Play Nice Random Chat Thread V

[The Warlord]

Should be shot at dawn.

 

[Themanbun]

A bit rich with the attitude call, considering you were the one that effectively called me an IW stooge. That is quite insulting to call someone.

That's all well and good with cotton and a few other industries, but CL effectively decreased by the early 20th century as you know. I'll leave the death rates, as we all know they are a source of debate with linkages to concurrent TB death rates during the 18th-19th centuries.

Well, that was effectively the logic you stated when you commented on casting stones. We are allowed to judge other policies and genocides when accounting for our own biases and acknowledging these biases in the framework used to judge others, including Australia's own genocide. If we were not allowed to cast stones due to past genocides, then many countries would be in trouble considering their histories.

No, I said CL was not the principal driving factor behind the West's industrialization, not that it was not a factor at all. Plus, a whole heap of 'less-than savory' labour laws and practices, some of which continue today. Again, not news to you.

Probably not, because they lack the freedom to openly criticize their own government, but I take your point, even if I don't entirely agree.

I literally never called you an IW stooge.

You stated that all of those things are necessary parts to have in learning from their economic model. I was making the point that every element you had mentioned, we had been there and done that. My point was that those horrible aspects which we should be able to cleave off pretty easily by, well, not abusing people, shouldn't prevent us from learning from the economic model.

"No, I said CL was not the principal driving factor behind the West's industrialization, not that it was not a factor at all. "

That discussion was well after your original reply to me mate. I think your sequencing of how this evolved is off.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

Lose the attitude, you're better than that. You do know that I am a labour historian myself, right? I just don't feel the need to flex on it every time we have a conversation.

Well into the mid 19th century children past the age of 9 were permitted to work 60 hour weeks in cotton mills - which was a pretty big industry. Child labour, outside of slave and indentured labour in the colonies, was one of the most competitive models for simple manufacturing functions. Anglophonic industrial relations policies still actually bear the mark of child labour in the form of junior rates. The royal commissions and parliamentary debates in Victoria leading into the 1880s make for grim reading and put forward a pretty bleak assessment of England at the time. Famine and neglect killed many all the way into the interwar period. That's a pretty big underselling of late 19th century child employment. And then there's the issue of our mid 20th century economic development being boosted by outsourcing to countries where these laws remained.

"By your logic, we cannot judge any genocide..."

Not what I said. You were the one stating that those factors weren't present in Australian or western economic development. Our economic development was built on this ****. Patently false.

My point was that there would be a Chinese version of you probably sitting on their forums throwing stones at the West when someone makes a point that we can learn from the West's unplanned economies. Bad things are bad things. They are not isolated to China.

We don't need Uyghur genocide and prison camps to learn from the general out performance of their planned economy vis a vis our unplanned ones.

A bit rich with the attitude call, considering you were the one that effectively called me an IW stooge. That is quite insulting to call someone.

That's all well and good with cotton and a few other industries, but CL effectively decreased by the early 20th century as you know. I'll leave the death rates, as we all know they are a source of debate with linkages to concurrent TB death rates during the 18th-19th centuries.

Well, that was effectively the logic you stated when you commented on casting stones. We are allowed to judge other policies and genocides when accounting for our own biases and acknowledging these biases in the framework used to judge others, including Australia's own genocide. If we were not allowed to cast stones due to past genocides, then many countries would be in trouble considering their histories.

No, I said CL was not the principal driving factor behind the West's industrialization, not that it was not a factor at all. Not an I ignorant of a whole heap of 'less-than savory' labour laws and practices, some of which continue today in the west. Again, not news to you.

Many of the factors I listed about China are more relevant to the impact of state planning and were not as relevant during the industrial revolution.

Probably not, because they lack the freedom to openly criticize their own government, but I take your point, even if I don't entirely agree.

Oi, look, how about you both just stop the bickering and continue to post the good stuff! I'm enjoying this conversation too much for you two to keep getting snippy at each other and prematurely ending it as a result. Don't make me send yous to bed without supper!

 

[Themanbun]

Oi, look, how about you both just stop the bickering and continue to post the good stuff! I'm enjoying this conversation too much for you two to keep getting snippy at each other and prematurely ending it as a result. Don't make me send yous to bed without supper!

