see you, so yes I will be honest, you are out of sight. But not by choice of course. It’s a combination of vast geography versus the human eye not being able to see that far. Especially when you go past 40 and have spent the majority of your life alone in bed at night trying to keep yourself amused.... if you know what I mean. Supposedly you can go blind with this sort of self gratifying lifestyle they reckon. However! You are valued and you not out of mind because yes.... again... I’m answering your question.

Anyway. Back to the job at hand.

Has anything changed since Chapters 1 and 2? Possibly. Probably. I’ll be honest, I’m not going back to read what I said in those Q & A’s.

Whilst I think my personal viewpoints and principles I think are still very much the same; the football world continues to change. A new CBA with new rules, clubs go up the ladder, clubs go down the ladder, my players get older and we need to factor in things such as getting married and starting families, changes with coaches, contracts being offered and contracts not being offered, I need to keep changing and evolving too.

Then outside of the football bubble I need to keep evolving and learning fro the young people I work with. My young clients who I need to be able to mentor, build a trusting relationship with and develop and understanding of. We all know how much the world is changing in so many ways, and we as society - not just people like me - need to keep changing so we can keep mentoring, building close relationships with and to further understand and learn about how their lives are for them. They are the people who will be leading this country and the world one day when we are old and decrepit.

So I guess whilst I don’t think I have changed a lot in regards to what I may have said here or the way I operate in Chapters 1 & 2.... under the surface, I’m sure I probably have in some ways. In fact, I hope I have.

A rolling stone gathers no moss, as they say.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

I read in the other threads that you dealt with Matt Scharenberg, did you also deal with his brother Jonty and if so can you explain why he was rated so highly externally but went undrafted? And do you know of any similar stories at the draft and the possible reasons for that?

I coached Matt in 2011, when I coached the Glenelg U18s in the SANFL but that was it really. I spoke to him informally a couple of times after that year, as you do, but that was it. Jonty was playing U15s at the club but I didn’t ever have anything to do with him at all.

I don’t want to go into why he wasnt drafted. I do know why it was but I'm not comfortable talking about a young man who doesn’t know me and to why his AFL dream was shattered.

However, I will address the ‘rated so highly externally’ part of your question.

I need to clarify now, Bender571 , what I am about to say isn’t aimed at you in any way. You have been good enough to ask the question and I am pleased you have.

Let’s be honest, ‘external’ people are people who are not ‘internal’ so in this case, the external people are in the media, supposed experts on the draft or website bloggers who generally gain their knowledge from reading what other ‘external’ people claim to know.

In this case, ‘internal’ people are recruiters and list managers. People who actually make the decisions come draft night.

I want to ask you all a question and to make it easy, I’ll provide multiple choice answers.

The question is this - How many ‘external’ people have you seen, on draft night, call out a draftees name?

And these are you choice of answers -

1. none
2. zero
3. naught
4. all of the above

Get what I’m saying?

Unfortunately in South Australia, the local media is pretty ordinary. I don’t buy the local paper and I stream radio coverage in from Victoria rather than listen to the crap that gets served up in Adelaide. It’s shocking. If South Australians wonder why the rest of the country laughs at us, the standard of much of Adelaide’s media pretty much epitomises why.

The football media over here is no exception. They are pretty much a bunch of people who should have been pensioned off 20 years ago. Unfortunately their views and understanding of many elements of football (inc potential draftees) died even longer ago than that.

So when the ‘external’ people write publicly about a young fella who is 17, 18 years of age - so everyone believes it - whilst ‘internal’ people who have the intel know that what is being written and saying is so far off the mark.... well this isn’t going to end well, is it.

I know some of you may think, “yeah but why don’t the internal people say something?” If these journo’s had true internal connections (presuming they would actually bother to try and find out information from a reputable source) they would have been told. It’s shit journalism.

