Rated-yet-underrated Players

[Richard Pryor]

Mike Procter, Clive Rice, Eddie Barlow and Lee Irvine. Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock seem to be the guys to get the lions share of plaudits for being great South African cricketers during boycott.

 

[t_94]

Mike Procter, Clive Rice, Eddie Barlow and Lee Irvine. Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock seem to be the guys to get the lions share of plaudits for being great South African cricketers during boycott.

Vincent Van De Bijl

 

[Hellgood]

I think Ryan Harris gets a lot more plaudits than Stuart Clark, who was basically just as good, so Sarfraz gets my nod.

Gosh no.

Clark was good, but Harris was arguably best bowler in the world material.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Gosh no.

Clark was good, but Harris was arguably best bowler in the world material.

Their records are remarkably similar.

 

[Doss]

I see Harris as being better than Clark, reasonably comfortably too.

And it's not a matter of not rating Clark, because I did. But Harris was a better bowler.

 

[Gough]

I stand corrected.

He did indeed play home seies against WI and India and performed handsomly in both those series.

It's a matter of perspective I know, but I can't help feeling that WI at home in 1930-31 and India at home in 1947-48 were pretty much roadkkill for a Bradman led Australian team.

Again , it's totally hypothetical bit I wonder how Bradman would have performed against the rampant Windies sides of the 80's or against the Indian teams of the 90's onwards in India. I have a gut feeling that, that average of 99.4 might have been a little bit less

I also wonder what the test averages of A Border, G Chappell, Ponting, Hayden and S Smith would look like now if they din't have to play any tests away from home on the Sub-Continent or against the WI when they were total kings of cricket.

AB played against the West Indies at all their might for his entire career, there's no padding in his average. Even when we played s**t yeams, half the time we were worse. He's also still, and sadly likely to be the only man for some time to have scored 150+ in both innings in Pakistan. Dude is a living god.

 

[Randall Stevens]

I know this is like shooting Bambi but.....

.......Bradman is seriously overrated.

1 .Never played a test match away from home outside England. So never had to bat in India, Pakistan, West Indies, Bahgla Desh, NZ or Zimbabwe

2, In, Australia only ever played against England and SAF...and that's when the SAF's were piss poor minnows.

So in a nutshell, all his test runs were made in Australia and England on pretty flat wickets against mediocre opposition, except when the Poms under Jardine took him on with "bodyline" in 1932-33

In that series he averaged around 67, got bowled for a duck in the first test and mysteriously pulled out of a later test in that series due to "illness".

As an all wicket player against any opposition in any conditions, I've got Steve Smith comfotably as my best ever Auusie batsman/batter.

And, yes, I rate him ahead of Bradman

I'll start by admitting that like most people I'm a huge Bradman fan, he is one of my sporting idols despite retiring 25 years before I was born.

That said, the stats of his team mates are the best rebuttal of the often put argument that he played his career against weak opposition. Below are the career averages of the more highly rated batsmen he played with during his 20 year career:

Bill Ponsford (team of the century opener) 48.22
Arthur Morris (team of the century opener) 46.48
Bill Woodfull (Australian captain) 46.00
Vic Richardson (Australian captain) 23.53
Stan McCabe 48.21
Bill Brown 46.82
Neil Harvey 48.41

Unless I've overlooked anyone, those are the best batsmen Bradman played with, and he averaged better than double each of them (Harvey's first series was Bradman's last, so they played largely in different eras).

The argument about not batting in overseas conditions is of course unprovable either way. However, the only overseas series he missed in his career was in SA. You have already argued (fairly) that they were relative minnows at that stage, and indeed in that series in SA three Australian bats averaged 59 or better, including two 79 or better.

I would also argue that he didn't get to play as many home series against truly weak opposition as modern players.

On the Bodyline series, he actually missed the first Test with illness, then played the last 4. Yes, he scored a duck in the first innings of the MCG Test, but then 102 n.o in the second innings. Not wanting to nitpick, but I assume the implication was that he 'squibbed' a later Test with illness?

On your contention in an a later post re facing the West Indies, I agree that would have been the ultimate Test. His average may have dropped somewhat, but I still think he would have done a lot better than anyone else! Interestingly, of those players you listed only AB played his whole career against the might of their pace bowling. If you remove WI Tests his career average goes from 50.5 to 54 (roughly). Chappell actually averaged more (56 v career 53.5) against WI, bearing in mind that he started his career before they really emerged as world class.

Finally, when discussing the opponents and conditions Bradman played in v modern players, it must be remembered that in Bradman's era they played on uncovered pitches which were therefore quite regularly wet, something the modern players never have to deal with.

So, while subjectively Bradman's average may have been lower in modern times, playing on covered, batsman friendly pitches with smaller boundaries and bigger bats, he may have averaged 105-110!

 

[Wallaby]

So, while subjectively Bradman's average may have been lower in modern times, playing on covered, batsman friendly pitches with smaller boundaries and bigger bats, he may have averaged 105-110!

Doubt it - he's been dead for 15 years.

I reckon 70-75 tops.