Good point.

Kangaroos4eva only one way to settle this - speed read off.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

I literally never called you an IW stooge.

You stated that all of those things are necessary parts to have in learning from their economic model. I was making the point that every element you had mentioned, we had been there and done that.

"No, I said CL was not the principal driving factor behind the West's industrialization, not that it was not a factor at all. "

That discussion was well after your original reply to me mate. I think your sequencing of how this evolved is off.

This is part of the information war I guess.

You pretty much say I was relaying IW drivel, aka a victim/stooge of IW. I know it wasn’t intentional, but you can see my pov.

Not all of the factors. State planned collectivisation and the banning of private farms, supported by widespread repression, is more relevant/unique to China and socialist economies.

Maybe we wouldn’t be having this silly discussion if I stated that point to start with.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

Good point.

Kangaroos4eva only one way to settle this - speed read off.

Whoever can use the most esoteric political jargon in a 250 word post wins.

Aaaaand GO!

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Oi, look, how about you both just stop the bickering and continue to post the good stuff! I'm enjoying this conversation too much for you two to keep getting snippy at each other and prematurely ending it as a result. Don't make me send yous to bed without supper!

But mum...

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Whoever can use the most esoteric political jargon in a 250 word post wins.

Aaaaand GO!

Well normally I wouldn’t bother with a level of dialectics required, but I will indulge you commissar Spurs. What if I told you about the principles of Burke’s detailed critique of liberty, equality and fraternity and its application to Locke’s philosophy. It is also very interesting to talk about Rousseau’s enlightenment theory and its impact on Rosbpierre and his reign of terror. O wait, you were kidding...

 

[The Warlord]

IMO this is what lay behind the anti-China info war at the moment. While not strictly Marxist they have a different economic and development framework and its success is a hard piece of evidence that you can do things a different way.

100 per cent. It was political orthodoxy for decades that all we had to do was engage with China economically and by the magic of Adam Smith they'd automatically become a democracy and thus part of the Anglophone imperium.

That's patently not happened and as you say, their framework appears an attractive alternative to enough of the world that they must be confronted and cut down to size.

Hence confected concern for the Uighurs and the like, who are actually being lined up as cannon fodder

 

[Themanbun]

This is part of the information war I guess.

You pretty much say I was relaying IW drivel, aka a victim/stooge of IW.

Not all of the factors. State planned collectivisation and the banning of private farms, supported by widespread repression, is more relevant to

I'm sorry if you took offence but I do see these as part of the information war, and as I was saying, that's not to say there isn't someone on the other side of the world stating the inverse.

I'm not calling you a stooge. I just don't like the inevitable spiralling of distractions that it causes. The 'but' parts of this discussion are all worthy in and of their own, and when someone admits that we can learn from economies doesn't mean we should become them as a country. Of course, we shouldn't copy those awful aspects, just as we shouldn't ignore the awful aspects of our own countries. Please do not interpret my comments as thinking they are a utopia.

My original point was that I don't think western powers really give a damn about Uyghurs, or social credit, or child labour - although they absolutely should. I think they mostly care about the fact they're getting their economic pants pulled down and losing their monopoly on successful economic development frameworks.

Simpkin's response in the immediate post above pretty much encapsulates what I was originally trying to say and does so without focusing on the all the other stuff and details that you and I tend to do. We both have a habit of not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

China excels at hybrid war, including IW and gray warfare, probably more than most. Was a central ingredient of the way Mao percieved war and strategy and it helped him overcome far more powerful enemies. The West does IW too, but the nature of its society with open sources of information can make it profoundly difficult to defend against counter operations. Without strict control of most information, IW is far harder for the west to pull off.

 

[The Warlord]

Some pretty dramatic rewriting of economic history in the West going on here.

Australian and US prosperity literally built on the ongoing genocide of the people who were on this land first.

British imperial greatness built off the deaths of tens of millions of Indians alone.

The great Bengal Famine (one of many that went right into the 20th century) of the late 1700s was directly caused by the EIC funneling billions back to England, it killed millions.