A few months after Jonty’s draft, I was at a Glenelg trial game and ran into Glenelg Football Manager. I asked how Jonty was. The kid didn’t want to know about football for a couple of months afterward and wasn’t going to play again. He was shattered he wasn’t drafted but he also felt humiliated and had ‘let his family and friends down’ because of all these stories. All these stories where he was touted as being a ‘high draft pick’, ‘a draft certainty’ and would be the ‘first South Aussie kid to get taken at the draft’.

That’s what I think of ‘external opinion’.



Has the clubs list strategy matched up to what you and Lachie were told when he was extending his contract?

"But I have digressed, going back to the 4 year recruiting and trading model the club has implemented, identifying experienced players within a particular age profile (getting the list all hitting their prime age and experience at the same time is a big part of giving your best chance of premiership success) as well as potentially targeting players who were originally from WA. I don’t think I am speaking out of school when I mention those two things and identifying ‘local’ talent is something a lot of non-Victorian clubs do also.

So do I know of any players wanting to go to Fremantle (apart from my 3 young pups for this year’s draft?) no I don’t but it will come. They will come.

This might sound really strange but in my eyes, Fremantle are in a better position now to build sustainable, long term success now than they were 5 years ago when Ross joined them.

That was another box ticked off."

Yes and no. I can’t go into too much detail about it but they haven’t achieved everything they said they would but, in their defence and from our point of view, we are still 12 months away from reviewing this, so there is still plenty of time for these things to happen.

What I can say, and what you all need to know, is that Fremantle have clearly been trying to do everything they can to achieve the trading and draft strategy we were shown in mid 2016.

That’s all we can expect, and ask for, for now.



Which players do you represent in this years draft?

Apart from a few lads who have missed out over the last couple of years, at this stage I will only take one player, Tom Lewis (Sturt FC) into this years draft. We have a long way to go but I am really pleased with how he is tracking. He is a great kid too.



Does a player's third party earning capacity vary much between AFL states and QLD & NSW?

Thats a good question. I don’t have any players in NSW or QLD so I am only speculating but I would presume there would be less opportunities being a non-AFL state? I reckon you would need to be a pretty big name to get any endorsement deals up there compared to other AFL focused states.

 

[Arcassius]

My own personal comment to the above about Fremantle's list strategy -

I would think that what the club tells players and managers would be an accurate view of their strategy. Thing is - strategies are just a pathway to a goal. Lots of things can happen in between. Targets can reject the club, or have a change of heart. Negotiations can fall through. Draft targets might get snaffled by other clubs. Players might have season ending injuries. Support staff might up and leave. Players who you would think are solid might suddenly request to get traded to the Gold Coast.

Point is, things happen, and it's a moving feast. There's a difference between having a roadmap and being able to navigate it. Not reaching the destination doesn't necessarily mean that the strategy was 'wrong'

 

[Dirty_banchez]

If a player straight out tells a club “If you draft me, I won’t be coming” (or words to that effect) it is straight out draft tampering and if reported and found to be true, the players draft nomination is rescinded, meaning the player is ineligible to be drafted by anyone.

And yet...http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-15/chads-giant-refusal

 

[TheMcManusNose]

And yet...http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-15/chads-giant-refusal

Yeah that is the obvious counter example. I'm assuming the workaround is that nominating for the draft commits you to serve out the standard 2 year contact with whichever club selects you. Wingard implies he said he would absolutely do this (and thus abiding by the terms of nominating for the draft) but would not re-sign after his draftee contract.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Another question for you Tim... are there any bonuses written into player contracts, and if so what's the process for defining a subjective bonus trigger? Examples that come to mind are player X having a bonus trigger of winning a Brownlow but missed by one vote after having an awesome last game but receiving no votes from umpires, or player Y having a bonus trigger of a Rising Star nomination yet not receiving one despite being the best performing potential nominee statistically for a particular round? Or if player Z is leading the club B&F halfway through the year but gets injured, finishes in 6th place and his trigger is getting in the top 5?

Tim, can players have bonues added to contracts for awards/nominations/B&F placing? Just wondering if a player who receives a Rsing Star nomination (or, say, Fyfe winning the MVP) means extra $ in their pocket.


