Rated-yet-underrated Players

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PhatBoy

PhatBoy

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Who are some players that are kind of acknowledged as being good/great but perhaps don’t quite get the recognition they deserve?

I got thinking about this the other day when reading up on Javed Miandad. When people talk about the great batsmen of that West Indies dominated era, the names that usually get all the recognition are Richards, Gavaskar, Border, Greenidge etc. I mean everyone knows Miandad could play but geez he got it done everywhere against everyone, he has a bloody outstanding record and career, seems like he gets overlooked a hell of a lot.

India had a few - Armanath is one. Averaged 51 outside India, gets overlooked a hell of a lot.

A more modern one is Younus Khan. Again, everyone ‘rates’ him but his record and longevity is bloody amazing to the point that it probably warrants more respect than he gets.
 
Agree on Miandad, and Younus Khan.

I'll add Inzamam-ul-Haq, Graeme Smith (I reckon), Makhaya Ntini, Graham Gooch, Marcus Trescothick (esp in ODIs), Sanath Jayasuriya, Chaminda Vaas.

To me the most underrated yet great player I have ever seen in cricket is Anil Kumble.

- 3rd highest wicket taker in Test Cricket
- Took 6/12 v. Windies in an ODI
- Took 105 wickets for Northamptonshire in 1995
- Leading wicket taker in the 1996 WC
- 10 wickets in an innings
- Took 49 wickets in Australia including 2 great series in 03/04 and 07/08. THe former series he was competing with Harbhajan.
- Bowled with a broken jaw
- Captained his country.
- Coached his country really well before the relationship between Kohli and him disintegrated
 

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Wolfs said:
Agree on Miandad, and Younus Khan.

I'll add Inzamam-ul-Haq, Graeme Smith (I reckon), Makhaya Ntini, Graham Gooch, Marcus Trescothick (esp in ODIs), Sanath Jayasuriya, Chaminda Vaas.

To me the most underrated yet great player I have ever seen in cricket is Anil Kumble.

- 3rd highest wicket taker in Test Cricket
- Took 6/12 v. Windies in an ODI
- Took 105 wickets for Northamptonshire in 1995
- Leading wicket taker in the 1996 WC
- 10 wickets in an innings
- Took 49 wickets in Australia including 2 great series in 03/04 and 07/08. THe former series he was competing with Harbhajan.
- Bowled with a broken jaw
- Captained his country.
- Coached his country really well before the relationship between Kohli and him disintegrated
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Hit a century as well.

Good call on Graeme Smith. His captaincy is universally lauded but his batting I think tends to be forgotten a bit - he was an enormous contributor at the top of the order, playing in arguably the hardest conditions in the world for an opening batsman
 
Wolfs said:
Agree on Miandad, and Younus Khan.

I'll add Inzamam-ul-Haq, Graeme Smith (I reckon), Makhaya Ntini, Graham Gooch, Marcus Trescothick (esp in ODIs), Sanath Jayasuriya, Chaminda Vaas.

To me the most underrated yet great player I have ever seen in cricket is Anil Kumble.

- 3rd highest wicket taker in Test Cricket
- Took 6/12 v. Windies in an ODI
- Took 105 wickets for Northamptonshire in 1995
- Leading wicket taker in the 1996 WC
- 10 wickets in an innings
- Took 49 wickets in Australia including 2 great series in 03/04 and 07/08. THe former series he was competing with Harbhajan.
- Bowled with a broken jaw
- Captained his country.
- Coached his country really well before the relationship between Kohli and him disintegrated
Click to expand...
TBH Kumble's longevity helped him reach some of those heights. I still think he was good but not great, like someone who plays 300 games but never got an All Australian.
 
Warnakulasuriya Patabendige Ushantha Joseph Chaminda Vaas.

355 wickets, mostly on pitches that were creates to conquer the strengths of fast bowlers. I remember Gilchrist writing in his book that the Australians feared Vaas more than Murali when they faced Sri Lanka. His 2003 World Cup was incredible.
 
Bradesmaen said:
TBH Kumble's longevity helped him reach some of those heights. I still think he was good but not great, like someone who plays 300 games but never got an All Australian.
Click to expand...

Undoubtedly longevity helped but as a spinner his numbers still qualify him as a great player. Warne and Murali throw out the mean for everyone else imo. Look at the other prolific spinners through post-war history - Gibbs, Vettori, Qadir, Bedi, Prasanna, Macgill etc. their numbers aren’t low 20s.

Lyon averages about 32 and we go on about him like he’s a world beater. He IS a very good bowler but let’s be honest if a quick had that record he probably wouldn’t have lasted that long.
 
PhatBoy said:
Undoubtedly longevity helped but as a spinner his numbers still qualify him as a great player. Warne and Murali throw out the mean for everyone else imo. Look at the other prolific spinners through post-war history - Gibbs, Vettori, Qadir, Bedi, Prasanna, Macgill etc. their numbers aren’t low 20s.

Lyon averages about 32 and we go on about him like he’s a world beater. He IS a very good bowler but let’s be honest if a quick had that record he probably wouldn’t have lasted that long.
Click to expand...
Neither are Kumbles numbers, he's just under 30. His S/R is 66 too, it's the stats of a good bowler, but not great bowler. Hence why he's rated where he is.
 

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Bradesmaen said:
Neither are Kumbles numbers, he's just under 30. His S/R is 66 too, it's the stats of a good bowler, but not great bowler. Hence why he's rated where he is.
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Mate even Warne’s strike rate is nearly 60.

As I said, he’s thrown the mean out for everyone. I’d say anyone that has a career of any length bowling spin since WW2 who’s averaging under 30 should be considered great. 30 is to spin what 25 is to pace IMO.