If we want to compare body counts of post 1949 China against the Anglophone capitalist imperium, the Chinese come off far better.

 

[DesertRoo]

Should be shot at dawn.

100% treason but still claim worst insurrection ever.
the bums were let into the building and still just walking in like, what next..
Looks like this great plan was let down by placing way to much faith in trailer park trash..

 

[The Warlord]

China excels at hybrid war, including IW and gray warfare, probably more than most. Was a central ingredient of the way Mao percieved war and strategy and it helped him overcome far more powerful enemies. The West does IW too, but the nature of its society with open sources of information can make it profoundly difficult to defend against counter operations. Without strict control of most information, IW is far harder for the west to pull off.

Dude the West's IW is so good that you, a smart educated man, can say with a straight face it isn't that good.

Best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he doesn't exist.

Western propaganda operates at levels the Chinese would love to attain.

They have to force it on their people, we lap the s**t up.

The average person honestly believes the US is a force for good in the world, and not the rapacious imperial power it so obviously is, and openly tells us it is too.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Dude the West's IW is so good that you, a smart educated man, can say with a straight face it isn't that good.

Best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he doesn't exist.

Western propaganda operates at levels the Chinese would love to attain.

They have to force it on their people, we lap the sh*t up.

The average person honestly believes the US is a force for good in the world, and not the rapacious imperial power it so obviously is, and openly tells us it is too.

The fact that you and I have direct free access to information that openly proves that the US is a lot of those horrible things says otherwise. It is not like ignorant people don’t have access to that information. In saying that, the US is good at IW, but to what degree is debatable. It is something I need to investigate when I have the time.

Living in China, all information would make things look a lot more flowery to dispel the actual reality. There’s a reason the centralised control of information is essential during coups and for horrible authoritarian regimes.

It’s too late at night to be talking IW.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

The fact that you and I have direct free access to information that openly proves that the US is a lot of those horrible things says otherwise. Living in China, all information would make things look flowery to dispel the actual reality. There’s a reason the control of information is essential during coups and for horrible authoritarian regimes.

It's a more impressive feat that we know those things and yet still feel mostly utterly powerless to even challenge the status quo.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

It's a more impressive feat that we know those things and yet still feel mostly utterly powerless to even challenge the status quo.

Maybe things are never as good or as bad as it seems. Regardless of the system, most of the populace just go about their lives worrying about themselves.

 

[ferball]

Dude the West's IW is so good that you, a smart educated man, can say with a straight face it isn't that good.

Best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he doesn't exist.

Western propaganda operates at levels the Chinese would love to attain.

They have to force it on their people, we lap the sh*t up.

The average person honestly believes the US is a force for good in the world, and not the rapacious imperial power it so obviously is, and openly tells us it is too.

I'm laughing but do agree.

Full text of "Michael Aquino (US Satanist) - From PSYOP to MindWar - The Psychology of Victory (1980).pdf (PDFy mirror)"

archive.org

 

[The Warlord]

This from WaPo, owned of course by Amazon, which I saw on Twitter, now repost here.

This is how Anglophone IW works. Trading off the reputation of Watergate at WaPo to give credibility to a patently false claim that then gets rapidly shared around the globe on multiple platforms

 

[Val Keating]

View attachment 1118217

This from WaPo, owned of course by Amazon, which I saw on Twitter, now repost here.

This is how Anglophone IW works. Trading off the reputation of Watergate at WaPo to give credibility to a patently false claim that then gets rapidly shared around the globe on multiple platforms

Did you see this tweet from one of the CCP Twitter accounts?



It reads. “China lighting a fire versus India lighting a fire”

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Bill Gates is getting divorced.

 

[koshari]

The average person honestly believes the US is a force for good in the world, and not the rapacious imperial power it so obviously is, and openly tells us it is too.

I don't think its really that cut and dry, like most injustices people tolerate them whom perceive to benefit from them, Self Interest is always the shortest priced starter.

 

[The Warlord]

 

[The Warlord]

 

[The Warlord]

I don't think its really that cut and dry, like most injustices people tolerate them whom perceive to benefit from them, Self Interest is always the shortest priced starter.

Oh I meant the average person in Australia/US/UK.