Thanks Tonga Bob and Nodgey for these questions. Obviously they are similar so I will answer them as one; I’ll go with @Nodgey’s first so it makes some sense.

There can be a different number of performances clauses put into a negotiated contract. Some common ones (but not necessarily the only ones) could include games played in a season, Club B&F finishes such as Top 10/Top 5 or making the final All Australian team. Maybe if you had a gun full forward on your books it could include the Coleman. Usually these clauses could create a bonus payment for the player in the year they achieved the clause, however, there could be capacity to roll a specified $ amount into the following year/years of the contract to recognise the potential improvement of the player.

Really there isn’t any definitive limit to what you could put in but at the same time, as an agent you want to try and lean more towards having a clause that your client has real potential to achieve rather than just throwing in an unachievable bonus. For instance, it’s unlikely you would put a Top 3 Brownlow clause into a contract for a player who is going into their 3rd AFL year.

The Rising Star one wouldn’t be that common. Whilst the rules determine there could be exceptions to this, most Rising Star awards are won within the players first season or two - during the period where they are on those predetermined contracts which don’t have a clause such as this.

The Rising Star award does bring a one off cash bonus however, and any manager worth their salt will ‘make up for it’ with the next contract.

To answer your question, Tonga Bob, the bonus clauses need to be very black and white. It is far too problematic and confusing for players/agents, their clubs and the AFL (who have to approve all of these things for TPP purposes) if there are ‘what ifs’.

If a player has a Top 5 bonus clause in their contract and they miss out by even 1 vote, that’s what it is. Bad luck. If we have a ‘what if’ on injuries the we need to have a ‘what if’ for team selections based on the weather and ‘what ifs’ on clubs resting players (not omitted, rested. There is a difference) also. Too confusing for everybody.

Close calls can sometimes favour clubs and sometimes favour players. It’s swings and roundabouts but clauses need to be definitive and clear to all parties involved from the get go.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Tim. I'd really like your opinion (and how the players feel) about the possibility of being traded without the player's permission. The way I see it - all players seem to have an almost defacto free agency. They say, "I want out, and I want to go to Club abc. Trade me.

Freo have been on both sides lately (Cam Mac and Balic for example - there are many more accross the league), but I can't help thinking that both player's original team may have got a better return for investment if they'd been able to trade to the club willing to offer the best deal (picks, player, whatever). E.g Balic want back to Vic and Freo basically send him to the club who is the highest bidder.

At the moment, having to earn free agency is almost pointless.

This is how almost all of the Pro sports in the US work and at the moment, I feel the power is tilted toward the player.

Any thoughts, whispers?



Thanks for your question, @Okinakishi . Wally Walpamur I have also tagged you into this answer, as you asked a similar question regarding a player being traded at the instigation of the club and with out their consent. In hindsight, I didn’t answer your question at all well and I apologise for that.

I can understand people now starting to question the value of contracts. Without any hard facts, we do seem to have seen a rise in the number of players seeking trades mid-contract. I would be lying if I said I had never thought about it and wondered about the value of contracts either.

As I stated in Wally’s question, if the club has made an error with their recruiting or list I still stand by the fact that’s their problem and not the players. However, and I would think all of you will find this hypocritical of me, but if a player has a legitimate reason and needs to leave the club for personal reasons, I have no issue with it.

But let me say this also, if a player wants to leave mid contract with no extenuating and personal circumstances; they just want to leave because they want to and that includes for more money than they have already agreed too, I don’t agree with that.

The build up to negotiating and agreeing to a contract should involve a number of things. Things that aren’t money related. It might be about opportunities to develop leadership skills, life after football, support when starting a family and opportunity within the team. When you think about it, the same things we all think about when we consider extending a contract with an employer, or, if we are considering changing an employer.


I reckon I have mentioned this at another time but with my boys, there are three basic - but highly important - things to consider. And they go in this order of importance:

1) Are you happy? Happy with your new club, happy if you have relocated (not homesick), feeling settled... all the holistic things anyone wants.