 

[Kyptastic]

I think Ryan Harris gets a lot more plaudits than Stuart Clark, who was basically just as good, so Sarfraz gets my nod.

Harris has more 'blockbuster' moments than Clark (Cook ball, Cape Town 2014) that stick in the mind. Plus, he basically played a career on one knee which increases his reputation.

 

[Sammo360]

Ross Taylor

 

[Denkverbot]

Ross Taylor

Agreed. Have NZ produced a better batsman?

You could argue Williamson, Turner or Crowe but his limited overs work is amazing too.

He's definite top 4 all time for NZ, possible #1 IMO.

 

[Kyptastic]

Agreed. Have NZ produced a better batsman?

You could argue Williamson, Turner or Crowe but his limited overs work is amazing too.

He's definite top 4 all time for NZ, possible #1 IMO.

Donnelly and Sutcliffe would be up there as well.

Cricinfo did best XIs of all time back in 09 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/429010.html. You'd imagine that all of Taylor, Williamson, McCullum and Boult would make that team these days.

 

[Marcus DuQuesne]

Read this article, thought of this thread.
http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1134499/for-the-love-of-snow
John Snow.

Well worth the read tks for that. My first test match was Eng v Oz at the G in 70/71...John Snow was awesome(modern vernacular) beautiful run up and delivery stride and quick. Denis Lillee had the same aura. Two "great" fast bowlers.

 

[Marcus DuQuesne]

Mike Procter, Clive Rice, Eddie Barlow and Lee Irvine. Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock seem to be the guys to get the lions share of plaudits for being great South African cricketers during boycott.

Ken McKewan was pretty handy as well...hit the ball hard. Excellent record in county cricket.

 

[Gough]

Had a couple of years with WA too.

 

[Hamingja]

Gosh no.

Clark was good, but Harris was arguably best bowler in the world material.

Clark needed to miracously start bowling 20km/h quicker mid career...

 

[Oaktree]

Shivnarine Chanderpaul.

Carried the West Indies middle order the majority of his career. When Lara retired, was clearly their number 1 bat, but was still underrated to the likes of Gayle and Sarwan at various times.

Got dropped very swiftly after two lacklustre series after years of consistency.

 

[PhatBoy]

Shivnarine Chanderpaul.

Carried the West Indies middle order the majority of his career. When Lara retired, was clearly their number 1 bat, but was still underrated to the likes of Gayle and Sarwan at various times.

Got dropped very swiftly after two lacklustre series after years of consistency.

Hmm I think he was underrated compared to the rest of his generation, but not to the rest of his team. His machine like output was also tempered somewhat by a general lack of playing to the game situation too. Don’t get me wrong, I’d take chanderpaul knocking up a slow hundred than a quick 35, but the longer his career went, seemingly the less flexible he became even though his run scoring was still mint

 

[Oaktree]

Hmm I think he was underrated compared to the rest of his generation, but not to the rest of his team. His machine like output was also tempered somewhat by a general lack of playing to the game situation too. Don’t get me wrong, I’d take chanderpaul knocking up a slow hundred than a quick 35, but the longer his career went, seemingly the less flexible he became even though his run scoring was still mint

Yeah, I was definitely referring to him amongst his generation.

I agree with you that he didn't seem to turn it the pace as some others when wickets were falling.

To his defence he was often let down by his teammates inability to rack up solid contributions which may have resulted in this approach.

 

[Wolfs]

James Anderson.

When he bowled in Asia, he bowls well. People don't give him the dues that he deserves.

 

[90N90S]

VVS silk.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sourav Ganguly.

Not quite in the top two tiers with Tendulkar, Dravid, Segway, Laxman of that era, but quality player, c*** of a bloke but one who gave his side a spine. Played a ripping innings in Brisbane in 03-04 to make sure his side earned a draw.

 

[sobrave]

Clark needed to miracously start bowling 20km/h quicker mid career...

I must admit this thought had crossed my mind

 

[Hellgood]

Clark needed to miracously start bowling 20km/h quicker mid career...

I must admit this thought had crossed my mind

I also recall the surprise at his remarkable transformation from medium pace trundler to one of the sharpest bowlers in the world.

Reading Harris' biography only time he really touched on it was one day bowling in a shield game the keeper Manou came up to him at the end of the over and said words to the effect of "s**t when did you get so quick" and he never looked back in terms of the pace he bowled.

I can't recall analysing his action much in his younger days so can't say with much certainty if it was simply finding his natural rhythm?

 

[sobrave]

I also recall the surprise at his remarkable transformation from medium pace trundler to one of the sharpest bowlers in the world.

Reading Harris' biography only time he really touched on it was one day bowling in a shield game the keeper Manou came up to him at the end of the over and said words to the effect of "s**t when did you get so quick" and he never looked back in terms of the pace he bowled.

I can't recall analysing his action much in his younger days so can't say with much certainty if it was simply finding his natural rhythm?

Wouldn't surprise me if PEDs were involved.

Going from 125k trundlers to full sessions at 145kmh, with a trashed knee, mid career...

A froome-esque transformation