Bedi’s strike rate was 80, averaged 28.8
Prasanna 75 and 30
Even underwood who’s average was 25, had a strike rate of 75.
Qadir was 32 and 72, and for many he was rated the best legspinner between Oreilly and Warne.

If 600 wickets at 29 doesn’t earn you the great tag, then in reality you can count the great spinners of the last 75 years on one hand
 
PhatBoy said:
Mate even Warne’s strike rate is nearly 60.

As I said, he’s thrown the mean out for everyone. I’d say anyone that has a career of any length bowling spin since WW2 who’s averaging under 30 should be considered great. 30 is to spin what 25 is to pace IMO.

Bedi’s strike rate was 80, averaged 28.8
Prasanna 75 and 30
Even underwood who’s average was 25, had a strike rate of 75.
Qadir was 32 and 72, and for many he was rated the best legspinner between Oreilly and Warne.

If 600 wickets at 29 doesn’t earn you the great tag, then in reality you can count the great spinners of the last 75 years on one hand
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8 is a big difference.

I think you're falling into the same trap that commentators and columnists constantly fall into with footy players. Everyone is a star, or a superstar, rather than just ordinary/good players. I'm not saying he wasn't good, but it's not great. Warne and Murali were great. They are greats of the game. To say that Kumble was on the same level IMO is wrong. That is why he is not underrated, but rated fairly. He played 37 less innings than Warne, but bowled more balls don't forget too.
 
Bradesmaen said:
8 is a big difference.

I think you're falling into the same trap that commentators and columnists constantly fall into with footy players. Everyone is a star, or a superstar, rather than just ordinary/good players. I'm not saying he wasn't good, but it's not great. Warne and Murali were great. They are greats of the game. To say that Kumble was on the same level IMO is wrong. That is why he is not underrated, but rated fairly. He played 37 less innings than Warne, but bowled more balls don't forget too.
Click to expand...

You can be great without being as good as Warne mate. Kumble aside for a moment, while Warne wasn’t as good at bowling as Bradman was at batting, it’s worth noting that Bradman’s record doesn’t make, say, Sobers’ batting record not great.

Happy to agree to disagree.
 
PhatBoy said:
You can be great without being as good as Warne mate. Kumble aside for a moment, while Warne wasn’t as good at bowling as Bradman was at batting, it’s worth noting that Bradman’s record doesn’t make, say, Sobers’ batting record not great.

Happy to agree to disagree.
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Yes but Bradman is an outlier where as Sobers has a few around him (and different eras too). Kumble, Warne and Murali all played in the same era, infact Kumble debuted before Warne. One was named a cricketer of the century, one was not. Good but not great. I'm actually getting sick (not you particularly, just in general) of everyone being a star/great/whatever. There is nothing wrong with differentiating between who is good and who isn't. As soon as you do people get up in arms, like they do when I say Dangerfield isn't a great AFL player because he can't kick for peanuts.
 
Bradesmaen said:
Yes but Bradman is an outlier where as Sobers has a few around him (and different eras too). Kumble, Warne and Murali all played in the same era, infact Kumble debuted before Warne. One was named a cricketer of the century, one was not. Good but not great. I'm actually getting sick (not you particularly, just in general) of everyone being a star/great/whatever. There is nothing wrong with differentiating between who is good and who isn't. As soon as you do people get up in arms, like they do when I say Dangerfield isn't a great AFL player because he can't kick for peanuts.
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Look a lot of that is fair enough. I certainly come from the camp of people overestimating someone’s greatness - probably why I delve as deep into figures as I do because often they flatter people or in some cases don’t do someone justice.

As far as the footy analogy goes I think being picky to that degree is a tad harsh - danger’s kicking is mediocre compared to the league. It’s not actually that bad, it just seems bad compared to the other ‘stars’ in a lot of cases. However some of his other assets are significantly better than other elite players too. His marking for one. Of the high end guys, Fyfe is the only one in the same hemisphere. So to me, to use a cricket analogy, he’s like an elite batsman who is a bit weak on, say, the pull shot, but doesn’t let that weakness influence his general output. That’s my way of looking at it anyway.


I don’t think there have been many great spin bowlers in my lifetime. By the sound of it you’d say two - I’d say 3, (Herath is very very close) with a rider that Macgill and Saqlain were denied by longevity. Vettori i consider close to being a great cricketer but not a great bowler. Ashwin needs to deliver outside the subcontinent.
 
Makhaya Ntini is one of the best quicks I've seen yet never gets talked up as much as he deserves. Kumble a good shout, I think Nathan Bracken was underrated in ODI's as well.
 
eth-dog said:
Makhaya Ntini is one of the best quicks I've seen yet never gets talked up as much as he deserves. Kumble a good shout, I think Nathan Bracken was underrated in ODI's as well.
Click to expand...

Good to see the love for Ntini.
Universally respected but often gets left out of the elite group.

I think he hilights the fact that players’ styles often influence how they are perceived.

He was quick enough but not express, he wasn’t demonstrative, he was just a relentlessly accurate and willing bowler
 
Denkverbot said:
Kallis
Click to expand...

I think for most of his career he was in this category but by the end of it or in the years since, people have started to realise just how good he was, and he’s cited by everyone as probably the second-best all-round cricketer ever.

I would have really loved to see what he was capable of as a bowler if he specialised at it. Of course he probably benefitted from bowling all his overs alongside some of the best new ball attacks ever assembled so it made it easy for him to just chime in with a wicket or so per innings and keep his record steady.

But I always thought he was one of the most naturally gifted ‘heavy ball’ bowlers I’ve seen. Seemed to get it down there at 136-140 without any real effort, had a great bouncer, and a very good Yorker. The one that got Ricky Ponting at Adelaide was a peach.
 
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