2) How are your opportunities? Are you in the team or getting close to being in the senior side? What challenges will there be in the future selection wise? Is the team playing finals or on track to be a finals contender in the near future? (No one plays footy with no desir to play in finals and win flags)

Daylight......

3) Then comes the money/contract length side of things.


If we can’t tick off numbers 1 & 2, there is no point even looking at 3. I’m sure many of use have taken a job that paid well but wasn’t what we really wanted. The pay check satisfies and covers the cracks for a short period of time but once it wears off, you lose interest, never perform to the best of your ability and that’s no good for employee or employer. It’s no different for AFL footballers.

When we deal with humans, things can suddenly change and we all understand that. But I honestly think if you spend the time asking questions with your client before signing on the dotted line, this can massively lessen the chance of them suddenly changing their mind mid contract.

I remember when I first started with Stride, my boss Tom Petroro, said to me “Timmy, a decision on accepting a contract offer can NEVER be based purely on money”. He said one time he had a client who was making a decision on leaving his then current club and it was all about the money. Tom said it was horrible to deal with and for what it’s worth, I agree with Tom in every way.

Sure, the money is important of course - let’s not kid ourselves - and it could be a big part of a decision making process but it has to be part of a number of considerations, not the sole reason.

Now, if a player wants to leave mid-contract and they do request a trade to a certain club, their current club has every right to trade to them to the ‘highest bidder’. That’s the current rules.

However, AFL clubs are not cold and ruthless. I will touch on it later but the most successful clubs (yes, as in finals and flags) are the ones who put their players first. Treat them as a valuable commodity and not just an asset. So if a player had really legitimate reason to need to break their contract and return home for personal reasons, the two clubs and the players manager will do their upmost to request a reasonable trade.

But we as managers understand the rules and need to know that in this case, the clubs do hold the cards and we need our clients to know that. They may want to leave Freo (for legit reasons) and return home to play for Carlton. However, North Melbourne, may offer Freo the best deal, so the manager needs to look and discuss that option. It might not be Carlton but it is a return to Melbourne, just possibly with the Kangaroos right?

Having said that, not since Port refused to trade Nick Stevens to Collingwood, have we ever seen a club not trade a player to a their choice of destination? They may be all huff and puff in the media declaring they will trade the player to the club which offers them the best deal but it never happens. The chosen club needs to come to the party as well and they know they have an obligation to do that if they have made a commitment to the player; like Geelong does - pay a bit more than you really want too, but get the deal done and get your man.

I have no doubt that the Cats paid more for Gary Ablett Jnr last year than they really wanted too and the Suns let him go for less than they wanted too but Gaz didn’t want to be on the Gold Coast anymore and then with the tragic loss of his sister, well, the two clubs had to concede a bit and get the deal done.

The club losing the player deserves the right for adequate compensation. No argument from me there. We have a classic example with Lachie Weller wanting to return to the GC last year. I don’t know him and have no idea why he wanted to leave but he chose to leave, nominated a club (who also wanted him) and Freo got the best deal they could -

Pick 2!! Now don’t any of you dare tell me you weren’t, in the the end, happy to say good bye to Lachie Weller and welcome pick 2, which bought you Andy Brayshaw.

You traded out a player who didn’t want to be there and bought in a player who has already signed a contract extension and wants to stay. I should add he is a ripping young man also. Win, win for the Dockers.

Oh and another thing about a club only trading a player to a club who offers the best deal. And lets use the Freo player wanting to return home to Melbourne and play for Carlton again. Any other rival clubs - who want the player - will do their homework and ascertain if it is viable and workable for them to the throw their hat in the ring. This would involve talking to the players manager also to determine the circumstances of the player leaving their current club.... and whilst they move been keen initially, their research may determine that it is not a viable option. Eg. Freo player wants to return to Melbourne, requests a trade to Carlton and Freo say they will trade him to whoever offers them the best deal. It turns out Brisbane are keen and can offer the best deal but... the Lions do their homework, discover the player need to return to Melbourne and Melbourne only for personal reasons, Brisbane aren’t going to waste players or picks on a kid who doesn’t want to be there (so won’t perform well) and in 12 months time will just request a trade to go back to Victoria anyway.

Keep in mind, this player now hasn’t played well for 12 months, so whatever the Lions gave up for him, he will be worth less now.

So whilst the initial club may potentially hold the cards and right to get the ‘best deal’ the reality is only clubs who fit the profile (are a realistic, suitable club for the player) are going to offer anything.

Free Agency isn't pointless at all. It still has its place for being the opportunity for the freedom of change and at the end of a contract. Keep in mind it can work equally well for the club, giving cap space to potentially bring in another good player and give nothing up to bring the player in. So it’s a two way street really.

Yeah, I think the power is slightly tilted towards the player but not as much as we all may think and anyway, what acceptable workplace in mainstream society has the total upper hand on their employees anyway?

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Hi Tim, Thanks for your answers so far. My questions relate to the manager player relationship. Obviously we hear about some players changing managers when things go crazy such as the Nixon saga. Is it common for players to change managers? Are there some players who just don’t receive criticism and so change managers? Do players talk to multiple agencies at the same time in to get the best deal. Do players negotiate directly. Lastly we hear that for some players parents have a lot of control over the contracts they sign. Is this real or just noise.


Hi manpurple , thanks for your question.

It isn’t that common I don’t think but it does happen, for sure.

It can happen for a number of reasons really and it could lay at the fault of the manager or the player (managers can ‘sack’ players too) or, like any relationship in life, it just doesn’t work as well as it used too. So there isn’t always a sinister motive behind it.

If your asking as to if players talk to multiple agencies initially to work out who they want to sign with at the start, yeah they do for sure. Some may only meet a select few and some meet heaps- it’s an individual choice. In Lachie’s draft year, he was always going to sign with me. That’s not to sound like I’m trying to rate myself but it was because of the coaching and the close personal relationship we had developed, well before the draft that year. But because of my experiences with these thing and as a mentor of his, I wanted him to learn that looking at various options is a wise thing to do with any choice in life and particularly when you get older so I encouraged him to meet another management group. He met one, didn’t like the guy he met and then promptly signed with me... which he was always going to but if I was going to be a good manager for him and a good mentor, I needed to do that with him.

However, if you are asking can a player use multiple agencies at once to strike the best contract deal, no you can’t.

Every management group and the player have a legal agreement between each other - which is drafted by the AFL players Association - which outlines that the appointed manager/management group are the only ones who can discuss and negotiate a contract with an AFL club for the player. The agent must also be Accredited with the AFLPA - clubs can’t discuss or negotiate with an unaccredited agent.

The reality is, clubs aren’t going to give different offers to different managers representing the same player anyway. Why would they? It serves no purpose for them. They want to get a player for as cheaply as they can, we (player and agent) want the best/highest deal we can get!!

To answer the last 2 parts of your question, only the player, a parent or legal guardian or an accredited agent can discuss, negotiate and sign an AFL Standard Playing Contract. So yeah a player (who hasn’t appointed a manager) can certainly do it themselves as can their parent or legal guardian and that’s probably what you have read or heard about.

As a rule, if a player has a manager, most parents sit back and let the person with the knowledge and experience get the best deal for their kid. With the players consent, I am happy to lead them through the process and keep them involved with the player; especially for the first contract and only with the players consent, after that I think it’s up to the player to discuss with their family as they are adults now and there is a player/agent privacy element that needs to be followed.

Obviously I am going to be biased here but I do wonder if a player representing themselves, or a parent representing their son would have the knowledge and understanding of a players value can get a good deal done in a timely manner. However, everything is up to what the players themselves is comfortable with and that’s very important.

For the record, if I ever had a son or daughter good enough to play in the AFL or AFLW, I wouldn’t manage them. Certainly it would be another agent within Stride (of course of the kid was comfortable to work with one of my colleagues) but I wouldn’t want any emotion cloud my judgement. I think it’s good and healthy for the manager to deal with the business side of things and parents to sit back, just be mum and dad and be there to support their son or daughter as every parent should.

But that’s just my opinion and there is no real right or wrong answer.